tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. conversation about the criminalization of america's kids and unintended consequences of a zero tolerance with the man in charge of the second-largest school district in the nation, dr. john deasy. we are glad you have joined us for a conversation on how to break the school-to-prison pipeline, coming up right now. >> there is a saying that dr. king had that said there is always the right time to do the right thing. i just try to live my life every day by doing the right thing. we know that we are only halfway to completely eliminate hunger, and we have a lot of work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out.

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: over the past few years on this program, i have been taking an in-depth look at some of the challenges facing america's education system. no issue has troubled me as much as the current rush to incarcerate kids, some as little as 11, for getting into trouble, mostly at school, to zero tolerance. it is creating a class of kids heading to jail cells rather than classrooms. tomorrow night, pbs is airing a report called "education under arrest."

it looks at the disturbing growth of the school-to-prison pipeline. we took our cameras to washington state, missouri, louisiana, and l.a., the second- largest school district in the nation that has a dropout rate that is having those in charge rethinking their zero tolerance policy. the man in charge of ending this downward spiral is dr. john deasy. let's take a look at a clip from tomorrow night's tbs special, called "education under arrest." >> until recently, los angeles cops wrote as many as 30,000 tickets against kids each years. -- each year. with many ending up in juvenile detention centers called camps. the process did not make schools safer. today, l.a. is rethinking this policy. >> we are not going to arrest

our way or to get our way out of the problem. the problem becomes, when we recognize a problem, identify somebody who is breaking the rules or committing a minor violation, how are we going to handle that? what is it we want to see? >> i have arrested a couple. i want to be able to give them a second chance. tavis: good to have you on this program and thank you for the time you spent with us for our special. i want to start with the clip we just saw and those 30,000 + citations that these school resource officers have been riding over the years. -- writing over the years. we will come to police officers in schools in a second. what is driving these citations, so many of them being written? >> it was -- it was an approach which we ended in my

administration, that everything is treated with zero tolerance. zero tolerance does not mean zero thought. it absolutely was a way to begin to criminalize youth. this is very much about young men of color inside of urban school systems. what we realized is that when you approach disciplined in a restorative way versus a criminalization way, there are many factors. being late to school is not because they do not care, it is because they are the dad or the mom being 13 years old in that family. what brings a student to tardiness, that does not necessarily need to result in a citation. bringing a weapon to school is a different issue. that was such a tiny fraction of the infractions. tavis: you said a lot in that one answer.

i want to start with school resource officers, a nice phrase for school police. these in-school police are increasing. i saw a study the other day that just over half of americans are in support of more police in schools as a report done in the aftermath of sandy hook. they think we ought to have more police in school. i am not of that mind-set. what is driving this notion of putting police in schools? >> i will share my mind set. i need police in schools when they are needed there for safety. they should not be doing administrative discipline. there is a big difference. you want police in school so that the school is safe, the students is self art -- the students themselves are safe, and the adults are safe. the unimaginable tragedy has increased parents' concerns. we do not want them to deal with

routine discipline, tardiness. that is what was happening. that is what we stopped. school resource officers, school police have a role. their role is to protect and make sure that they are there in the unlikely but very worrisome event that there should be a safety threat, a limited but necessary role. tavis: tomorrow night on the special, we get a chance to meet from the young woman you just saw in the clerk who works for the l.a. school police department. she is interesting because she .alks about her philosophy she finds them running around and being true and when they should be in school. we made this documentary in l.a. -- we premiered this documentary in l.a. and had hundreds of people come out. one of the people on the panel

that i moderated are talking about so many of these black and brown students feel harassed by the school resource officers. you said earlier that it is black and brown kids who these officers are riding up. who they are looking for in the streets. they feel harassed by these officers. what do you say to that? 1, i talked to them directly. i visit the camps, which is a ridiculous term that we use in california. we separate it into two groups. the students committing crimes, that needs to be addressed. a whole bunch of disengagement, non-engagement, being pushed out, the first response should not be to escalate to criminalization but real engage them into the school system, which is what we're doing. just in the first year, we cut

our suspension rate by 50%. there is an enormous opportunity to put them back in school with a different way, a different approach to dealing with the students who are struggling. tavis: how we got to this place, which i think is pretty stupid, where the response to skipping school is that you get kicked out of school, i have never understood how that works or why that policy exists. >> it comes from an era which i am seeing the country move away from, where all infractions, which we did the same, with the highest level response, which is, you are out of school. from failing to do homework to skipping school to a weapons violation. they are not to be treated the same way whatsoever. zero tolerance crept into the

mindset for reasons that were understandable but it has had massive unintended consequences. that would be an example of one of them. dedicated andvery unique mindset, which is what we expect all of our administrators to have. students who are skipping school are not walking away for a job. they are frustrated, struggling. that is the time we want to engage them the most, not the least. tavis: back to your earlier point about black and brown kids. l.a. is the second largest district in the country. district 4 -- disproportionately, the students being most criminal laws are black and brown males? why is that? >> i think there are a number reasons. i am not an expert. i am telling you what i feel and see in districts around the countries. i think that we fundamentally struggle with engagement of youth.

think changing the way we about instruction. the notion that students are going to come in, sit down, have their homework ready and cannot ait to go to school with fabric so torn in society and back home, those issues come into school. understanded to geometry. we view the signs of disengagement as defiance. disengagement and defiance are not the same and you know that. , i gets a simple reason out, just the opposite of what we're trying to do. i think they are issues of fear. what is going to happen if i challenge a student? what we find out is that in the schools where we are watching few if any suspensions, there is

a lot of teacher engagement with students. i could not be more proud of it and it is astonishing. tavis: let me ask you a two-part question and let you take your time. on one hand, i want ask you whether we are expecting too much of teachers. whether or not, with all of these issues, we are asking teachers to do too much. we are asking them to be a parent, a counselor. are we asking too much of teachers? what is the motivation for a teacher who has a problem child to engage in that child? you can get rid of the child. if the kid gets kicked out of the classroom, it makes the destruction go away. if the kid is not performing well and you are teaching to the test, it makes the test scores go up. what is the rationale for a teacher to engage a troubled

child? secondme start with the first. it is why i and everyone i know, why we come to work. that is to work with all students. the student who may be disruptive in class is in class. they are not not coming. they desperately want to be engaged. remember, every single student and lausd wants to be you or me. our goal is to help them get there. they want to participate in this democracy, a roof over their head, be able to graduate college. they want a living wage with benefits. that is our obligation around that. if they were not there whatsoever, we would not know that. but they are there. sometimes, disruptions our way to tell you because i do not

know any way to tell you i am struggling. parents are sending us the best they have. are we asking too much? yes, we are. when society is struggling to give our youth medical attention, dental attention, vision -- so many of our youth in l.a. and other districts, a huge number, in l.a., more than 80%, live in circumstances of poverty. they do not have those things. we are trying to meet those needs. we feed our students three times per day. there are students who are single parent households. there are students with no parent households, they have an older brother or sister or they are the parent in the house. we are trying to put those services inside of a state and country which is not reinvesting

in public education. less support of structural services in the community fall onto the school, less resources. what we tried to do is keep money focused at the school. it has been very difficult in these economic times, particularly in the state. tavis: as a superintendent of a school district, i expect your answer to this question would be in opposition to those who want to be invest in education. in education.st what is your read on how, as a society, we think we can de- invest and not pay long-term consequences? you are right. it is happening in california and many areas. education is one of the areas where the budget gets cut. help me understand the issues

long-term to our society. make thosewhat we cuts is because they do not have a voice. in any of those areas, people can speak up. that is very problematic. the long-term impacts in this country are brave -- grave. there was a report that talks about the achievement gap. it talks about a permanent recession if we are unable to invest and close that. the kids in l.a. are not competing for jobs. they're competing for people in china -- with people in china. this is a global society. , andimple job market economic viability of this state and this country are

inextricably linked to public education. i do not joke when i say that l.a. is america, only sooner. we look like this country is going to look. we had best figure this out and figure this out on the rights of kids first. tavis: what is the link between poverty and the school-to-prison pipeline that we are trying to get at in this special? >> when we work in schools, poverty is not destiny. living in circumstances of poverty is not actually automatic to criminalization. we also realize that the best economic stimulus is a diploma. if you want to break the cycle of poverty, we need to have you graduate. it is impossible if you are criminalize and in incarceration.

for many in the urban sector, it is graduation or incarceration. it better be graduation. when i am old, i want them taking care of me. they need to be competent. tavis: in the special tomorrow night, we talked to a judge in st. louis, a guy named jimmy edwards, who i am a huge fan of. he got so tired seeing the same kids before him day after day that he decided he should do something more than just flock to these kids up. he started an alternative school, innovation concept academy. a wonderful program where he gives -- gives these kids a choice. you can go to my school or i can lock you up. tomorrow night, the nation will be riveted by his work and what he has to say. he loves enough and cares enough to get off the bench and be the principle of an alternative school. couple of a

alternative schools in l.a. give me a sense of whether they are working and to the extent they are, why they are decent options for kids who cannot make it in a traditional school setting. >> one is the alternative schools that we have, a fairly significant number, we know that our students are staying with us and graduating. secondly, there is not enough of them. that is the one thing i would push for, that we could grow that. like, itching things have minor community infractions, i come in front of my peers, i get a sense of consequences. that is also working inside l.a. the notion that a student has this choice, i think that makes tremendous sense. i have total ownership of my next set of outcomes as opposed to someone doing something to

me. i think this school you described, that is probably why it has great success. tavis: we spent an inordinate amount of time hearing from young people. is thethe problems conversation about education reform is about everything other than what the kids are up against. administrators, teachers pay, everything except what the kids have to do every day. we spend a lot of time talking to young people. there are two things that stand out that will come through loud and clear in the special tomorrow night. kidsr one, a lot of these feel like they do not matter. they feel like they do not count. they feel like they are an afterthought. part of that comes from classrooms being so oversized and there are a number of other issues that these kids bring to

the discussion. talk to me about the notion that, when kids come to school, many of them do not feel -- you talk about the client not having a voice. for whatever reason, they do not feel valued, appreciated, a priority when they come into the classroom. >> i think they do feel that. they feel that outside of school and inside of school. the schools that are remarkably successful, dozens and dozens in los angeles, is where youth council, youth voice comes through inside the school. we have schools where all of the faculty and administration are hired with youth at the table. it looks very different in those schools, totally different. this is done for them and with them. there is an engagement around

that. day and goents every to schools all the time. students that i meet for the first time, many i go back and see them over and over again. the first time, it is, why are you talking to me? you have to say it is the reason i go to work. that is what i care about. this district is focused on youth rights. when you listen to that, it is very transformative. tavis: it is clear to me that these kids are really angry. there is a lot of anger. you ran a list of what makes them angry. the responsibilities that they bear, the drug and alcohol use in their families, the domestic violence in their homes, being the breadwinner for their family -- there is a long list

of these things. these kids come to school so angry and short-tempered, that fuse, it is a very short fuse. talk to me about the notion of anger. i sensed, talking to kids in st. louis, new orleans, even washington state, this is not just black kids. a lot of white kids are in trouble. so many of them are there for anger. they end up in the school-to- prison pipeline for fighting. talk to me about how you manage and what you see in your the angervis-a-vis that is inside of our babies. the school district needs strong and very present community partners. in many places, we are very lucky with that. on the east side or south central for the valley, you have community agencies who actually

work with and training youth workers to support the students. in those places, it is huge and makes an enormous difference. , i know youst thing are angry. do you want to talk about that? as opposed to the consequence. let me understand what the issue is, let me see if i can listen, if there is a way i can direct support and help to you. then we can talk about other brunn. to pretend that is not on the table is absurd. do you have any idea what i am going through? the answer is probably no. why don't you tell me so i can be a better teacher, a better administrator? when youth feel that there is no alternative and that they do not matter, the consequences do not matter either. that is an easy thing to see happen. when they do feel it matters and

that they matter, the consequence matters and they might think about the behavior is around that. when a university falls into the same way, that is another way that saying that you yourself do not have value. you are just a number, a fraction, a code. meis: in 30 seconds, tell whether or not, with all that you are up against in this district and what we're seeing across the country, are you hopeful? >> very. tavis: why? >> because i meet kids every day and they are amazing. they are absolutely amazing. students with the most unimaginable peril are having phenomenal outcomes. what worries me is those who are not hopeful. tavis: a couple of kids you will meet in the special tomorrow night will give you some hope as well. the school-to-prison pipeline is growing exponentially in this

country. the special is called "education under arrest." it airs tomorrow night on your local pbs station, 8:00 p.m. eastern. you will see dr. john deasy as part of that special tomorrow night. a lot of wonderful people you will meet. i hope you will tune in for that. thank you for coming on and i appreciate your time. that is our show for tonight. we will see you here tomorrow night. thanks for all -- thanks for watching. as always, keep the faith. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org-- >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with musician and actor peter yarrow. that is next time. we will see you then.

>> there is a saying that dr. king had that said there is always the right time to do the right thing. i just try to live my life every day by doing the right thing. we know that we are only halfway to completely eliminate hunger, and we have a lot of work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pbs.