tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight, a conversation with bullets surprise wedding the journalist michael d'antonio about the era of catholic scandal, blocking the catholic church -- rocking the catholic church to its core. decades, legal expertise and council to get justice for themselves and their loved ones. us,e glad you have joined coming up right now. >> there is a saying that dr. king had. he said, there is always the right time to do the right thing. i just try to live my life every

day by doing the right thing. we know that we are only about halfway to completely eliminate hunger and we have work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: in a comprehensive text called "mortal sins," pulled a surprise winner michael the most documents how severe crisis the church has faced since the reformation.

part detective story and partly the briefing, it weaves together the stories of clergy and ladies working to cover up their crimes. an honor to have you on this program. let me start at white be unorthodox place. -- what might be an unorthodox place. i wonder why this happened to the catholic church. one has to believe there is no other faith tradition where boys or girls are being ,olested or maltreated disrespected -- i find that hard to believe. others whereny people are misbehaving but all of the attention -- why did the catholic church get caught? >> a couple of things at work. this is a massive institution

with 1.2 billion members. in the united states alone, it is worth more than ibm. in part, lawyers seeking claims. how they are going to go after the biggest targets. this is a very big target. hierarchical rule. if you are in an independent congregation, the protestant church, usually there is a board and control. if a parent came to the board with a complaint, a parent on the board is going to respond. in this case, there was all sorts of closing of ranks, priests and supporting each other. it is a problem of a clerical culture unique to catholicism. tois: do i take your point

mean that part of this horrific scandal has to do with the hierarchy, the way the institution itself is structured? >> extends into the political realm. as with many crimes, there is the original crime and then the cover up that makes people so betrayed. withu come to your pastor this kind of problem, and they mobilize to shut you down and shame you and ostracize you, that goes all the way up to the cardinal. it is devastating. matter.the crux of the tavis: i believe that power

corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. i am not sure that i buy the notion that just because an institution is hierarchical, what follows is that people are going to misbehaved from the top down or the bottom up. how much of this has to do with the kinds of people in these positions. >> the pope asked for a report on the mental condition of the priests. the report said that too many of them are seeking this isolated cell of the life as a refuge for their problems. a difficulty, your wiring is off, or you are interested in children, you might lead this life that says we will keep you restricted or

control your sexuality from outside. it is part of the dynamic. we will confirm it is this celibate and sexual climate that is a big element of this. in 1990, document in the same thing. there is a life that is detached from a lot of the normal .ontrols there is a healthy dynamic that is part of it. tavis: i love the way you have gone about writing this, a novelesque climate. i want to push back on this issue of celibacy because one can choose a life of celibacy and the choice can make you go insane and start doing things you otherwise know you have no

business doing. i come back to what was happening inside the church that allowed them to allow people to be placed in these position who were seeking refuge. >> there was a desperate need for priests. in the 1960's, there is a complaint in the church itself. but many men and women left the religious life because they thought that they could do good works outside the church and maybe they wanted more from life than inside. tragedy ofk that the this is this goes back more than 1000 years. some of the original writings in the catholic church and dealt with the abuse of young people. they talked about it within the

confines of confession. this is sadly a thing that goes on in our world. a sheltered environment where you might have excessive power or protection enables you, and this is what so many victims are furious about, and labeling. there than 500 priests put in jail for this. thousande been several accused by the church itself, $3 billion in settlements, and it is still going on. today, 6000 pages were released in milwaukee. it is a big problem. about thel me more shortage of priests. there was a shortage of priests. how does the catholic church to go about -- recruiting?

>> you are supposed to be called. we talk about being people called the the ministry. i think there is a healthier and more positive process going on now. it used to be that families would produce, this boy is going to be a priest. a lot of emphasis would be put on telling bright young men that this is your future. the good news is that they are mature,y older and more more experienced in life. they are not trained as high school students, as full grown man. system it is a better that we have in part because this problem was discovered and pursued. >> you say this is been going on for 1000 years, i take your point that is not like in 1985 when the first high priest ever molested a child, i take your

point. but it begs the question as to why there was this explosion. how did we catch on to this? what brought this to our attention? >> part of it was the media. winfrey. somebody willing to talk about sex, family, problems, crimes against children in a way that it was not talked about before. it encouraged victims' families to step forward. they pursued attorneys that were also ready. it happens on both hands. the case in minneapolis and the case in louisiana. there is a very orderly lawyer inspired by the civil rights movement that got in there and fought. this is a human rights issue. the safety and welfare of children. the time was right, society was moving in the right direction.

the other thing that i credit is a collision between american ideals of equality, the fact that this is a marquee. our society matured to the point where the monarchical talk about role was all powerful. i am talking from your book on page 8. as one priest observed during a public appearance of pope benedict, he is like a man that comes upon a burning house and focuses his attention on the pretty flowers in the front garden. theocuses his attention on pretty flowers in the front garden. that is the way that this particular priest observed the way the pope benedict was handling or not handling these cases of sexual abuse. that is a strong indictment.

>> it is. one of the documents came out today talked about how frustrated the cardinal in new york was when he was in milwaukee because he could not get the vatican to move against these men. some of them would have accusations that would run 10 years for resolution. there were priests that abused 200 children in one case, students at a school for the death. he died before he was kicked out of the priesthood. the frustration american church leaders have with rome dragging its feet was enormous. the pope benedict who was first reside in 600 years resigned because the thing he was worn out by this. i don't think he could stand another day of this crisis going on. i am not naive asking this, but where are the reasons

giving your research that the church in rome dragged its feet? embarrassment? not wanting to pay the money? legal? political? cultural? spiritual? best word. as the when cardinals are elevated, they take enough to protect the church from scandal. this is something that goes back more than 1000 years. their view of scandal is not a crime committed, it is the publicity around it. ofy also have this concept hiding the truth as a matter of conscience where they feel that to protect the church, you can lead others astray. this is very much part of the culture, and i think the shame

they felt it is very human. part of the tragedy here is that the church could lead us to a better place where this is concerned. i was with the pastor last night that works with churches overwhelmed by scandal. she said, wouldn't it be something if it was the church that called attention to the need to protect children and turned it around and led in this direction? talking about the human problems that need to be talked about. pope francisances might do just that? >> i have a lot of hope for him, a man that has refused the trappings of office. he doesn't want the red slippers or to be treated like a demigod on earth. he also comes from latin america, and if you travel there, within the church, you know a great many priests have families.

knows that they function well as pastors. 10 inore hopeful with saint peter's chair that i have been for 30 years. there was a time for all of us, where steroid use was rampant in baseball. i am not by even saying this but i want to believe that based upon the crackdown, and the embarrassment, i want to believe that we got to a time just a few years ago where that kind of rampant use in did, and baseball is able to close the book on that. move on to an era where baseball once again as a clean sport. not sure about cycling just yet, but about baseball, that is an example, a comparison.

i wonder if there is a day or year that will come, one may be passed were you think that this era of the worst of the scandal is over, that the church gets it. there will always be somebody that act a fool, but are we there yet? is it too soon to know? >> is too soon to know because there is a dynamic with children abused or they don't come forward until they are adults. what i want to see is radical truth. this is the fascinating concept that some of the people that fought for justice, and in the book, people struggled with drugs or alcohol. >> unlikely heroes in this book. >> including a priest that found himself on the edge of suicide because he just could not what -- stand what was happening inside the church.

upwe see this pope standing and admit to all of this and open the documents and say, how come in and help us, they need help. if that starts to happen, i think this ends. tavis: what does it do? what does it do for the standing of the catholic church if they take that approach? >> i think they become relevant in a lot of places they are not relevant today. book andreland in the if you went to ireland in the 90's, you could not get into a church on sunday morning. if you were a minute late, it was packed. today, they are more than half empty. the decline of the catholic church as immoral institution, as a beacon for people of faith and of morality is undeniable.

for the priests because people see someone in the color and are automatically skeptical. tavis: i was going ask you about that. the overwhelming majority of people playing baseball are not substance abusers, they are athletes. a lot of high-profile people that were not. they give everybody else a bad name. how much of this is unfair to the catholic church? >> the church is the people, the church is not the bishops and cardinals. it was around 12% or 13% accused, that is shockingly

high. closer tot number is five or six. i think they have been shaken by this and they are moving to put procedures in place to make sure that these men don't get this power and authority. who has the title of father. it is very close to a family relationships. the trailry close to within the family. tavis: i am not catholic, but if i were, how do i read this book? what is the take away for me? if you want to know the truth about your own institution, and you understand that the institution is not the church,

and you have a christian mind- set. if you believe in the message of christ, you may see an example of people got a stray, but also be inspired. ironically, by some of the people fighting the church. by their christian example. there is courage here, truth telling that is remarkable. tavis: how do i put this book down? how do i put this down and not leave my church? >> that is a challenge to your faith. the more influential people and loss angeles who has his name on the new cathedral for the donations that he made had one for me awhile ago and i was kind of afraid when he asked where i was working on because he is a devout catholic.

he said, michael, go get them. whoe are many catholics will be so dismayed by this scandal and by the message in the book that it will shake them. but they own this church, it is there. it is not owned by people in rome, they are not the church. if you want to fight for your church, it is laid out here. tavis: i take your point that the church is not owned by the people in rome, and yet, it is. institutionally, it is. what agency does an everyday catholic have in controlling their church? changing their church? >> this is a great calling for someone because no bishop has been held accountable. , ire is one in kansas city

believe, convicted related is covering up. it is a misdemeanor charge because the crime did not fall under felony. he is still the ship. how is that so? how have people not demand that this man be ousted. there is a role for people to play if they can wake up and do it. they run the risk of their church falling into irrelevancy. tavis: can you imagine that in our lifetime, the catholic church could be rendered irrelevant? >> is a little hyperbole in the west. i think in the west, it has its power. america,rica and latin it is growing. what is fascinating to consider, as developing countries acquire legal systems

more like ours where people have access to attorneys, as the information age sweeps over those countries, will they have the same problems? cases ine of the abuse virtually every country in the world. i am not sure this is going to follow the church. you eventually run out of places where you can put troublesome priest in practice this extraction. there is an extraction of resources that take place. the end of the book, i guess, has yet to be written. tavis: this is the end of the conversation and i saved the most important question to last, which is, what of the victims? >> some are very inspiring.

the of turned their victimization into victory and they have been empowered by their experience. they putme advocates, their lives back together. sadly, there is one really of the first, one to come forward. in what isrecently essentially the middle of a forest in alabama because he is afraid to let himself be part of society. this is a wound that can literally wreck your life. when people say they are hungry for money, they are just complaining, unless you have met them and seen their suffering, you don't have any sense of what they are going through. it runs the gamut. day, one day at a time.

song thathink of a earth has no sorrow that have and cannot heal. the book is called mortal sins, the era of catholic scandal. thank you for your work. that is the show for tonight, as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with scientist and author dr. carl hart on his book that examined the causes of addiction. we will see you then. >> there is a saying that dr. king had. he said, there is always the right time to do the right thing. i just try to live my life every day by doing the right thing. we know that we are only about halfway to completely eliminate

hunger and we have work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pbs.

tonight on "quest" -- elephant seals dive deeper, swim farther and hold their breath longer than almost any mammal on earth. but how do they accomplish such remarkable feats? bay area scientists have begun to unlock the secrets of these aquatic athletes. and after multiple unmanned missions to mars, we still don't know if life has ever existed there. nasa scientists are hoping a new high-tech rover will help them solve the mystery. major funding for "quest" is provided by the national science