tavis: good evening. smiley. tonight, -- i am tavis smiley. tonight, a conversation with "mad men" creator, matthew weiner. "mad men" returns for its fifth season. it has taken home the emmy for best television drama in each of its first four seasons. we are glad you were able to join us. a conversation with "mad men" creatormatthew weiner, coming up right -- creator matthew weiner, coming right up. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or

boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis please welcome -- tavis: please welcome matthew weiner. he has the most critically acclaimed drama on television, "mad men," which returns this sunday night with a special two- hour show. as i mentioned at the top, it has won an emmy in each of its four seasons. first, a scene from "mad men." [bell]

>> i do not know if you have heard, but i fired joey. >> good for you. >> excuse me? >> now everybody in the office will know that you solve my problem, and you will feel important again. -- that is solved my problem. >> what is wrong with you? >> that is disgusting. >> i already handled it. it would have been out of my hair. you want to be a big shot. well, no matter how powerful we get around here, all you have done is prove that you are another humorless bitch.

have a nice weekend. tavis: "have a nice weekend." that was funny. it is good to see you. i really mean that. i felt i would not be seeing you for a while a few months ago. >> i am glad it is over. i can tell you that everything worked out, and i am hoping people will see it and be happy, and none of this book ever be discussed again. tavis: we have to discuss it at least one more time. i have not seen you in awhile. i want to play a clip from david e. kelley. a lot of good work.

i asked him about what it is in the industry that annoy is -- anoint -- annoys yous, and you just cannot stand it -- >> too many. when i started on "l.a. law," we had 48 minutes with four acts, and we are now down to six acts in a one-hour presentation. tavis: you are not the only one in town dealing with this issue. what is your specific take? not on amc, per se, but this notion that the networks want to put more and more commercials in the show? >> i liken it to -- we are in

the midst of a dwindling oil supply. if you were to create a car right now that use more gas than any other in the history of time, the audience has so many choices, and they are completely entitled to pay their bills. network television has a different model. on cable television, the bargain that he make that i will watch the commercials in exchange for getting the programming for free, that is how it was justified, that it was coming for free into your house, but it is not. you are paying for it, and you are having to watch the commercials. doing all of these other things. i love the idea of having this exclusive, old-fashioned sunday night at 10:00, but at a certain point, they just started adding more and more commercials, and when you look at when it

started, it was six minutes per hour that was commercials. right now, on network television, 42 minutes for every hour of programming. that means you are literally dropping something out of asia, and for me, having this a very unique product -- you are literally dropping something out of the show. slightly hypnotic or whenever. you are getting a product. in pure business terms. that you cannot get anywhere else. when i was asked to shorten it to allow for two more minutes of commercials, after i had already shortened it -- i used to have more leeway when i first got to the network. we had two breaks. they were in chunks. we had these reminders in the middle of ads. they would stop the tivo.

i am all in favor of advertising and know that it pays the bills, but the idea that you would change the product was something that i was, like, i am not doing it. i just figured out how to do the show. i am not going to make a cruddier show the more popular it gets. i can tell a half-hour show in 42 minutes. it will be really, really boring. tavis: does two minutes really make a difference? >> yes, it does. 54 pages. i am cutting five minutes out of the show by the time you see it, and i cut out everything that does not work. for me, i can barely get to 47:30. this is five pages of the script. i know this sounds totally

technical. the scene that we just watched, that is gone. that was not even two minutes, by the way. i do a very dense and concentrated show, and i do it on a budget, quite honestly, compared to network television, and i was, like, it does not matter. it is what the form of the show is. the two minutes, the other effect that it has, they have this thing they have been doing forever, and we all know this from the late show. here is a big chunk of the movie, and then here is a smaller chunk, and as they get towards the end, it gets smaller and smaller. with my sure, it is basically -- with my show, it is basically a clip. that is not what people are therefore. to me, you are driving them to use the tivo.

you are driving them to it. people will watch the shows it they are entertaining and within reason. at some point, it is like somebody hitting you on the head when you are trying to enjoy something. tavis: the networks to watch. i'd just like being able to talk to you on interrupted. -- uninterrupted. >> i understand. you have got this dvr machine, so you are always fighting for attention, and why would you add more commercials? there was a little while last year when they started to make the shows a little longer again. to charge more per commercial. if it is scarce, you can raise the price on it, and they never had the confidence to do that. they had one piece of new programming on the air per quarter, and i am not an expert

on how it works. all i know is that in the end, leaving the show the way it was, different from what is on network television, closer to what was on hbo, that is how we got our foot in the door, and that is how it stayed. in the end, there is only one version of the show for the life of the show. however long it will run, it will be 47:30. tavis: if i am to believe what i read, you are going to stay at least three seasons 7, and it will be it at the end of season 7. >> we will see what it is like when we are one shot away from it. -- one show away. tavis: we have got at least three more seasons, 5, 6, and seven. you are not going to tell us nothing about the season. i know. >> i am glad that people want to

know. it used to be that nobody cared. tavis: ruling out a new season and will not tell us -- rolling out a new season and will not tell us jack. >> it is almost like going to a horror movie. your pulse will be racing a little bit. you will be nervous. as an entertainer, i get to sort of, you name your favorite singer. sinatra did not come out and put a song list out and say, "i am going to do this and then this and then this." there is always a certain amount of tension. there is some theory that telling people exactly what they are going to get is going to make them enjoy it more, and i am the demo of my show, and i am in the demo of the show, and i know what i like, and i do not

want to know. that is what i like. you sit down. you watch the show. you have this knot in your show and go through this rollercoaster, and then you watch it again -- you have this knot in your stomach and go through this rollercoaster. that was a special plan. tavis: why this year? >> we were off of the air force so long, i wanted people to know that i am still fighting for their attention -- we were off the air for so long. to give a special event. tavis: just between the two of us, how much trepidation do you have? >> just the two of us. [laughter] tavis: how much trepidation do you have?

are these guys still interested? >> you know me a little bit. i have that anxiety all of the time. i wonder when i walk in my house if my kids are going to want to state -- say hello to me. that is part of why i am in show business. i am never going to feel secure. i do not know what to say. i did the show, and i try not to worry about that. i think by doing the two-hour premiere, i am aware of that we have been away and that i will give you something extra. i think that for whatever reason that the timing went around, and hopefully the most negative feelings about the show and towards me have dissipated at some point. you know what i mean?

but i am as nervous as every single season. this will be the season where we get bad reviews. is this the season where people will be, like, "i will catch it later"? tavis: with the past, everybody is back? >> yes. tavis: you were not far from a banana in the tailpipe. >> i will make the promise that i think people will feel like they got a lot. it is a totally new story. which is always the juice of the show. it is the same people, and it has moved on, obviously. i will not say how much, but you will get into this story immediately. tavis: draper walking past the mannequins.

>> what did you get for that? tavis: i do not want to misread it. >> i feel that part of it is like a rorschach test. tavis: this ad here. >> yes. it is striking, right? absolutely, absolutely. i think it also says something about don and the show. it has certain qualities of the show, which it is kind of luscious. it is kind of dirty but not dirty. i am on basic cable. i cannot swear or show nakedness or even show violence, so i am working in an old fashion arena and it went -- an old-fashioned

arena anyway. the scene that is in there is a man and a woman in a situation. and you are getting a look at his base -- face in there. tavis: what do you make of this show being so successful? and i do not want to name others, but people have tried to copy this stylistically. >> that was fascinating to me. i did find it flattering. i did find it interesting. i was curious what it would be. i did not know that going through the network machine rick, they would be able to tell -- going through the network machinery, they would be able to tell the story. they can do the makeup and the hair, but the stories -- a lot

of the people that worked on the show were involved in the shows, but for me, i looked at it. i saw it as flattering. it is so hard to get a show on the air. i was like, good luck. good luck. the only thing that is part of negative, and that is the most interesting part, right, is that this show was rejected by every single person. tavis: "mad men"? >> "mad men." it was written as a spec. "what else do you want to do?" "good luck with your show." nobody else is going to watch it. and then they are out there

doing that. tavis: so what happens in this town when you run into these people who told you, "good luck. it will never work. it will never fly." >> i thrive on it in some way. i would not say that i do not have an ego, but the funniest thing is that sometimes you run into people -- all i can tell you is that people treat me well. as i always say, be nice to your waiter. i try not to hold a grudge. there are some people who were particularly obnoxious about it, and i see them, and i kind of smile or whatever, but that is a really tough job. even when i was selling my show.

am i particularly vindictive or anything like that? you cannot be. there is literally no one in television that did not see this script and rejected -- reject it. i am very aware -- very forgiving. if it failed, i would still be going back. tavis: "mad men" wildly successful. "bill cosby show," turned down by everybody. figuring out if it could work, and then it works wildly. >> here is an idea. that guy took the risk. "it happens. let's do that."

especially when these things are not cheap, these television shows. when people have to make these decisions, they have to. tavis: for all of the crap that we get, how much good stuff is out there because someone does not think it will work? a black doctor. "this will never work." >> by the way, when i saw "the cosby show," it was amazing. the structure. it did not even look like a sitcom. we will be trying this amazing stuff now. look at this chance they took. you would think that would limit your chance, but it was not a chance. so what happened? in one year, there were 20 shows just like it. they do not know how to take

that first step out there. if you step out there, and you fail, you have got to hedge your bet. you have to hedge your bet. that is really the risk part of it. it takes a certain kind of person to take the risk. brandon tartikoff. there is not a billionaire who has not been broke. the rest of the people are really trying. this is a lot about what "mad men" is about. you are trying to keep your head above water and have a nice house. knowing what would hit creatively. why would you not just use yourself? anyone who is trying to guess what the public wants or says

they know, others do not know. that is what i say. when i was trying to sell it, i was, "do you like it?" also, when you ask them if they like it, they are not telling you the truth. "do you like this poster with a sexy image on it?" focus groups are touchy. people not being able to stand by their own opinions are touchy. and it requires a certain amount of bravery to take some cash and go and do it. what do you do? i have no stars. there was no one on that show that was really known to the public. that spirit at amc, that is why no matter what happens, i feel

this deep loyalty to them. we had a meeting when we talked about the show, and we would look at each other and say, "do you like it?" that is the way we made the decision. tavis: coming full circle, and we have two minutes. i am thinking to myself that the show is over. you write all of this stuff. if you ever get like ammonia, what happens do -- if you get pneumonia, what happens to "mad men"? >> a lot of shows are like that, and that is just the risk you take. what happens if somebody is on the bench? tavis: that is another conversation. >> you are really important. tavis: what happens if the ideas

stopped coming to you. >> well, i do not do this by myself, and that is the best thing about working with talented people. the person who does "weeds," she is from a show business family and is a deep the creative person and is like a sister to me. i always talk to her. there is always more. that is the way life is. there is always more story. the panic is when you are doing it, and it does not feel good. i have to take a break. thanks for making me worry about that, too. tavis: because there is more story, and, thankfully, there is, there are more episodes of "mad men." season 5. as i said, the first four

seasons, they won everything. >> i hope you enjoy it. tavis: i am looking forward to seeing it. that is our show for tonight. until next time, keep the faith. >> i did what was best for the company. you can either back me or not. >> you did what you did because you are childish. >> so no one is happy about this? >> it is good not to be the reason this place went down anymore. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with an astrophysicist, neil degrasse tyson. that is next time. we will see you then. >> every community has a martin luther king boulevard. it's the cornerstone we all know. it's not just a street or

boulevard, but a place where walmart stands together with your community to make every day better. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pbs. >> be more. pbs.