tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley.tonight a conversation tout president obama's trip africa and his attempt to engage. his trip includes visit to senegal, south africa, and tanzania. there is concern u.s. interest in africa are being overshadowed by china. we will get a sense of what is being done, and then we will turn to a conversation with the former u.s. ambassador to south africa. nelson mandela became the blacky's first

president. we are glad you joined us. are comingrsations up right now. >> there is a saying that dr. king had that said there is always the right time to do the right thing. i try to live my life every day by doing the right thing. we know that we are only halfway to completely eliminating hunger and we have work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

>> president obama wraps up his neck and official trip to africa tomorrow. the journey had lengthy of symbolic moments including a visit to the prison cell where nelson mandela was held for eight teen years. it also highlighted africa's andging economic potential emphasizing engagement in a country that has benefited from a wave of chinese investments. joining me is nicole lee, president of transafrica, and add because the group dedicated to -- advocacy group dedicated to justice for the developing world. good to have you on the program. let me start by asking whether this has and more about the orissa course -- symbolism

substance. >> it is top. tough. there are a lot of issues that could have been dealt with. you have exploitation by corporation. he chose to focus on building africa for africans. he talks about small and middle class businesses. he also touched on some of the nuances, some of the problems africans have been dealing with. you have exploitation, and so many resources are being used for other are best is. too little, too late?

been no shortage of commentators who complained the president has not given enough attention to africa. i guess his track record has not been as good. there are a number who complain not enough has taken place. too is your sense that little, too late? complicated. every day amazing children are born in africa, and they deserve at cap. far too many are being born into poverty. i think and you compare what president obama is up against -- versussident bush,

president bush, resident bush was lobbied to do more work in africa, and some of that work transafrica has been supportive of, and some of it we are not. resident obamae has to be very careful. he is a fine mind when it comes to africa. he did not go to kenya. people thought, of course he is going to kenya because he is a son of kenya, but it was a prudent choice not to go because of the elections just held. you have a president who has been brought up for charges with the criminal court. it is a fine line. while i want to see more engagement, more of our money going to help the people of africa, i do see that it is important to understand he is

dealing with many forces that are having an impact on his choice is. >> how do you think he navigated the trip to south africa, given the condition of nelson mandela? fax i get is tough. -- >> i think it is tough. an up andhealth has down. if he had gone people would say it was opportunistic. i think it was a essential he honored the family. he talked openly about mandela's role in the continent and really theing us to this point, iconic role and the behind the scenes role. i am pleased he visited the family.

same time, this is a father, a grandfather, a hug been. -- uh-huh than. i think it makes sense only close family members are seeing him. i think it was a prudent choice. >> i am going back to this chinese issue. how concerned should we be by the aggressive push by china into the continent, and do we see what we were guilty of back in the day, colonizing the continent? >> i think our government should the concerned from a foreign-policy give, -- respect it if but we should not be surprised. africa was used as a proxy.

we really tried to play africa against it self because of our issues, because of the cold war with the soviet union. african people are very typical of the u.s. role on the continent. here you have china come in. china is not going to talk about human rights. not going to say, you are on our side must so we think you are the good guys or we think you are the bad guys. they want resources am a and they are willing to give up his for resources. the same time, many government officials and ngo officials say at least it is a cleaner deal. at least we understand what is happening with china.

>> if there is a waords understood over and over again, it is the word heart ownership. .- the word partnership he we really see africa as a partner, or are we treating them as less than? >> when it comes to our business partnerships, some of those deals are not fair, and that was something he was beginning to when we were in and a golf. -- he was speaking to when we were in cynical -- senegal. it has to do with westerns of class and at the city. what is important is people in the united states, whether you

be african american or whether you have never been to africa and have nothing to do with the continent, we have to encourage other governments that they are playing fair. that is a essential because when our children are dealing with the world and inheriting what we have, we want to make sure we are fair because that is a way we will have friends. be a: how can there even debate about whether the first african-american resident has done enough for the continent? did we give this president of pass? was it wrong to expect more from him? how does it continue? >> often i get that question, and i do not worry about

resident obama. i worry -- about what resident obama is doing. i worry about what we are doing. i think we need to have values and principles. i know they have been on the forefront of responding to s that are bound to come. everyone of us has to meet our maker. they have to be at the forefront. me close by asking whether there is anything you can imagine in the massive body of

a shiningrepresents .eacon i think with the hunger strike and all that he did, you cannot talk about apartheid ending in south africa without saying the word transafrica. give me an idea of how you see the work. ,> i appreciate that question and i think it is so important. anotherll never he moment like that. collision offect so many years of hard work. there are so many people who made that happen.

i think the idea of transafrica is so relevant people have a duty to respond when we see our government do something that may in another country. they responded to the people saying, not look at what apartheid is doing to us him about what your country is doing. today we see apartheid. we see global apartheid. those who are till disenfranchised. orther it is columbia venezuela or any place where people do not have what they .eed to survive i think transafrica is more relevant than ever.

mandelahave the #called matters. there are issues if mandela were help the he would eat taking up. he would be talking about -- he would be taking up. he would be talking about debt and healthcare. tavis: good to have you on the program. thanks for your work. we are glad you joined us for a conversation. .ames joseph was ambassador they work together for renewal, giving a unique respect this on what that country is and during.

is enduring. good to have have you on this program. let me start by asking about your thought about the .resident trip to africa i am anxious to hear your comment. >> a visit to the united states i and a country is the ultimate form of the. -- by any country is the ultimate form of diplomacy. i am so pleased he went to africa because it is an opportunity to showcase the continent. this is a continent that is on

the move. it is important to have a rest that gets to see and hear the site and sounds. this trip last so many days. it is over. after his brief .isit if that is important, why are we running that can to china? >> we were once second two european countries emma particularly those who had so it isho settled, good to see a recognition that this is a continent worth pursuing, worth establishing

relationships with. theomist are predicting potential for trade tends to be thereica, so i am pleased is finally a recognition in the united dave -- state for the economy. when i was ambassador to south africa, cap saying to american -- kept saying to american business, let's look around. there was going to be a great opportunity for trade, but . wes focus on stereotypes saw photos of starving kids instead of a mock received. -- of a mock received. >> what is it going to take many ?ears after the posting

what is it going to take for u.s. business to take africa serious lead -- seriously? wax i ain't when you have the the hanks -- >> i think when you have think tanks all doing s, it is beginning to get people's attention, and certainly the fact china observed that is owing to accelerate our engagement with the continent. you were our ambassador at the time of nelson mandela's presidency. how have you been processing the the media attention on his health?

been personally navigating these weeks? >> it has been difficult times. all life atognize some point comes to an end. here is a man who has contributed so much as by being being there in addition to what he has done that one becomes concerned when it looks like it is coming to an end, but i tend to look around and say, what are , andthings he contributed i hear people talking about all sorts of things. there are things i will deemphasize for the rest of my life, and i hope historians will as well.

demonstrates the capacity for forgiveness, the commitment to reconciliation. the second thing is what he damaged rated about leadership. -- demonstrated about leadership. he demonstrated leadership is not so much about what you know or what you do. it is about how to be. him it was about how to be. the adversary was something martin luther king tried to teach about as well. it included much more than that. it included a spiritual intelligence. to winnie letter

mandela from prison in which he said he took care of his spiritual needs by 15 minutes of meditation every day, and he advised people to do the same. i liked his insight when he said a saint is a sinner who keep coming back. >tavis: your first point is about the human spirit. the second is about leadership. the third would the what? dueandela was also and is to politician. -- an astute politician. , but we on his al you fail to recognize he was a negotiator. he knew when and how to compromise as strategy.

in thei talked earlier show about how nicole assess president obama given the deteriorating health of nelson mandela, how the president had done in that regard, and she gave him high marks. since you know the south african people so well, say a word about how we keep reading they are so troubled by this deathwatch, by people not letting him go and the media camped out, trying to find out .hen that move meant will come say to me a little bit about how you perceive the south african people and what troubles them

at this time. thet is human nature that possibility of losing a legend affect people in serious ways. the south african people are plural people, so it is difficult to talk about the south african people. the most the people are worried about what happens after he goes, but i have been hearing that since he finished his first five years, and south africa's economy has could tenured to grow, and new and newip has emerged, leadership continues to grow everywhere. i ran a leadership training row graham -- program, and i had 140 graduate from that row graham. -- that program.

they are outstanding people. i am very optimistic about the future of that country. tavis: what to your mind is the legacy of his role as resident, and how does that impact our relationship into the future? thate has to keep in mind anybody who follows in icon like mandela is automatically diminished in thatcher, so we -- in stature, so we keep looking for another mandela. a man might that comes around not once in a generation but once in a century. we need to realize he was the next reddit -- index ordinary person, -- an extraordinary person, and there was one thing about his ability to transcend

his humanity. part of it came around his temperament. , butll find other leaders finding another mandela is difficult. am honored to have the james joseph on this row graham. it is always a delight to talk andou as the world waits watches and praise. it is great to have you share your insight in these remarkable times. >> you are most welcome. >> that's it for tonight. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with the gospel great.

we will see you then. j >> there is a saying that dr. king had that said there is always the right time to do the right thing. i try to live my life every day by doing the right thing. we know that we are only halfway to completely eliminating hunger and we have work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pbs.

% welcome. i'm rebekah king reed. this week we're in the win chester mystery house in san jose. it's one of the bay area's interesting places. there are acres of gorgeous gardens. and the fortune in the tiffany windows. we kept car penters working nonstop for 38 years building this lavish mansion. later, we'll meet an architect building as long as mrs. winchester and a man who lives with