tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. first up tonight, a look at what the fall of muammar qaddafi means for libya, the middle east and the united states. mansour el-kikhia has been in contact with rebel leaders who have assumed leadership role in the north african nation. also tonight we mark the passing of two music legends, jerry leiber and nick ash ford. tonight we'll bring you leiber and stoller from their visit here in 2009. nick ashford and his wife valerie simpson co-wrote some of

the biggest songs in motown history. next tuesday night we'll bring you a memorable hour with ashford and simpson also recorded on this very same stage in 2009. remembering two songwriting giants coming up right now. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where wal-mart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and answer, help tavis improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> at toyota, we celebrate dimpingses and the people who make them. -- differences and the people

who make them. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. kcet public television] tavis: the fall of muammar qaddafi represents great opportunities and challenges for libya and the middle east. pleased tonight to be joined by mansour kickia. -- el-kikhia. he joins us tonight again from san antonio. professor, good to have you back on this program. >> thank you very having me, tavis. tavis: let me start with the obvious with the conversation we had months ago when we didn't

know how this thing was going to work out. what do you make out of what's happening in libya? >> justice. the conclusion. elation, numbness combined all into one. tavis: yeah, as we speak at this moment, we don't know where muammar qaddafi is at this moment. that could change at any second now. but what is your sense when he is found, if and when he surfaces, what ought to happen to him specifically? >> i think, obviously i think he needs to be tried. he needs to be tried for the atrocities he committed. i understand. the last six months 13,000 libyans have died. 30,000 are wounded. 28,000 are missing. besides how much money was spent on this awful adventure that he has done, most of these, from where he brought them.

he needs to be brought down to reality and put before the libyans and the libyans have to face him with what he has done. tavis: i mentioned earlier, you have been in touch with this transitional council, this transitional authority. it occurs to me and many others that whatever we thought of qaddafi, we do not know who these new persons are. what are we to make of whoever is going to be in charge, whoever is going to be in control and again the fact that we really don't know much about them. >> well, you know, they are really a group of people who decided to take on the responsibility of leading. they did it individually and they are quietly achieving some legitimacy. they have committed themselves to only being temporary. they are not going to run for office anymore. they have a plan in action which would allow for the election of

a new legitimate government which would do the elections by the constitution and bring it before the people and ultimately create these permanent structures. it is made up of individuals representing a cross section of libyan society. you have people who actually worked with qaddafi in a previous life. they have people who worked outside the united states. some professors from the u.s. some from england. and then you communists, progressive. it is a mixture of libyan society. >> but to your point, professor, they do not have the kind of infrastructure in place that they can walk into. you will admit that given all the trouble that we see the egyptians having trying to right their society as it were, trying to let democracy get a hold of

egypt, we look at all the obstacles that they are up against, there was some structure in egypt, why should i believe this road is going to be an easy road in libya where they don't to your point have any kind of infrastructure in place, political ily or otherwise. >> it is not easy at all. it is one of -- because let me tell you. of to have three revolutions, libya is the most profound. in egypt and tunisia, the revolution was against the regimes that were there. the heads of these states had been removed. but the structure is still there. the parties that were there are still there. the problem, these are societies, they are still there. it is not going to go away. with the new head in egypt or

tunisia, i want to -- they will face more difficulty in dealing with these issues than somebody from libya. libya is something new. qaddafi destroyed all structures. there is nothing. did not allow institutions to emerge or parties, nothing. so the new people were coming in. they are going to see a huge, huge problem. one month at another. the issue over here is that the sky is the limit. they can put a new system in place which would be of the libyans. it is not going to be easy. it is going to be very, very tough. it has to be incremental. tavis: we were just reading days ago during this crisis that they were making their way toward tripoli trying topple the qaddafi regime. we read stories about the infighting amongst this transitional group itself.

what say you about that infighting? >> well, there is some infighting. it is difference of opinion infight. it is healthy. in a way i'm glad there is some difference of opinion and people holding on to their points of view. i think it is important. when you say infighting, none of them has an army or forces they can bring to bear. so what you see, some problems yes. the east of the country is relatively unified compared to the rest of libya. it is less tribal than the rest. the west sees itself as being more progressive and dominant. it has more people over there, of course, too. they want things done their own way. i understand this. in the new system that we're going to see, you're going to see a give and take. i'm happy that some of these

issues are emerging now. before problems occur. tavis: but president obama said that we're going to be a friend with libya so long as they stay on the path to democracy and not revenge. that we will be there to support them and to help them. to your mind, what ought that mean? what should we be suggesting when we say we're willing to be an ally, to be a friend, to be a supporter in the coming months and years? >> i think it is a wonderful blueprint for a new system in libya. the sky the limit. i would very much like to see a federal system with to allow for balance of power and checks and balances and a bill of rights that guarantees freedoms of expression, equality among all. libya needs this. you know, i think mr. obama is very, very smart. he really is. sometimes we don't give the man

the credit that he is due. i think what he is asking for libya in libya is asking for a democratic system which would, in fact, when you think about it, will be the nucleus for the system. i look forward to seeing more regimes, africa, topple like qaddafi and people coming to power. tavis: i hear your response but what i'm asking you is what role now specifically should the u.s. play in the coming months and years to help bring about what you just suggested you would like to see? >> well, first of all, what i really went to america to see america do is divide the guidance from the administration, the constitution, the framework. perhaps what we can do here, we can avoid some of the pitfalls that america is facing right now. ok? this is the perfect time to do it. that we can learn from america's

experience. we would like to see some good american constitutional lawyers and think to help libya in developing that. developing a decent police force that respects the rights of the people. respects the people. we need to develop a strong military well trained and professional. protect the state. all of these america can do. tavis: that, professor, sounds to some watching now, that sounds a little bit like nation building. >> it is. it is part of that but at least issue over here is there is a very big difference between having 170,000 troops trying to do that and having bureaucrats and civilians doing that. i approve of the nation building. if america will not help us do it, we will have to turn to britain and france and germany

and italy. tavis: since you mentioned president obama's name earlier, with all respect from the president, he has been catching it from both sides on libya, on one hand he has gotten some credit for shepherding to this moment at least in libya what we have seen happen what most people are celebrating. on the other hand there are those trying to give him a hard time saying he didn't really engage. this is not really because of his decisive act inside the white house. your sense of the credit or not so much credit that the president ought to get for what has happened in libya. >> if he is waiting to get permission from those guys right now, you would have 100,000 people dead in my city, including maybe my family. i thank mr. obama for doing this. he can meet the challenges and criticism that those guys are throwing at him by saying we have won. there is nothing sweeter than

victory. victory has been achieved. democracy will be established in libya. a transparent system will be established in libya and that is a benefit of the united states. president obama will be given credit for that no matter what they say. tavis: up next we remember two legendary songwriters now gone. nick ashford and jerry leiber. we will never forget the day nick ashford and his beautiful wife valerie simpson joined us on this stage back in 2009. they joined us for a conversation about their remarkable lives and career, a career that includes one of the most iconic songs in all of music history, "ain't no mountain high enough." what was it about this duo, about your style, what did you

tap into when you started writing all of these hits that worked so well? >> when nick came up with the idea of "ain't no mountain high enough" it was coming from such a real place. he was walking down central park west. >> i was walking down central park west and the buildings were so tall and i was so hung rained pitiful at the time -- hungry and pitiful at the time. i had no friends. i couldn't see the sky or nothing. i said ain't no mountain high enough. the words just fell out of my mouth, really. tavis: next tuesday night we'll bring you that entire conversation or you can check it out at any time by visiting our website at pbs.org. also in 2009 we were paid a visit by the legendary songwriting duo, jerry leiber and mike stoller. they wrote classics like "hound dog" for elvis pressly.

they joined us that talk about their memoir called "hound dog." let me start with ow how music impacted you as kids. you were you grew up in queens and you grew up in baltimore. >> i think the first piece of music i ever heard that i really loved "dances" by straws. i played that -- di strauss. i played that and i would just keep playing it and playing it. then i heard "boogie boogie when i was eight years old. i went to a summer camp in new jersey and it was -- it was a totally interracial camp back in

1940. tavis: that is rare. >> very rare. very unusual. and very left wing of course at that time because anything that was interracial was considered subversive and left wing. and paul would come up and sing to us and woody guthrie. really subversive. tavis: but you got exposed to such an eclectic. >> i heard a young black pianist. he was a teenager. i was 8 years old. he was playing "boogie woogie" and he just nothinged me out. he thought he was a-- knocked me out. he thought he was alone but i was hiding in the corner so he wouldn't see me. tavis: so the black music hooked you early on? >> yes. tavis: jerry, what about you? what is your first memory about

music when your a kid in baltimore? >> the first memory i had was my sister's dancing. to the radio. when they would play records by benny goodman and henry james of the sort but the record that got me was a record by derek sampson who was a young guy called "boogie express" and it was "boogie woogie." really that was on fire. that got me. later on, i was around 10 or 11 then, later on, i was about 16 or 17. my family had moved to l.a. from baltimore and i was working as a busboy in a restaurant and one day i was busing dishes and i passed the sous chef who was smeeg cigarette. he had -- smoking a cigarette. he had the radio playing, the

disc jockey playing records. qut ain't nobody's business" which got me. i thought to myself. i can do that. [laughter] tavis: it is fascinating that "boogie woogie" hit boat of you at different times but it got to both of you. >> the strongest music at that time was "boogie woogie." >> it is amazing to me that both of you were impacted by that long before you ever came together. it is fascinating. in coming together, what cemented to relationship was finding out that we shared that and it took a while to figure out that we shared it because jerry called me, he got my phone number from a schoolmate of his who was a drummer and i played piano at a dance in east l.a.

and the drummer took my phone number. and i thought i was going to get some more $3 gigs, you know? but he gave, fortunately, he gave my phone number to jerry who was looking for somebody to write notes on paper. tavis: so tell us the story how you two connected then and became a songwriting duo. >> actually jerry called me and he said are you mike stoller? i said yep. and then he said you play the piano? i said yep. he said did you play the piano in -- at a dance in los angeles? tavis: let me guess. and you said yep? >> you got it. then he said can you write notes on paper?

tavis: and you said yep. >> and then he said my name is jerome leiber. i write lyrics. how would you like to write songs with me and i said nope. [laughter] tavis: why did you say no, no jerry leiber? >> because i thought that he would be writing some things that would be very uninteresting to me. some kind of pop floating down the river on a sunday afternoon or something that i was interested. i was very present the, about it at the time. i was interested in bee bop. i wanted to be a jazz musician. i gave that up when i realized i wasn't as good as i wanted to be or not even nearly. at any rate, he asked me well, what do you like if you don't like songs?

i said well, i like charlie parker and bartok and stra vicinity ski. >> i thought it was -- stravissky. >> i thought it was a butcher use house. i said come over. as i recall, as i was putting the receiver down, the doorbell rang. tavis: are you on national tv to concede that mr. leiber was right 60 years later? >> well, he was determined. tavis: he was right. just say it. you guys have done some good stuff together. you guys have written for so many people. i want to get your response. so jerry leiber, when i say elvis presley to you. talk to me about elvis presley.

>> elvis presley. you can't define him in a couple of sentences. but he was a country boy. he was very respectful. he said yes, sir to us. and we both liked him. he was unabashed. he was absolutely excellent in his performances. he never did more than two or three takes of anything when we were used to doing 30 or 40 takes of everything. he was very friendly and very well behaved but he was very private. but he also -- we also learned by hanging around him the amount of time that we did, that he had this vast knowledge of the blues. and we were surprised because we didn't meet any white boys that had that going.

tavis: but then you go on to write big hits like "jailhouse rock." >> that one was written in a hotel room with three other songs. we were kind of trapped in this hotel room by the music publisher and he said you guys are not leaving. you have had a script for two weeks. i'm not letting you out of here until i have my songs and so in order to get out, we wrote four songs. tavis: how do you work under pressure like that? >> very well. [laughter] tavis: that's amazing. when you look back on what -- what is catalogged in this book, what you have been able to do over 60 years, what do you think of your catalog? are you happy with it? >> i like it a whole lot. >> i'm happy with it. i think it is missing some stuff that we have to do yet. >> a lot of the things that are missing are already written but

not recorded. a number of things are in the infancy. there may be a chorus or a refrain that has to be finished. tavis: how much stuff would you say? >> there were some bosanovas that don't have lyrics. tavis: waiting on you to write these lyrics, jerry leiber. [laughter] so you got a bunch of stuff, though, that could be recorded. >> we got a lot of stuff. a lot of ideas. a lot of beginnings. tavis: if i could sing, i would take a leiber/stoller composition any day. >> give us a half-hour. [laughter] tavis: jerry leiber died this week at the age of 78. nick ashford was just 70. tuesday night we'll bring you to entire conversation with ashford and simpson or you can access it

by visiting our website at pbs.org. that's our show for tonight. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time with our two-part special on martin luther king. that's next time. we'll see you then. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or boulevard, but a place where wal-mart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and answer,

nationwide insurance proud to work with tavis in helping to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles to economic empowerment one conversation at a time. nationwide is on your side. >> at toyota, we celebrate differences and the people who make them. toyota, proud supporter of the washington, d.c. martin luther king jr. national memorial project foundation. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. d

i took it into a shop once and they said-- they thought it was probably worth perhaps £100 but i ought to get it looked at by such as yourself to get a value on it. so you really would like to know the value? well, i think it is for me something that really appeals. this reminds me of when i wake up in the morning, i have a big fig tree in my garden full of birds. but of course i don't see little things like these parakeets which are absolutely, beautifully done, with their little pink cheeks. and what's so nice about this is you've got all the shading in the leaf, which is extraordinary when you think this is actually made of bronze. it's bronze, bronze birds, bronze leaf,

- cold painted. - yeah. and there's one factory that really comes to mind when you look at something like this, which is the bergman factory. now normally things like this you'd expect it to be marked. if you turn it upside down, there is a mark. and many people fall into the trap here. and all this says is "patent applied for." - oh, right. - so that's not the mark. and bergman things are very collectible. - yes. - this is-- has got all that appeal, it's got real sex appeal in my view. well, i think there are many people who would like something like this-- the vibrancy, the sheer delight of it. and a conservative estimate for this would be somewhere in the region of £1,200 to 1,500. really? gosh. that's a bit more than £100, isn't it? yes. my husband thought it was the top of a walking stick. - what do you think it's made of? - i don't know. horn, a horn of some kind.

you're right. it is a horn. that's absolutely spot-on. it looks a bit like plastic, doesn't it? but it is horn. this is actually inlaid in ivory, those pieces and stained. and it's in the form of a cicada, i think. and it's japanese. and it dates from probably the middle of the 19th century. and those two holes are the clue as to what it is. it's actually a netsuke. it's worn at the waistband like that. i think it's a very unusual and rare object. i think you wouldn't have much trouble getting around £1,000 for it. good heavens. - bit of a shock? - good heavens. well, it is a big shock. good. - thank you. - i'll look at it with different eyes. well done.