>> good evening, from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. first up, our renowned but old fears. in the wake of 9/11, he treated independence day. it will probably take place in new york city. we also will talk about what the last 10 years have meant for the arab world. he is out with an updated paperback edition of his acclaimed book -- "no god but god." >> every community has a more to mr. king boulevard. it is the cornerstone of we all

know. it is not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your committee to make everyday better. >> nationwide supports tavis smiley. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions by your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: i am proud to say that this year, i will be taking part

in the conference that has special meaning on this 10th anniversary of the attacks. dr. barbara, it is always good to have you on this program. >> thank you so much. i want to get to interdependence day in a moment. tennis let me begin by asking you -- where was ben barber when the attacks took place. >> i was at the university of maryland when i thought i saw the television could i managed to climb aboard a troop train going from washington to new york because they sealed off new york. i got back around 6:00 p.m. and joined my family and the heavy smoke of those attacks that evening. i was there that evening of that rufus -- that terrific day 10 years ago. tavis: what are your thoughts of these attacks 10 years later?

>> it is a very special weekend. for those who lost loved ones, for the country, it was a horrendous attack on the united states, in what we believe in, and what we stand for. but what i think about most when i think about 9/11, is that we have not altogether seized on the opportunity that it gave us. on the one hand, it was a dreadful and terrible attack on the united states and what we believe. at the same time, it was a signal that we were living in a new world, they look -- a world of interdependence, the world where people could attack the united states not from the outside, but from the inside, not bringing weapons across borders, but seizing weapons and -- but seizing airplanes and turning them into weapons. borders do not matter any more. the real lesson of 9/11 that we

still have to learn is that this is a world of interdependence in which all the challenges of the environment and climate change, of jobs, the president talking about immigration, of disease and war and terrorism -- these are cross border problems that cannot be met one nation at a time. >> so out of the horrendous and horrific attacks of 9/11, you started this international form called interdependence. i participated in it every year. every year, we travel to a different country around the world. this year, interdependence day will be in new york city. tell the audience more about the organization and the work you do every year around this annual conference. >> we know it is a very special, almost holy day in which we look back at those who lost their lives and americans who have sacrificed and victims of

terrorism and oppression of through the world. we wanted to make the day after 9/11, september 12, the day to look forward, to think about the future. how do we respond to terrorism? how do we respond to weapons of mass destruction and had to respond to poverty, to predatory markets. can we create a world where there is an alternative to terrorism other than a war on terrorism? september 12 became, in philadelphia, the first year in 2003, then in rome, in paris, in casablanca, in mexico city, in brussels -- this became a day to look at the future. it is to ask this vital question. if all of the forces and challenges that we face are cross border challenges, challenges of a brute in the -- a bridge interdependence, how can we respond to those challenges with 18th-century

institutions -- in sovereignty, nationality, and independence. independence used to be the ticket for liberty. get your independence and you get liberty and justice for all. but now, whether it is the arab spring or indirect or here in the united states, it means working corporate elite is a cooperative way and into independently. what we have tried to focus on is the challenges in creating interdependent civic and cultural institutions as cooperative borders for all the problems that we face. tavis: since you mentioned the arab spring, how does what is happening in the middle east -- i know you have been to libya in years past -- how has what happened in that part of the world challenged this notion of interdependence? >> it is my belief that part of

the problem of getting from the remarkable and inspiring arab spring to a real arab summer without first going to winter, which it looks like it could happen is some of these countries, is that these countries have to work together. you will not get liberty and justice in egypt alone, or syria alone or bahrain or tunisia. they need to be working together, across borders, and cooperative verot spring which is truly a north african and arab spring. we will have a much better chance of succeeding rather than try to do it in a special concept of tunisia or egypt or libya. there is a tremendous challenge after the disappearance of the gaddafis to unite their 140 tribes to create a democratic summer. they will do it if they work with the conditions and the

egyptians and the lebanese. even there, it is part of how real democracy is likely to emerge in the countries of the arab spring. tavis: it is impossible to have this conversation tonight and not ask about the president's job speech heard not long ago around this country and around the world. it was fascinating to me to look at the research and look at the last time you were on this program, about a year ago. you know were talking then about the fact that the president had put health care reform behind him, but whenever a definition anyone wants to use, he won on the health care. he got something passed. you were telling me a year ago on this program that now the parents of and can now turn his attention to jobs. -- the president can now turn

his attention to jobs. if i had a dime for every time the president said and now and now we can turn to jobs -- now he has given a major speech on jobs. what say ben barber that we will now have a serious conversation about jobs? >> let me go on the record again. [laughter] we will now talk about jobs. one of the ironies is that we're talking about jobs in america. but you cannot talk about jobs in america without talking about jobs in mexico or the lack of jobs in mexico, jobs in guatemala, jobs and the sahara, jobs in egypt. i know in parochial america with our media focused on america, it is hard to do that and the president has a real challenge. but we have to put jobs also in the context of the world market,

of the global immigration market. people talk about illegal immigration. by the laws of the land, people will come looking for jobs in america are illegal. by the laws of economics, they are falling the logic and laws of economics when they leave guatemala and go to mexico, leave mexico and come to the u.s., leave africa and to spain and europe looking for jobs. we need that context. i hope the president will inaugurate not just more talk about jobs, but action about jobs as well. that has to be at the center of any interest dependence agenda. >tavis: i am anxious to get out of those to be a little bit -- out of the studio a little bit. are there any events, as i head to new york -- i have seen the rundown. you have a stellar list of participants and speakers and discussions and performances. is there anything open to the public in new york city this weekend? >> we will be open on sunday. we will be at lincoln center

starting at 11:00 a.m., right through 6:00 p.m. and on monday all day long, three-legged dog. on sunday, with tavis and our good friend cornell west, lebron, mohammed, kathleen kennedy townsend, joshed fox, the man who made that wonderful film "gasland." then at 80 greenwich avenue, we will have a film maker who won their first interdependence film award. we will have the president of ireland, mary robinson, the president of bard college. after that, we will have a hip- hop concert with artists from england and the united states.

if you go to independencemovement.org, you can make reservations. we are open to the public, but there is limited seating. it will be an exciting program. tavis will be headlining there. tavis: stop, stop. i want to add quickly because we travel around the world. this year, we call this the 10th anniversary sadly of 9/11 and we will be in new york and we hope you will be there to commemorate and celebrate independence day. ben barber founder of this wonderful worker and i will see you in a matter of days. >> see you this weekend, tavis. we continue our look 10 years later with scholar reza

aslan. he is a religious scholar. as we approach the 10th anniversary, he is also a member of the council on foreign relations. it is always good to have you. >> it is free to be back. tavis: this is certainly possible in the middle east that you cover so well. it seems to me that the world has changed at least three times since you were last year. for get the book, the last time you're on this set. >> since this terrible attack on new york and d.c., this ideology that was a lesson in 10 years ago, the decade is ending with this new ideology that has finally put to the final nail on the coffin of al qaeda. it is amazing to see this profound transformation in 10 years' time. tavis: what do you think is responsible for this profound

transformation. >> it is an opportunity to finally be heard. thesewill force that thi western dictatorships for years. it was the perfect storm. they were finally able to take advantage of these communication technologies to communicate with each other and, more importantly, with the outside world. once it got started, it was only a matter of time that it would catch fire. tavis: 10 of the risk of getting health of the central -- at the risk of getting us both in trouble, people get touchy and politics and it tends to offend people. i do not need to do that. but looking at this decade and the challenge and the overthrow of these western-backed dictatorships, what role do we take? how culpable is the u.s. in this

stuff lingering as long as it did, honestly, given that these dictators were western-backed? >> it is better to support a single dictator than to allow the people to have a voice for themselves because our interests are economic interests, national security interests, and are better served by these dictators. we know now that that has been false. we know that we have gotten neither democracy nor stability out of that deal. the fact is that a lot of the problems we have had with the rise of islamic radicalism and extremism with groups like al qaeda, even groups like the taliban, have been directly part of the foreign policy decisions that we have made in the region that have been so predicated on our own interests at the expense of the interest of the people of the middle east. that has changed. we can talk all day about what is different now about the middle east. what are these -- and what do these revolutions really mean?

what is more important for americans to understand is that the old relationship that we used to have with this region is over. the days where we thought that all that mattered was a good comfortable relationship with one guy in charge, is over. now have to understand that the moors, values, elkins, interests, aspirations of the people of the middle east have to be at the forefront of our minds. i really hope that president obama managers to shift american foreign policy in that direction. tavis: what is the danger with a dancing with the w. quintano vs dancing with the devil you -- with of the devil you know vs dancing with the devil you cannot noknow? >> the question is moot. it does not really matter anymore. this is what we have now. it may be a little bit uncomfortable. it may be difficult to know exactly what kind of government orl rise anin libya

elsewhere. but the point is that this is where we have this is -- this is what we have appeared a can help them financially and politically or we can continue to pretend that we can somehow go back to the old days in which there is this one guy who is in their back pocket. tavis: to your credit, six years or seven years ago, you were out front saying that there would be this huge surge. he predicted that young people would rise up. you knew it was already coming down the pike. with regard to the new edition of "no god but god, " " what surprised you of what you had to rewrite or revisit or what surprised you in the updated

edition? >> the role of women. i did talk a lot about that, this surge of islamic feminism. women all over the world and try to reconcile their feminine identity with their religious faith and not allowing men to speak for them any longer about what the corps on means and says about them, what islam says koran says-- what the core ro about them, what islam says about them. the role that women have played in the political sphere, that is an exciting development. tavis: hasn't really changed that much for women? >> it really has. it goes back to this youth surge. we're talking about 75% under the age of 35. this is an intelligent, well- educated, globalized group. there on the internet and get satellite tv.

they see the world around them. they do not share their parent'' ideas of traditional gender roles. we have to do is look at the crowds at tahrir square in egypt. it was men and women side by side fighting together. it was the same thing in iran in 2009 with the green movement. in a way, young people do not have those same sticking point when it comes to the old ways of gender relations. it is one of many things of their parents' generation that they have discarded. the other issue, of course, is the role of the internet. i talk a lot about the internet and how it is completely changing a worldwide community of faith, the uma. what is fascinating is web to porno in creating the virtual -- what is fascinating is web 2.0

in trading a virtual suicide, when you have a billion and a half muslims, what is fascinating with facebook and twitter and all of this social media technology is that new communities are starting to form so that this kid in indonesia has more in common with a muslim kid in las vegas that he does with anyone in his own community. new communities, and is forming on line. tavis: -- new communities, new identities forming on line. tavis: is it leading to just overthrow or to democratization? those are very different things. >> they are very different things. when you look at tunisia and egypt and now libya and hopefully, very soon syria and yemen, we have a ways to go from the revolution to democracy. it is a long path. we have been on it for 250

years and we're still trying to figure it out. what social media has done -- you can exaggerate it, of course -- but there's one thing we can all agree on. it has finally broken the monopoly that these authoritarian regimes of had on the levers of communication. if you live in egypt or libya or into news show or in syria, four years ago, one man had control over the television, over the radio, over what you read, over what you saw, over how you communicated with each other, or how you communicated with the outside world. that is over. and you do not need a leader that one person that is the democracy activists, the gondi in the front to lead everyone together. now you need a mobile texting network. all of a sudden, you can go from 1000 people to 100,000 people to 1 million people on the streets at once. it is a global revolution, not just a revolution in the middle east. tavis: what do these

geopolitical shift in the region mean ultimately for the u.s. and its relation to the region? i am always afraid to ask that question, the region, because the region itself is so different. >> it is a very diverse region. i think we have a golden opportunity. president obama cantu par wanting to change the relationship between the united states and the became to power wanting to change the relationship between the united states and the muslim world. but now he has been given a gift on a silver platter. these young people want a different relationship with the united states. this is not an anti-american revolution. this is a pro-democracy, a pro- dignity, a human-rights revolution. it is important for the administration to be out in

front, not just with words, but also with money. we give the egyptian military $2 billion a year to buy weapons and tear gas and tanks, etc., not to save themselves from an outside force, but to save themselves from internal disruption. how about half of that money goes to building schools, building civilian infrastructure, building the democratic infrastructure necessary to create a peaceful transition? tavis: is that not nation- building? >> it is, but nation building on the cheap. people gave obama a lot of flak for "leading from behind" with regard to libya. but let's talk about what that looked like. in six months, the dictator is gone and it cost $1 billion. i am sure that is how much we spent in a couple of hours in iraq. tavis: the one thing that you would argue 10 years after 9/11, that we can most do as a nation in this region, the thing we can

do most to make sure those lives lost 10 years ago were not lost in vain? >> we were trying for 10 years to defeat al qaeda, both as a terrorist organization -- we have done a marvelous job doing it -- but also as an idea, as an ideology, as a movement, which we did not do a very good job at doing. it was the bush generation vs. us mentality and it was a disaster. even to those who may not have agreed with al qaeda, but nevertheless decided that, if it comes to being on one side or the other, i choose the other. the people on the streets of egypt and tunisia and libya and syria and iran have done more to distinct the ideology of al qaeda than anything the u.s. has done. you can have an end to dictatorship with peaceful protest and a role for human

dignity and their role for your religious faith in society. if we can support that, if we can help them make this transition to a stable democracy, that, in and of itself, it is more that we can do to destroy the ideology behind islamic terrorism than any action, any bomb, or any amount of money that we have spent. tavis: it is an international best seller -- "no god but. god" thank you so much for watching. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis pbs.org.at >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard.

it is the cornerstone of we all know. it is not just a street or boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. nationwide insurance is proud to join tavis to improve literacy. nationwide is on your side. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. you. thank you. >> be