tavis: tavis: tonight, to conversations about american institutions under duress. our public schools and justice system. first, jo-ann wallace, president of the national league are -- national legal and defender aid association. the landmark supreme court decision that guaranteed the defense regardless of ability to pay. that is being gutted by sequestration, leaving many without the legal defense we are all guaranteed. then, rafe esquith, who for more than 30 years has inspired his students. the only teacher to ever be awarded his -- the national medal of arts. he is written -- has written a

new book called "real talk for a no-eachers," offering nonsense primer about what works and what does not. those conversations coming up right now. ♪ >> there is a saying dr. king has. it is always the right time to do the right thing. i tried to that my life every day by doing the right thing. we know we are only halfway to completely eliminating hunger. we have a lot of work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

>> --tavis: the 50th anniversary of gideon versus wainwright, where the supreme court ruled states are required to provide counsel in terminal cases to pay their unable to own attorneys. sequestration has undermined the ability to provide legal services to those who needs help , including the legal services corporation, which relies on money from congress for 130 legal aid officers. even before sequestration the system was underfunded, with cases turned down by attorneys already underfunded. , president of the national legal aid and defender association, has seen the fallout from these cutbacks and joins us to talk about the impact sequestration is having on our legal system. good to have you here. >> nice to be here. tavis: this is a major moment in

, state, where states courts are required to make sure that the indigent and the poor make -- have the resources to be represented in court. take me back 50 years ago and help me understand what the conditions were, what was happening that forced this into play. >> so 50 years ago was when the supreme court decided the landmark case of gideon versus wainwright. mr. gideon was an individual who was brought to court without a lawyer when he asked for a lawyer and said he could not pay for one area the court did not give him one. from his jail cell, he wrote a petition to the u.s. supreme court and ultimately the court said that in this country if a person is brought into court and has to face the state, the resources of the state, they have the right to an attorney under a con -- under the constitution. and if they cannot afford 1, 1 has to be provided to them. virtually every case since then

where the issue has come up, an accused is person losing their liberty, the supreme court has stood firm and said, yes, you have the right to counsel. that was extended in misdemeanor cases, applet cases, and others before the court. tavis: there is a documentary, i have been getting a lot of e- mails that say i need it. i'm about to go on vacation a couple weeks and then it is at the top of my list. do you know this documentary? >> gideons army. lisi at. please see it. a documentary that really shows you what the public defender system is like in the country, how important it is, what a tough job, an important job that it is. why we need to have adequately funded public defense systems. i recommend it to you. you should see it. it is a fabulous job by the ford foundation. has a-- nlada

partnership to get the word out about what is happening in this country. 50 years after gideon, people across the country get convicted without ever talking to a lawyer . or if they do have a lawyer, get appointed to them, it is often one who does not have the resources they need to do the job. tavis: i keep hearing about it because there is a lot of buzz when this came out. this documentary category is very competitive in this town when it comes to oscar season. a lot of buzz on this documentary, which i will see. you might want to check it out yourself. to your point, 50 years after gideon versus wainwright, what is the condition of our legal system for the poor and the indigent? >> there has been a crisis in this country since gideon. really, the public defender system has never been fully funded. as i said, every day in this country people still get convicted without ever talking to a lawyer. often they do not have a lawyer

who has the resources to do the job. the federal system right now, this is having, this is new. until now, the federal system, the federal public defender system has widely been regarded as a model, unlike the states, where there are problems in states and localities across the country. but the federal system has been one that has been looked to as setting the bar for indigent defense. because of budget cuts and sequestration on top of that, that system is being decimated. right now they are facing in this year 10% budget cuts, which forces them to lay off staff, forcing them to have staff take days off without pay and close offices. whenthat means is that people are brought into the federal system and accused of the crime, there may be big -- delays in them getting a lawyer. or they may get a lawyer who does not have the resources to adequately represent them because their resources have been -- access to experts is being cut.

this is a terrible, terrible turn of events that is happening this year as we mark the anniversary of gideon. and we have to do something about it. tavis: what has been fascinating to me over the last few months is to look at the debate that got a little bit of lift off. not as much as i would like to see personally. but the debate since president obama has been reelected about guantanamo and what happens to guantánamo. are we going to close on time of? the debate has been about the rights or the lack thereof of these persons being held at guantanamo. what has been fascinating for me to watch is how that debate has been -- gotten a bit of a liftoff about what what happens to persons at guantánamo. this conversation about american citizens were being denied counsel, being delayed when it comes to cases being heard, has gotten barely lift off even though this is 50 years later since the historic case. >> people need to understand what is happening. what is happening in states across the country.

every state across the country. not just the south, as people sometimes think. there really is a crisis in the indigent defense system. becauseederal system, of cuts field by sequestration, they have had to cut federal defenders. looking at cutting 10% of the budget this year for 2013. for 2014, they have been told to expect another 10 -- another 14% to 23% on top of that. that means that they will have to lay off additional staff, close offices, often closing offices in places where there are not other attorneys to pick up the cases. of issue here is, because the fifth amendment rights, because of the constitutional right to counsel, public defenders cannot control their workload. there has to be an attorney representing that individual. so sequestration does not make sense in terms of the cats that -- cut it is supposed to have.

you still have to pay for counsel. tavis: if the broker -- if the supreme court said 50 years ago you are obligated to have counsel and these cats taken, -- cuts cake in, the workload increases. what happens to the individuals who, again, have a constitutional right now to receive counsel? >> what happens is the individuals will sit in jail longer. individuals, all of whom are presumed innocent and many of whom will ultimately be found to be innocent, will sit in jail for longer and will not have their day in court as they should. justice in our country should be swift, should be accurate, should be fair. our system should be accountable. tavis: how do you sit in jail longer? there is a growing debate. we disobey federal decree essentially that we had to put -- we had to release people from prisons because of prison overcrowding in the state of california. not the only state where prison

overcrowding is a real issue. people sit in jail longer. i am trying to justify sitting in jail longer with prisons already overcrowded. to say nothing of your rights being delayed. where do you sit longer? >> there are some instances where judges have said that they would let people out of prison or jail if they cannot have counsel appointed in a timely fashion. but ultimately in many instances you wait, individuals weight in jail until they can have their day in court. with these thoughts -- cuts, this can be much delayed. there are costs to the individuals and families and the administration of justice when there are delays. and to the accuracy of verdicts. tavis: and to the state. the longer they sit there, the more you are paying to house them, the feed them. >> that is one of the benefits of qualified counsel. it really can reduce jail and prison costs are doing their job. it is critically important that in this year, as we mark the

50th anniversary of gideon, that we have funding for the federal public defender system and that we take a look at what is happening in the defense systems across the country. tavis: we care about this here. if we did not, we would not have you on the program. i say that because i'm wondering what your senses of how much the american people, even when the year about this, how much they care about this. i asked the question against the backdrop -- i was found -- stunned when the polls and surveys came out after we learned more about nsa and phone records being caps and, to say nothing of the associated press. the american people asked by pollsters, what you make of the federal government tapping into potentially your phone records, etc. the country basically snoozed. the polls indicated a majority of americans said, i ain't got nothing to hide. if i ain't got nothing to hide, why do i care about them snooping? if they do not say that, it a,

it will make our country safer than i'm willing to give up some liberties and freedoms. aclud large, beyond the there was not this large cry about people's rights being trampled on in the name of national security, even if it means the government snooping into your records. the american people and fellow citizens, if they do not care about their own individual lives concerned, why do we care about indigent people sitting in jails and prisons? >> the fact of the matter, when people find out about this, first of all the jaws drop. people are surprised that there are people who go unrepresented because they assume at the -- that the supreme court case is in effect and that governments follow it. that is what they see on tv. when they learn that is not the case, they are shocked and appalled and saddened. the fact of the matter is that polls show people do care about this issue when they learn about it. people do believe there has to be adequately funded public

defense systems. they believe -- understand that in america's system of justice there is no justice in less revenue attorney. it is too complex -- unless you have an attorney. the criminal justice system is far too complex to navigate without that. they understand there is no real justice unless you have a qualified counsel either side. when the hear about it and understand what is going on, learn what they can do about it, which in this case, tell congress they need to act to exempt the fifth amendment from sequestration and adequately fund the federal criminal justice system and the indigent defense system, as well as help the states, help the states to meet their mandate, their federal constitutional mandate. people care. people will do it. those instances where it would be nice if life imitated art. you can get a lawyer faster on l.a. law or law and order, pick a tv show.

faster than you can find in a real court in this country if you happen to be poor or indigent. i digress. 2013,s 50 years now, since gideon versus wainwright, the historic case. a documentary out called "gideon's army" that i will be checking out and you should as well. for now, we thank you. >> thanks for having me. tavis: coming up, a conversation with rafe esquith. stay with us. ♪ there is no more important profession than educating students. for more than 30 years, no teacher is in a better job than rafe esquith, demanding the high standards for generations of fifth-graders to a level of learning and excellence that earned him a medal of arts. the only teacher to be so honored. he is written a new book called "real talk for real teachers" folder with -- filled with no nonsense advice. his students are known as the

hobart she experienced because of their deep dive into the work. they performed "the tempest" which became more relevant by including the great anthem "get up, stand up" as a reminder of the importance for justice. ♪ get up, stand up ♪ stand up to fight ♪ get up, stand up ♪ stand up for your rights ♪ get up, stand up ♪ don't give up the fight ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ tavis: speaking of standing up, you were telling me before we came on camera that you were

with a group of your kids in a hotel room when the trayvon, the verdict in the george zimmerman case days ago was announced. tell me about how you talk to kids about that. >> i basically try to tell them the difference between logic and what may be people see when they are presented evidence, and justice. they are not always together. that is what the students could not understand. where is the justice? i tell them, that is why we all have to keep participating in this country. or else he died for nothing. that is why i want them to really become a part of our system. make it better. are is why i think teachers so important in getting kids not to tune out, but to tune in and participate in this country. tavis: it is summertime. why were you even with these kids? >> i travel a lot with my students. there are things you can learn outside the classroom. so we hit the road a lot. i do not know if you are aware

do not finishs college. they are not prepared. they do not know about life. so we go on the road and we learn about things like doing laundry and managing your time. they do that is not on a test, but it is in the test of life. that is why my class is so successful. tavis: that is a lot to ask the teachers beyond the classroom. >> i am not asking for teachers to be like me. i'm a bit crazy. i am asking teachers to understand that we must make the education relevant to the children. if they are only working for the test or to please us, they are not going to be interested in school. i try to show children how every lesson i teach them will be something they use in their real life. that is why my kids work so hard. not because i'm so cool. they are working for themselves. this is the advice i'm giving the teachers in the book. tavis: how do you even find the agency to do all that you do in your classroom when you are, as a teacher, demanded, required to

get them to pass these tests? >> it is funny. good teachers are an endangered species because they are giving up. anduse of the tests everything. i am suggesting -- i have a book called the quiet man. you quietly rebel against the system. the system is too big for anyone teacher at the staff meetings to -- i'm not my head and say, absolutely, of course we will do it. we do it. but quietly i inject my own lessons, my own nuts ending books. outstanding books. malcolm x is not on the curriculum. whether you agree with him or not, he is an important voice for kids to hear. i do all that fantastic literature quietly. when my students do well on the test, people leave me alone. that is another great piece of advice for young teachers were frustrated. if you stick with that you can build a fantastic classroom. then teaching becomes fun. this is my 31st year. people leave me alone now.

they did not my first five years. that is the secret. stick with it. we ask your kids to stick with it. we have to set the example. tavis: good teachers are an endangered species. what does that say long term about the performance of students? >> it is terrible. this is the tragedy. you mentioned i love shakespeare. in shakespeare, tragedy is not just something that is bad. it is something that could be put -- could be good. you will hear stories about some terrible kid, but most of the kids i work with are terrific kids. they are poor. maybe the families are broken. so they're not coming coming humbly mom and dad and a nice dinner every night. but these kids are capable. i am teaching, i find all these undiscovered jewels. with the right motivation they are amazed at what they can do. i have to show them the capability. the other thing i have in my classrooms, because i've done this a long time, i have an army of former students who are constantly returning from college and high school.

when the kids see the poverty in a neighborhood and they see these successful kids who come from the countries they come from, from mexico, from korea, the philippines, salvador, and they're doing really well, it motivates them to do better. the former students give them a vision of what is possible. tavis: how does teaching a classroom full of kids were the majority of them are poor, how does that impact your ability to teach them? to get their attention? to keep them focused? as you know, poverty impacts so much. >> the number one factor. they do not talk about it. poverty is huge. when i kids to go home and mom and dad are not home because they are working, they come home to an empty house and go to sleep in the house, there is no way that child can compete against a child from the westside of los angeles whose parents went to stanford. good for them. but that is not an equal playing field. in this book, i try to share ideas any teacher can use to work with those kids who have

not had a great start in life. but it is just a start. we cannot give up on somebody when they're 12 years old 15 years old or 17 years old. we cannot give up. it does not mean we will always win. i am very clear that i fail all the time. for me, the real failure is giving up. we tell our children we must commit to school. that it is an important place. if we give up, what does that say to them? about talk to me expectations. what you expect and what they deliver. >> we are doing shakespeare, algebra in the fifth-grade, higher mathematics. critical thinking. fantastic science experience. baseball is a religion in my classroom. very important part of life, baseball. but basically, it is one lesson all day long. talk about expectations. you cannot flip a switch at 3:00 and say, now is the soccer team, this is when you try our best. i tell my kids, excellence is like pregnancy. you cannot be a little bit pregnant. you either are or you are not.

we take our work seriously in the classroom. we also a fun. we laugh a lot. somewhere over the last 20 years, a level schools you see these kids sitting at attention like the army. it might look good on camera, but those kids are not having a good time. i like having a good time. i have been to class where there is a rule on the law -- what is a rule on the wall, no laughing. in a classroom. are you kidding me? we laugh all day long, usually at me. tavis: there are always points of life -- like in any enterprise. tommy why i should not believe the problems in our public education system -- tell me why i should not believe the problems in our public education system are not intractable? works when you think you have not reached a child, i get letters from kids i have not heard from in 30 years. kids who i thought i did not reach this kid, did not make a difference, they were not listening. they were. there is that moment where the kids eyes light up and he goes,

thank you, i get it now. that is not the way it works. all i'm doing is transmitting valuable information. when those kids come back, you all that music was choreographed and designed by my former students. i cannot do that. phd's in music to come back and teach the kids the instruments i do not know how to play. those are the points of light, the former students. microcosm ofs a the world, i suspect you must teach a little bit of everybody. talk to me about the multicultural, multiracial dynamic that is now present in our education system. >> one of the funniest things, and i started 30 years ago, i am in an area called koreatown. most kids were asian. when kids did well, they said, of course they did well, they are asian. when we had a huge influx of latino children they said, you will have problems now. no, we didn't. kids are kids. i know would like to focus on

the differences. there are some differences. but you know what? kids like to laugh, kids like the joy of learning. when you have a cool sign determine, i do not care where you're from. would you have that moment, whether you are in china or kenya, eyes are going to open up. i focus more on what we have in common than the differences. tavis: i love baseball and basketball as well. when i think of you i think of coach k at duke. he could have gone pro, could have gone a long time ago. but he ain't hurting at duke. they take care of him. he could've made a whole lot more money if you left duke. the keep coming after him. he coaches the olympic team. he could've gone to the pros. you could've left a long time ago and made a lot more money and even impacted a lot more people. why are you still there? for 30ught the kids that years what we do in room 56 matters. if i leave, i am lying. it means it is about me.

i do not even have a desk. there is no picture of me on the front of the book. this is a book for teachers to help them understand that, yes, we are all frustrated, but there are things we can do to impact lives. if we put the students first -- and i know good teachers do -- it is to help make the classroom better. tavis: the only teacher to be honored with the national medal of the arts. rafe esquith teaches at hobart here in los angeles. the book is called "real talk for real teachers." always good to talk to you. like thank you so much. >> honored to have you here anytime. tavis: thanks for watching. as always, keep the faith. ♪ information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: join me next time for a conversation with the claimant -- and acclaimed author. novel remains of list.op of the new york times

we will see you then. ♪ >> there is a saying dr. king had. it is always the right time to do the right thing. i try to live my life every day by doing the right thing. we know we are only about halfway to completely limiting hunger. we have a lot of work to do. walmart committed $2 billion to fighting hunger in the u.s. as we work together, we can stamp hunger out. by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

. >> the university of california confirmed home(i securityr secretary janetlp napolitano. >> the university of cavipját a boeke on for the nation and the cworld. >> protesters citing a poor credentials icd a interrupt the hearing. a hefty penalty and fine both fort( pg&exdñr for the san brun pipeline explosion. two guilty verdicts in the richmond gang rape trialçó brin closure for the brutali] crime that drew national attention. >> we the jury find george