from washington, "the mclaughlin group," the erican original, for over three decades the urces, hardest talk the second debate between president obama and governor mitt romney this past tuesday ur drew a tv audience of 65.6 million viewers. the debate was at hofstra university on long island in new york, town hall style. testy, tense and quite rivetting throughout. here's the president, pressing governor romney on romney's tax

plan and d how he'll do what he claims he will do. >> if somebody came to you, governor, with a plan that said, here, i want to spend $7 or $8 trillion and we're going to pay for it, but we can't tell you until maybe after the election how we're going to do it, you wouldn't have taken such a sketchy deal. and neither should you, the american people, because the math doesn't add up. sh >> we're talking . about math - when we're talking about math that doesn't add up, how about $4 trillion of deficits over the last five years, or $5 trillion, that's math that doesn't add up. ma we have a president talking about someone's plan in a way that's completely foreign to what my real plan is. and then we have his own record which is we have four consecutive years where he said when he was running for offi he would cut the deficit in half. instead he's doubled it. >>reporter: mr. romney also noted that under president

obama the national debt has gone from $10 trillion to $16 trillion, as shown here by continuously accruing national debt clock. >> question, are president obama's debate performances damaging his brand. pat buchanan? >> john, if mitt romney wins this election, the debate performances of barack obama will be responsible for his victory. in the first debate barack obama was listless, he looked like he didn't even want to be president again. in the second debate, he deappreciatated his two most priceless assets, one is the dignity of the oval office, and the seco is his likability. he came down out of that pulpit, that bully pulpit t.r. called it, and got into a big brawl with mitt romney. and i think he sedeappreciatate those assets. on roey's part, john, the debates have served one ey critical function. the couny has seen him, and it has come to believe that the

caricture of him created by the effective ads by the obama campaign all during the summer that he was a super rich guy, on aring, you know, cheating his taxes is false. and so i'll tell ya, history will say if mitt romney wins this eltion that he won it in the debates. >> eleanor. >> well, pat is right to the extent that the obama campaign, they are victims of tieir own success because they did caricture romney over the summer and all he had to do was show up and seem sort of reasable and a lot of that an caricture was wiped away. but to say that the president amaged his bran who started the brawl the other night? the pr ident was suidosed to not fight back? i thought the president acquitted himself very well in the second debate i think he stopped the bleeding that occurred after the first debate, and i certainly would agree that the first debate was a disaster for the president and he has acknowledged that

and said that he was rested and ready for the second debate because of that nice long nap he had in the first debate, in the jokes at the al smith dinner. so i think we've got a very close race here. i think the president still maintains a small but apparently durable lead in the three states that will get him to 271, ohio, wisconsin and iowa. >> michelle, let me giving this tracking poll by gallup. in the two days following the debate, gallup's daily tracking poll of likely voters show shromney rising from 50% to 52 and obama falling from 46% to 45%. what's significant 45out that poll? >> well, i mean, the fact that the polls are changing to governor romney's favor, even ou after that debate performance on monday, it was interesting to listen to pat and eleanor speak because i think wh you talk about how people actually viewed the candidates, this is exactly the problem that both candidates have. i think white males looked at mitt romney's performance in the last two debates an saw

something completely different than most people than african- americans, latinos and women saw it. so i don't think you see a lot of people thinking, for example, that barack obama deappreciatated the presidency, they were happy, they saw him as a leader, and they felt that he was finally showing leadership skills during that last debate performance. so it is interesting to see that mitt romney's numbers are ticking up. but if you look at favorability ratings, his numbers are still not good. >> mort. >> i thlok the debates e have been the passaic river ole moments in this -- the pivot ol issues in this campaign. more importantly from mitt romney's point of view, he came across as being presidential. he came across as being knowledgeable, he came across as being articulate, logical, so i think he transformed his image to a lot of people. >> mitt romney? >> yeah, mitt romn. >> i thought he came . across a being incredibly rude and disrespectful of the presidency. debate. first >> yeah, that's just the first debate. in the second debate, if i may say, so t if ere's one person who really in a sense

unbalanced the way the two of them were speaking was candy crowley. >> please. she was doing her job. >> i'm sorry, you have a version of her job, i have a different version of her job. she was a moderator of the panel. she wasn't to be a journalist in the sense of taking sides in a debate which is what i felt. but having said that, okay, i think in a sense obama clearly the -- the president clearly did better. he was a lot more forceful, but he may have been too forceful. i felt that the sue of likability was really important. i thought that's what joe biden lost in his debate because of dee way he handled it, where he was, you know -- everything was a laugh for him. >> every focus group shows that the voters are concerned that president obama isn't tough enough. >> exactly. >> he needed to show backbo, he needck to rally his base an he certainly did that. >> he did that. he did that. >> and joe biden did that as well. excuse me. i want to finish here. and the debates i agree with mort, you don't -- you don't need to smirk at me, mort. [ laughter ] >> i was smirking at buchanan.

>> the debates are very critical in this internet age, the face-to-face captors are re really important, otherwise we might have had governor rick perry as the republican nominee. >> hold on, pat. >> let me make a point. >> go ahead. >> biden and obama both did , biden in , the second -- the president in the second debate, biden. but by rallying their base, just like republicans in their primaries rally their base, they damage themselves in the center and among women. look at homitt t romney ha moved among women in these two debates and how the biden have >> we're going to get that now. another teceer trap, equality for women. >> i mentioned 3 1/2 million er women more now in povey than four years ago. what we can do to help young women and women of all ages is to have a strong economy, they y ught us whole binders full of women. i was prouwoof the fact that after i prstaffed my cabinet an my senior staff that the university ofnew ofyork in albany did a survey of all 50

states and concluded that mine t had more women and senior -- in senior leadership positions than any other state in the anerica. >> the first bill i signed was something called the lilly ledbetter bill, and it wa named after this amazing woman who had been doing the same job as a man for years, found out that she was getting paid less and the supreme court said that she codn't bring suit becaus fo it earlier. but she had no way of finding out about dnit. so we fixed that. >> question, are mitt romney's binders full of women, the equivalent in this debate as the big bird in the first debate? a lot of obama supporters will leap to lanpoon but a really trivia pursuit. >> i don't think it's trivial it at all. that statement was incredibly clumsy and stupid. republican brand and the damage that has been done to the republican brand, the republican party's brand over the last year in terms of

people talking about women putting between their legs for contraception, a state tegislator in wisconsin saying one could argue that money is more important to men. all of you are laughing, it's not funny. that money is more important to men than it is to women. it is a very serious problem. but why i believe mmitt romney numbers have climbed since the debate because of -- not because of his statement, but because people on the left have made the mistake of saying that any conservative woman who votes for mitt evromney is stup and your thing, red state feminists who are rising up and saying i'm not stupid because i'm a republican -- >> michelle, pat was laughing at yo i wasn't laughing. >> i know you were not laughing. >> can we get a maleview in here? >> pat was laughing. you were mildly laughing. >> let's go. >> the romney campaign has an ad up which is actual a good

ad of a former obama votewho says she looked into these charges that romney is extreme on abortion and she discovered that, oh, he accepts exceptions r rape, incest and life , of the mother. and mitt romney is trying to have it both ways on the abortion issue. he wants women and moderates to think he's the massachusetts moderate, massachusetts governor. he wants everybody to forget what he said duringthe primary -- >> john? jo can i get in? >> when he said he would sign a personhood amendment and when he supported the blunt amendment on capitol hill. >> let's get back to lilly ledbetter. >> yes, let's get back to lilly ledbetter. >> what are you doing, in? rrupting the which will on g this panel? >> -- interrupting the women on this panel? >> i know you're giggling about lilly ledbetter as well, but a lot of women no who she is and what it stands for and equal pay is a huge issue. >> we have seen on this panel -- i mean, excuse me, semi

hysteria over this issue. the feminists are running after this. mitt intended nothing wrong. he has a terrific recordup there, he was given a binder. they said, well, they gave him the binder the feminists are chasing this thing like some rabbit and you're losing losing -- >> no. retro, pat. >> he did populate husetts governor with women. okay. getting personal. >> any investments i have over the last eight years have been managed by a blind trust, and i understand they do include ide of the idu united ates, including in chinese companies. mr. president, have you looked at your pension? have you looked at your pension? >> you know, i don't look at in pension. it's not as big as yours, so it doesn't take as long. >> let me give you some advice. look at your pensiohave investm chinese coanies, you also have investments outside of then united states. >> question. why can president obama affordfo to be blassee about his pension, michelle? >> i actually though it was funny and he can be blase about it because his pension not

sneerly as large as mitt romney's. i think that was the point he was trying to make and it probably did very well with his base. >> well, at 51 he thinks it's a long way in the future as well. but i thought the exchange was a funny exchangeit >> it was funny, yeah. >> but it does point out the hypocrisy on mney's part about china. he's this big tough guy on the campaign trail about china, but he's investing in china at bain and company, he did a lot of work with china, so -- >> well, wait a minute. mort, you have investments in china? >> absolutely. ch you do? >> yeah. i sell magazines in china. least eight people who subscribe to the magazine. >> how come they didn't bail out your magazine? you're only known on the t net. like you, news ek, can you imagine that? newsweek is going to be on neth net. no printed edition. >>it'll reach millions on the net. >> the chinese do not bail out magazines or newspapers. the only thing that bails out magazines and newspapers are advertising and advertising has basically drifted away from

print products and rethat's why they have to go on the web. >> you want romney to do anything about that? >> no, i do not. he's got a lot of other issues that are more important and i hope he follows one, and the most important is the economy. >> the newspaper and the at printed magazines. >> but there is a serious issue here, both these candidates are ing very tough on the chinese, on their exports and stuff. >> that's right. >> and they're roughing up relations with the chinese. this is a consequence of the whole globalization. that's why you've lost all those factories in ohio. >> do you think time magazine will be issue two, benghazi bruceer. >> the day following the assassination of the united states ambassador, the first time that's happened sie 1979, when we have four americans killed there, when apparently we didn't know what happened, that thpresident, the day after that happened, flies to las vegas for political fundraiser, then the next day to colorado for

another event, another political s ent. >> the day after the attack, governor, i stood in the rose garden and i told the enamerica people and the world that we were going to find out exactly what happened, that this was an act of terror and i also said that we're going to hunt down those who committed this crime. and then a few days later, i was there greeting the caskets coming into andrews air force base and grieving with the families. and the suggestion that anybody on my team, whether the secretary of state, our u.n. ambassador, anybody on team would play politics or mislead when we've lost four of our own, governor, is offensive. >> i think it's interesting the president just said something which is that on the day after the attack he went in the rose garden and said that this was an act of terror. you said in the rose garden the

day after the attack it was an act of terror. it was not a spontaneous demonstration, is that what you're saying? >> please oceed, governor. >> i want to make sure we get that or the record because ite took the president 14 days before he calledthe attack in ben gadzy an act of terror. >> get the transcript. >> i did, in fact, sir. so let me call it an act of terror. >> can you say that a little louder, candy? >> he did call it an act of terror [ applause ] >> it did as well take -- it did as well take two weeks or so for the whole idea of there being a riot out there about this tape to come out, you're correct about that. [ applause ] >>erthe administration indicate this was a reaction to a video and was a spontaneous reaction. >> they did. >> it took them a long time to say this was a terrorist act by a terrorist group, thand suggest -- am i incorrect i in that regard? on sunday your secretary -- >> candy. >> excuse me. the ambassador of the united

nations, on one of -- went on the sunday television shows and spoke about was spontaneous. >> candy, i'm hainy to have a longer conversation about this policy. >> i hope this doesn't muddy up the waters, but the cia station chief y libya reported to washington thin 24 hours of last month's deadly attack thon the u.s. consulate, that there was evidence that it was carried out by militants, not a spontaneous mob, upset about an american-made video ridiculing islam's prophet o mohammed. u.s. officials polls out to the associated press that came out fray noon by the aya.p. now, where is this settling down? >> romney messed it up terribly. the day after the attack in a generic statement the president talked about acts of terror. he didn't say benghazi was an act of thterror. not only the cia reported that, fox news, the day after, said intelligence guys say it's an act of trifl, yet two days later carney goes out and tellse

the press spontaneous -- >> in the airplane. >> carney went out and told the press, whatever it was, and five days later susan rice goes out on five television shows. >> right. >> with a script saying this is as a result goof a spontaneous protest, it was not preplanned and not premeditated. the president said they did no mislead anybody. they did misld a country. the question is did they d ceive the country or was the intelligence so bad that it did not get to the top guys, but it did not get out to the country? so it wautter incompetence or deceit and deception. >> or was it criminal? >> no. >> it is not criminal? >> no. they lied. they may have lied, we don't know. i don't think susan rice did. i think she was sent out. i think carney was sent out. >> no legal rap here? >> no. >> there will be an opportunityr for a longer discussion about this in the foreign policy debate deon monday. the president said t's have a longer conversation. secondly, romney did blow it in

the debate. there was an opportunity there maybe he could have made the t' case, as egregious as it is, that you made in a short amount of time. but what are you trying to claim here? that there's some desort of a coverup, that's -- coverup of what? susan rice can point to the intelligence thing. >> it's a coverup to keep hi reputation as the great terrorist killer, no acts of trich on my watch, -- terrorism on my watch, al-qaida is on the run. >> the enig ma is susan susan rice not knowing anything about it and in fact testifying to the contrary. >> if you would have the grace to play what she said, she conditioned her remarks. she said this is what we know at this time. >> yeah. which was itcertainly eroaneiou >> no. she was not totally erroneous. >> what did susan rice know and when did she know it? >> talk to hillary clinton. she talks about the fog of war and as things unfold on the ground and as events became

clearer, the administration developed a fuller story. maybe they should have said right off the bat we don't think it related to k the film, but, you know, embassies are in flames in many places because i think there was natural tendency to link it. but in the end what have you got here? >> you've got deception, that's what you have. >> for what reason? >> who knows. >> we don't know, but th bottom line is if you just look at the sequence that we just looked at during the debate, mitt romney made a colossal mistake and he is fighting tooth and nail for the presidency, and he gave the president the opportunity to demonstrate to the entire country that he is the commander in chief. when you talk about that image of him greeting the caskets and saying very strongly that the acts of terrorism are not goingu to happen on my watch -- >> why is the key point eleanor raises? look, al-qaida, the president said, is on the run, on the path to defeat. it is all over the middle east now. it is in bali, itfe is in libya

it is in syria, it is in iraq, it is in saudi arabia, it is in pakistanthe cancer has metasized. >> al-qaida inspired people, if you will nobody is claiming this president or any president can stamp out all of the rage that exists in the world. and the republicans are going to -- >> and osama bin laden is gone. all of a sudden neocons think that doesn't matter. >> that is not the case. >> that will be an overstatement of what they have accomplished in dealing with al- qaida, and we all know it. it's all over the place, as pat said. you follow any of the real intelligence reports now from many currents and they will tell styou that. so that's the only thing that's being said and what susan rice said, if i may say was misleading. maybe she didn't know it, maybe nobody knew it. >> how could she not know it? >> i'm not going to u answer th question because i don't have an answer to that question. >> why would she mislead? >> there's nothing to gain on it. >> it's in the direction of the white house. >> i don't think she lied,

john. >> they're not going to send her out there with a story that's false. >> it shows incompetence on the part of the intelligence community that they didn't know two lays later -- two days later? >> hillary's answers have been perfect. >> that's her ambassador and the president's ambassador, y did she not go out? >> the president's ambassador, she's as close an adviser and friend when it comes to foreign policy. she's beyond being a normal ambassador. >> why did she go on the live tv shows? >> i don't disagree because the answers of the administration do not fit. >> this is a hunch of conspiracies, though, when in fact people acting sort of with the knowledge they thought they had. >> look behind all this, eleanor. >> i look behind, but i don't look behind and invent corners and invent dots to be connected. >> on esday the espresident said that the situation is spiraling out of ntrol, and

yet in the light ntof that, she goes out there and says that -- she said what she said in front of the u.n. which obviously contradicts what he said. >> right. >> how could she go out and say that? >> i don't know what -- it doesn't make sense. i can't fit the pieces together. >> he didn't say benghazi was an act of terrorism. what she said was not inconsistent with what the president said. >> she said it was an act i of terror. >> somebody fed susan rice this line and i think they damaged her very badly and i'm not sure she's at fault. >> there was a mob and issue three, post-debate polling. >>reporter: a cnn poll taken after the debate questioned 457 adults, 33% self-identified republicans, 33% self- identified democrats and 33% self-identified independents. the poll was conducted ndon wou

handle the economy in would bet hageneral? governor romneyobama 43%. healthcare, who would better 43 healthcare, who would better handle it? romney mn46%. taxes, romney obama 44%. the federal budget 44%. the federal budget deficit, romney obampolicy, obama 49%, romney 47%. favoring governor romneyings on the broad question -- romney, on the broaeydebate question, governor romney was governor romney was winner, br 48%, compared to -- president obama 48% compared to governor romney 39%. what do you make of those numbers? >> i think the debate is very defining now, it's been definitive in terms of who's going to win the election.

romney did manage to resuscitate his campaign, particularly in the first debate. i agree, i thought the debate the bama was much better in second debate. we'll see what happens in the third debate, but it has certainly established romney as a credible president or a possible president. he was presidential in both of those debates, and without that he w done for as far as i'm concerned. >> i hope both of those categories romney clearly won. >> no. i have alwayshebelieved that th economy is very bad, the unemployment numbers are terrible and ultimatelyevi thin that will determine the outcome of the election and that's why i still think romney will lead. >> that shows the impact of the first debate because he was leading in all those categories on the economy and the healthcare before. i mean, that was his whole claim -- those are his credentials to be president and the fact y that the president - president obama closed that gap is what led to everybody writing off romney, and th

reason romney didn't win this debate, obama still comes out ahead has to do with likability and trust, and i think this is where romney pays the price for not having really formed any kind of bond with the american people, not having done the biographical stuff early on. i don't knowwhether there's time for him to do it in the last two weeks, but i think the american people still look at him as somewhat of a mystery. >> john, lookr ask yourself, ifo we were hiring a guy to be secretary of the treasury or head of the federal reserve or the economic policy council and you had the resume of mitt romney there, with his harvard business and barack obama, no doubt, we'd all re mitt romney. the question, though, is who do you want for president of the united states? mitt overwhelmingly is considered far more able in the area of the economy, as mort says, that may be crucial, but barack obama is still regarded as president of the united states. now, i think -- my friend over here, i think one itof his problems problems problems is president barack obama has not given us a vision of the

country, where he wants to take us that's going to be different from the last two years that has been a dismal deadlock. >> i dpree with pat's last statement in the sense that the president has to tell us what his vision for the ture of the country is and how he's going to get us tuthere. e. terms of the cnn s poll, the one thing that barack obama has for him is that even if people think that mitt romney might be better fothe economy, barack obama is so likeable, he will always do better than mitt romney on likability, and contrary to what mort says, i economy is in absolute shambles, but, again, the path to 270 electoral votes, it is much stronger on barack obama on demographics thec it is for mitt romney on the economy. >> what did you think of the electrifying performance in the first debate? >> i think he was absolutely abyss mal in the first debate a the pathto fast, two weeks from tuesday, who's going to win? >> who wins ohio wins. >> president obama.

>> obama. >> obama can't keep a job when so many people have lost paeirs. >> .