graffiti, for some, it's an eyesore, but for others, it's an eye-fetching suppression of art. >> you can see it as a positive thing. >> should street art be allowed to exist? that issue coming up on "equal time. " >> you're watching equal time, exploring new issues each week giving equal time to competing points of view. >> hello, from the campus of san jose state university. and welcome to this edition of equal time. i'm your host, graffiti's impact on a surface can be fleeting, but at a modern movement that can be traced back to the 1960s and '70s, or later. as we report, graffiti has widespread appeal in today's

culture. >> adrian first considered himself an artist when he was 7. at the age of 9, he got involved with graffiti. >> i'm working 12 hour days, being the only child, no one at home, summers were a great freedom for me, and you know, walls under bridges, creeks, limited canvass that i didn't have to pay for, you know, nobody would bother me. i started off with letters, and experimenting with color, things like that, but you know, i wasn't really pushing it. it was kind of more just trying to get out there and trying to get my name out. >> today, he gets his name out. not with. feet tags, but designed -- not with graffiti tags, but designs. the business is housed in

silicon, a media and community group. >> he uses this as his canvas. the gardner neighborhood. he says he was inspired to create the mural. >> complaint usually comes towards youth, it's, you know, you guys are stealing, drinking, you mean, it's like well, they're kind of set up for that. there's no real place to hang out after 7, 8, 9:00, which is crucial for a young person to have that cultural social life, and then, you know, artists, they like to color and paint on everything. >> even a message towards children. he used big. feet style lettering to

spell the words inspire. >> big burner letters, big enough to where you can see them from 200 feet away. >> rodriguez partnered with him to make the mural. rodriguez, who also used to do graffiti illegally, serveed as his mentor. rodriguez is a designer for his business in the san jose shop. it has clothing and art, including graffiti inspired designs. >> for the most part, graffiti is abstract, it's a butch of geometric shapes, you're giving topography i, taking each letter, stretching it out. if the letter was dough, you're stretching out the end. >> theythe graffiti movement has been around since the

1960s, '70s and '80s. it is defined at unauthorized writing or drawing on a surface, but it can describe an artistic style used in legal artwork. >> he won grant money to work with community members on this mural. >> it really opened my eyes to how people see public art, and how you can see it as a positive thing, and you can say hey, let's beautify the neighborhood, and you can take away hostility, and you know, questioning, like who are you to come into my neighborhood? and tell me what art is and put it up on my walls? >> while both say the mural received mostly positive feedback, it also received a few negative reviews for its graffiti style. >> like all it is when you look at graffiti, it's just shapes, colors, and lines. you know? and that's it. so i just don't, i don't, to me,

i think that there's always going to be people out there that have their prejudice. >> the graffiti style is sometimes employed in public art projects. such as these murals in san francisco's mission district. they were commissioned by a nonprofit. this genre caught the eye of this san francisco risk dent, steve -- residents, steve rotman who started to take photographs in the graffiti. and it turned into a passion. he has taken hundreds of graffiti photos, many displayed on his flikr account. >> if you're allowing them to do the work legally and getting paid, that's not the kind of graffiti that originally attracted my to the art form. what makes it interesting to me is the fact it is illegal, and

so there's a kind of tension between those two things that you've got people creating some really fabulous art, but doing it at risk, and doing it illegally that makes graffiti a very interesting and often exciting medium. >> he says he sees art in all types of graffiti, including tags, the signatures of graffiti writers. >> that's usually the mostville fewed kind of graffiti and the kind that most people hate. what i learned in my many years of photographing graffiti is tags are also very artistic, and a very interesting form of kind of urban writing. >> he is the author of two books. defends the reputation of the artists. >> none of them, as far as i could tell, had no relations to gapings, -- gangs, most i interviewed loved doing graffiti or art. and when i say they loved doing it, i mean they loved the act of

going out and taking a spray can and doing a tag or doing a piece or a throw-up. they like the thrill, they also like the expression element of it. >> not everyone approves of this art form. some people even combat graffiti by doing graffiti themselves. that's the premise of a recent documentary, vigilante, vigilante, which follows individuals that paints -- that paint over the graffiti. >> you can see graffiti as a decay or attack on society, but you can see it as a contribution, you can even see it as sort of, like a regeneration in the neighborhood. people are caring enough to

express themselves. so it really depends on your outlook. i think in some cities, where there's a lot of graffiti, it means it's a cool place to live, there's good culture, and young people are moving there, and there's a vibrant community. it doesn't mean it's dangerous or people don't care about their community. >> good, who is an oakland rest department, began doing graffiti when he was 15. and continued to do it to communicate political messages. he used graffiti as a form of self expression. >> i'd rather see the person expression of individuals than just blank walls and corporate advertising and really, usually quite boring architecture, so i think graffiti is sort of a democratic art form where it

lets everybody participate and have a voice. >> when we come back, we'll give you the other side. >> you can't go to other people's property, and decide, you know, what it should look like. >> we'll look at the government's look and others when we return.

>> we've seen how graffiti is considered art in some sectors of society. but painting without permission, that can be costly and there are consequences. both for the tagger, and for those left with the tags. equal time shows you the economics and social reasons for graffiti abatement effort. >> they make their home in downtown san jose's nationo park. other houses make up the area east of san jose state university. for this resident, there are blemishes on this beautiful day in her neighborhood. she is taking matters into her own hands. >> lockhart organized 25 volunteers to clean up graffiti

in september, 2011. she lived here 7 years and seen an increase. >> it was about two years ago that i woke up one morning and there was a tag in front of my house, and that led me to suddenly look around the neighborhood, and notice that there were tags all over the walks, all over the signs, the streets. >> lockhart talked to the san jose anti graffiti program. she wants to removed immediately. in addition to reporting graffiti. people can visit the program to pick up free kits for eradicating it themselves. this is where marianne picks up free cleaning solvent to add to her graffiti removing arsenal. >> you have your various things. >> there is solvent, rags, and different shades of spray paint.

>> graffiti is in my life every day. i don't paint every day, but, you know, i -- >> israeli find graffiti on traffic signals, signs, electrical boxes, newspaper stands, and garbage cans. >> you see it on the cement, and streets. actually, that's more tiff to remove did she says -- >> she says her workplace is a popular target. she removed the tag from the fence. you can still see some specs of paint against the blue fence. she has lives here for almost 30 years, she's the part owner of nearby properties. she has a connection between.

feet and the -- she says there's a connection between graffiti and the economy. >> all the crime goes up, you know, cars being vandalized, and apartments sometimes get broken into. and graffiti, all those things, when the economy is better, i see those things abate. >> she abaits graffiti because she believes a clean neighborhood lessens the likelihood of crime. she has people that say it's a positive contribution. >> you know, i could use that argument and say, well, okay, here's your bike, so i think i'll -- i think it looks cooler if it has been, the paint has been scraped off of it. it's just, you don't go to other people's property and decide,

you know, what fashion you think it should be in. >> they say most of the tags are ugly and offensive. >> of course, i've seen in person, you know, beautiful murals that are graffiti style, but that's not what we're seeing around the neighborhood, and quite frankly, i don't want to be forced to see any of it anywhere. >> they voluntarily clean up graffiti. meanwhile, the city is changing how to handle the complaints. the city outsources graffiti abatement efforts to a private contractor. this year's save the city -- it cost 15 city employees their jobs. even city hall is vulnerable to graffiti. the city employees don't wanton interviewed on camera, but one says they power wash regularly.

according to a survey, san jose saw a 38% increase in last year's documented tags. one of the areas that saw the increase is district 5, east san jose. this council member is concerned with how fast it is being removed. >> we will be having a report on six month report on how effective or how well this new contractor is doing. and you know, then the council will be able to weigh in on, you know, on the results of the report. >> council member ash who represents district 2 as far south as coyote valley, says while some of san jose's tags are related to gang activity, the increase in graffiti can be attributed to the bad economy, and the need for youth programs.

>> when they do something that's wrong, they make sure they're punished for it. but you have to make sure we help them grow through that experience. >> the punishment for graffiti can include fines, community service, and jail time. in 2009, the police arrested steven free. over the years, he left his mark throughout the bay area. the judge ordered three years probation and a $48,000 fine. and, when his graffiti got him in trouble with the law, adrian said it was a major turning point in his live. >> i wasn't actually arrested, i was given a citation, and i had to pay a couple things, do community service hours, but ever since that day, i said you know what? this is not worth it. >> but he says the more

punishment will not deter people from illegal activity. he says there's more than san jose can do to reach its youth. >> you don't have an out for that. you're going to go to the next best thing, and say if i can write my name on this wall, nobody will do anything about it, beside give me hours or take my money, i'm going to do this. there's no outlet. >> the council member says everybody should be concerned with the graffiti and concerns behind it. >> you know what? graffiti goes up on our wall -- you can stop that child from, whatever the consequence, but. [ inaudible ] you don't really see it. >> we'll sit down with a panel

of experts and our student reporter when "equal time" returns. >> welcome back. our focus is graffiti. let's meet our guests. >> dave martinez, artist,

writer, educator. >> joey reyes, program assistant, latino center for the arts. >> city council member, representing district 2. >> carol land lockhart, professional musician in san jose. >> late get to it. -- let's get to it. i grew up in an urban area where it was an expression to use graffiti to get out a message, to stir people up. people thought it caused problems for society. this is your area. how would you respond to that? >> i think those elements still hold true, but graffiti in 2011 is just such a large movement with some different practitioners who have been doing it for upwards to 30, 40 years now, and it covers so many different social areas, you can't use one idea to talk about the whole segment. you have people like myself who have been doing it well over 20 years, that go into the class

and lecture, and other people on the opposite side. you have a lot of different entities, and different movements within this movement. so some of that holds true. >> carolyn, how do you react? >> the only issue i have about graffiti is where you do it. where do you do your graffiti? >> i do my graffiti primarily in my studio, but in the past, i mean, you know, i did like everyone else. it was my form of getting my message out, it was my way to let the world know i was alive, so i did my unsolicited public artwork as well. so i do it primarily in my studio know. >> as a councilman here in san jose, you look at it from a different perspective. it's a cost factor to deal with this issue. >> there's definitely a cost, and the residents ask us as representatives to get rid of the graffiti. they don't like it, and i think

that in the mike rowe view of it, we have to do what we can to eliminate graffiti, eliminate the blight, and i think there is a distinction between the tagging and the graffiti art that happens, and so much which is gang related, but not all of it. there are tagging crews and such. i think the flip side is a broader, more long-term view is we have to find ways of reaching out to the people doing the graffiti so we can find opportunities for them, because i don't believe the answer is simply locking people up, or having them convicted of misdemeanors or felonies now, it's just $400 now, that's not the answer either. i think if you want to deal with this issue, both from the residents' perspective and artists we have to channel what's happening in the street in a positive way.

>> joy, there's an education element we're missing. what is it? >> i think, yes, speaking from my experience, coming off from my background, you know, i am also a professional artist, so i understand the, you know, value in that language itself. i think what we are doing is trying to get the youth when they're younger, trying to offer them alternatives. if you have the place to actually realize your voice, i think it's really the youth trying to find their voice, and sometimes it may be done in a manner that is illegal. and i think if we offer the options, because we all know here that, you know, once the economy is bad, the first thing to go are programs for youth, and so if we as an arts organization, as an arts center can offer those alternatives, like we have a program called

pee pod, that we just opened, in collaboration with adobe and black eyed peas, so what we're doing is a four scale media facility. it's for local youth to come in and build their voice. they are not only learning the technical aspects, of video production, music production, but learning, you know, to kind of, i guess build a language themselves to understand there's issues here that they can explore to the media. >> when you were doing this report, what did you experience when you were out there talking to people about that? >> i experienced there's lots of different points of views, and opinions on this issue, and not just there's a pro side on con side, but even on the same so-called side, there's different opinions, whether it's people who have done it before, graffiti, i mean, in the past, and they don't do it anymore, and they don't approve of it.

but they still use that as their artistic style and there's other people that appreciate the more legal aspects of it. >> the public looks and says why are they glorifying graffiti? it's a problem, we need to get rid of it. it belongs in the classroom. help me with this, carolyn. you help organize people to do something about it. >> i do. actually, i'm wondering if it would make a difference, i know some cities, there are places where it's legal to tag, or draw or whatever you want to call it. i don't know if that would -- in your opinion, from what you see, would that make any difference if there's a legal place? >> ultimately, i think graffiti artists should get paid for what they do. that's the side i'm on. i think that there should be space, you know, that could be like free wall space, let's say, for people to create their artwork. and that can be done in all

manners, but i think that one of the things about graffiti art, it's have i primal to all of us, like, i always tell folks that like picasso has the saying we're all borne artists, it's the trick to stay that way. i believe we are all born graffiti artists. the issue is trying to maintain that as we grow up. it's parts of our nature to mark our territory, when we're little to get your mom's lipstick and mark on the wall to create something to say that i am here, and all that we're doing is taking that energy and we're using different mediums, extrapolating on it, growing it, communicating on a grander level. the issue always comes down as to where does it end up going? >> mom and dad used to complain about that. we had to walsh that done -- wash that down. >> that's what you said, when you're little. at some point we have to grow up. >> how do you define growing up?

does that mean i give up my creativity? my voice, or i'm going to latch on and ride it like lightning? i think that's how a lot of us that have been doing it for a long time, we've done that. we've transformed, changed with the times, but keeping our message true. rhyme not an after the -- i'm not an advocate, when i to a school, i talk about the creative points and the style aspects, i'm not telling johnny to tag a bathroom. when i was active in the street, tacking wasn't something that i was a big fan of. our running joke was with the tagging construction and no disrespect to a tagging crew, we can do that, but can they do this? and we pushed the art aspect and when you look at practitioners who have been doing it a long time, that's where they're headed out. and there's been a conflict between people who are bus hopping or people who are just tagging, and you do have the

gang element, and i don't think, and i think we can have that common consensus that the gang element, you know, the flea on the graffiti dog. >> i think that's what lawmakers are concerned about. how do you deal with that? and your colleagues, when they hear about this, do they -- >> we have to understand that even though part of the graffiti is part of our community, it's not one or the other, but the reality is there is a cost. to be in the community cleaning it up, and franly, thanks to carolyn and my district, there are hundreds of volunteers that come out throughout the city, taking their own time using city resources like materials and paint to cover up graffiti. >> we have to be aware of that. there is more than one side to this issue. i thank you for your points of view. we hope you'll stay in touch with equal time, and come back for another edition of "equal

time. "