tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis tonight a conversation with phil jackson. his new book is entitled "eleven rings: the soul of --"elevenre quote rings: the soul of success." >> there is a saying that dr. king had that said there is always the right time to do the

right thing. i try to live my life every day by doing the right thing. we know that we are only halfway to completely eliminating hunger and we have work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. phil jackson retired from basketball after earning 11 rings and another to rings as a player with the knickerbockers. that does not stop every team from pursuing him to come back to the bench. that decision may be forthcoming.

he has been spending a lot of .ime in his hometown in number one one on "eleven rings: the soul of success" the new york times, it is called "eleven rings: the soul of success -- it is called "eleven rings: the soul of success." i am glad to have you here. let me start by asking whether -- addicted toid winning. a bighink i make about those losses as really tough to get time. we were able to come back and butagainst the laker team,

we have a lot of distaste for losing, and there is something about losing that release x with you. -- that really sticks with you. >> if one can get addicted to winning, what is the antidote to that? yet ifnot want to lose, you can get addicted to it, what do you do with that? the assistant coach tex was an innovator. your last success, that is when you were a success. you are not a success right now. leveling moment to think we are back at square one

and we are going to climb the but the winning is so ephemeral. nine or eight months go into this journey. nothing really compares to the euphoria of winning. how have you navigated through those periods when you did not win the big one? >> i think it was due to energy. one of the things i noticed is it was really hard for teams to lose in the finals and come back in the next year. we had one team that came back

at us, and that was the utah jazz. with the lakers we never had anyone successful coming back at us in subsequent years, so those are things that demoralize a team, and you have to start all over again and say, we were a success, but that is not the penultimate thing. that is just a goal you have when you are a kid. you want to play in the finals. to win it is what is important. tavis: do you think our society puts too much focus on winning? >> it really does. the ncaa game was a terrific game. first half.in the they got back into the game.

was a game in which you should congratulate both teams for what they have done. a few in the last few years. duke gameler versus it was up in the air as to when they are going to win or lose. those are things that are .emarkable those are the moments that really stand out, and then we begin about who lost. those are the also-rans. there is so much emphasis on winning like the vikings who never got to that championship. you kind of go, what happened? why? you give two examples of

the college game, and one of them had sportsmanship written all in it. is the nba lacking in sportsmanship? in these playoffs, the technicals are off the chart .rea did -- off the chart i could have another conversation about why it has gotten so slow. it is all muscle. that is another conversation for espn one day. >> what really surprises me is the george james relationship i enjoyed. i think they have a good time going against each other. i think they complement each other. i like that. we have seen the bird man get a suspension for a game. those draw attention, but when your best layers are enjoying

the competition they are having against each other, it makes it a lot of fun. to mind something we saw recently in which two golfers encouraged each other to lay better. that was a lot of fun to see that. what is the problem in living in a society where everything is about pitting asself against the other opposed to so much about competing against yourself, yet you always put it in the situation of asking who you have kobe or michael. >> i did not want to get into better or best. these are the attributes that separate them. the competitive drive, their scoring capabilities, a lot of similarities, and the

similarities were so great. differences, and individually, they stood out. remarked on those, and i thought it was important to remark on those more from the standpoint of comparing the only the gift he had. i made that statement that that was the echelon he had reached. toust wanted to point out younger athletes there were some things that were different, and one was michael's education, that he went through an age education the process -- an educational process and had to learn about self-control, and he -- toad to do it back

sit back, and he had his moments. .e was ready for those moments with kobe it was right from high school. his talent was so good he could go there. there was something he missed out on that he could have was learningthat from a beginner's mind the process of basket all. -- basketball. tavis: what separates those players who have the killer instinct? what separates those versus others who are competitive to do not have that thing? >> success. tavis: there are a lot of players that have been unsuccessful teams but they are not the guy with that instinct erie good fax i agree. there is something about wanting to stand in the spotlight.

see lebron as someone who vacillates between wanting to do that and wanting to get someone else involved. that is the dichotomy he has involved. do i have to take this on by myself, or can i involve other guys in the process, whereas with michael and kobe, i still might be better at this than anyone else. they movedpleased into the realm of sharing with other teammates. any cannot think of example in my life where i vacillated on some ink where the vacillation was good for me. what is the bad side of his vacillating? he is one of the best in the but if he continues to

vacillate, what is the downside? have seen a couple of things happen in his career. he ran into a game that pushed him out the door. he felt he did not have enough teammates towards what he wanted to have as a winning combination, so he went to miami, where he felt he had a support group with him. we are seeing disintegration, whether it is the system of basket all or actually the .eople have come up short >> speaking of miami, what braun, and the big three, much was made of the big three coming there were other teams that try to do the same sort of thing.

if we can get these three major players, we can pull this off. talk to me specifically. is that the way to get get the ones, to player and build around that? is no magic formula for this. when i got to chicago and was an assistant coach, the general manager used to say we have never seen a championship team with a shooting guard. they have all been big man. bob was a big guy. then it was kareem and will ,ussell and wilt chamberlain and suddenly michael rosen there were six championships.

houston won with another center combination. it was unique to have it that way. there is no real magic formula. it depends on the dynamism of that individual. aim is to bring the rest of the group in. the individual cannot stand out enough he does not bring the rest of the group in. it has to be a team effort. individually he can be stopped. golf is an individual sport, but basketball is the one the individual has the most. > >> you were talking about the teams. .hey popped a picture up

what were you thinking when rodman made his 32 north korea? ?- his journey to north korea >> good, we have got somebody who speaks the language. >> dennis rodman as ambassador? >> his verbal skills are limited. he rarely talks. they have great communication. we have got somebody in there that was an ambassador. now we have got to send him to a ran and see what happens. iran and send him to see what happens. tavis: i have always believed we are who we are because someone loves her. the backinated by story. tell me about charles and elizabeth. >> my parents had a marriage of

passion, and the passion was about religious beliefs. they were both immigrant families. werether's family mennonites who came from minnesota. doing low land reclamation work. their fervor caught them in this pentecostal movement in the 1920's. my parents were there at the formation of the denomination, and my father was a man who did not consider himself learned. he enjoyed his dairy farm and sell the calling, so there was a dedication. i was dedicated in the service of god, so there was a continual

centering of a greater purpose. a tremendous competitor, but it was about the dedication moving towards the one, so our lives were centered around church and doing the right service. my mother had an attribute, doing things that were beneficial to the community and her church. my father was a real humble man and rose to become superintendent in the church in miami. he was much more comfortable as a pastor. , grew up sitting in a pew

watching my parents. my mother played the piano. she was a spiritual person who emanated that energy. she would ask my friends, are you right with the lord? if you had to die today, do you think you would go to heaven? she was always spreading the word and instilling it. my father would go to the jails and hospitals and visit people. man people really adored. they dragged me along with this course of action, and i think that rocked me to where i am as a basketball coach. of as in the service greater purpose. they are a lakers fan.

one thing i want to bring up about your up ringing, because before -- your upbringing, because before i fell in love i grew ups a coach, in a pentecostal church. i say this with all due respect. some faith, and henna costal is not the only one region can be somewhat -- pentecostal is not the only one -- can be somewhat dogmatic. fromow you either wrote it or did not get trapped by it so much that you have been able to get on your own spiritual journey. how did that happen?

think we were taught to have an open mind. my mother was lutheran. my father was methodist. they form this pentecostal beliefs. the dogma grew out of that. there were things that would come up. they would say, we saw your daughter. she was wearing capri pants. there were others against boys and girls swimming together. i used to question my parents .bout it here again -- about it they said, you have to feel what the spirit tells you. you have to feel right your self. the first time i heard about evolution i had to deal with it

in college. it struck a real blow to my fundamental belief, but i had to deal with what it was about. am i going to have to deal with other ideas, or do i have to push them out because of a overrides them -- because something overrides them? that happened with buddha. they do not worship a god. how is that possible? it really is about enlightenment , so i started dealing am, that that i presents that is within us, and isstarted to click there something that guides us.

allow that to happen in a way that we give voice to. >> when you are exposing your players to the spirit you have --osed them to, most often did you welcome that? did you find resistance? i am trying to get a sense of how that was met. >> it was met by presenting an idea that was like here is a process we are going to explore. you go in the weight room and lift weights. you do all these things to strengthen your body. this is strengthening your mind.

when you can always come back and center yourself so you are floating in the moment so to speak. most of the guys were very receptive. some of them have felt the spirit in their life, and i know it exists. >> there is so much in here, and we barely scratched the surface. i want to close with that other question. in one shape or form, why do

coaches matter? could anyone have done what phil ?ackson did why did phil jackson matter? a coalition ofs things that are happening. people come together in moments that are unique. i had opportunities before them. minnesota was an expansion team, and i was not taken as a coach. i was not charismatic enough to be that coach, but the right thing happened at the right time for me. there is aeel guidance, that something made fortunate, yets

i was ready to be in the right lace at the right time. you know that scripture. i know it well. the book is called "eleven rings: the soul of success." written by the guy who has 11 rings plus two, so 13 total. it is number one on "the new york times here go this guy is used to being number one. good to have you. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with whedon.did --

his next movie is much ado about nothing. we will see you then. >> there is a saying that dr. king had that said there is always the right time to do the right thing. i try to live my life every day by doing the right thing. we know that we are only halfway to completely eliminating hunger and we have work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. daniel mansergh:

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