tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley.a conversation with james mcbride. narrative that finds a fresh way of talking about america's racially charged past. "the good lord bird" is enjoying the critical reception that writers can only dream of receiving. ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: imagine a narrative fold with -- filled with irreverent humor. colorful characters both real and imagined. you have a sense of what is in store for you when you read "the good lord bird." 1856 in place in

kansas. whohero is a runaway slave hides his identity pretending to be a girl. it is always good to have you on this program. you have done it once again. just happen to be standing in the room when god coughed. i had a handkerchief. i was inquiring after whether or not you read the new york times review of your book and you said to me -- >> i do not read it because i cannot take it. if you are a creative person, you better not read what people write about you. if it is good, it it will blow your head up. you will start taking cabs. if it is bad, it hurts your feelings, it will discourage you

. my heart cannot take it. >> i empathize with that. getdoes james mcbride better? what is your benchmark for improving your own work if you avoid reading critiques? is a difficult question. i w those when i'm on the air with you. i amalways get those when on the air with you. you know what needs to be done when you are a writer. you do not really need to know whether or not you are doing the right thing. what you have to be wary of, if you are doing the right thing at the right level that will surpass your own life. i am hoping my work. pass -- will surpass my own life.

, thef the great writers great artists, they have tunnel vision and they work beyond the area the time in which they live. i do not feel that good about my work. am -- i do noti think i am not good. climb --whole wall to a high wall to climb. to -- i do not need to hear that i am not in a good. ird know that. -- i already know that. tavis: from the very beginning of the conversation, you set me off in a direction that i want to keep pursuing. everything you say is so loaded, in a beautiful way.

when you talked about the fact deluded -- that you are not as good -- you are wrong about that. it all speaks to that. i appreciate the humility. if you do not think you are that good yet, how do you expect that your work will live beyond you? >> that is my hope. i grew up in the church. i feel that god gave me certain things to do and i am lucky enough to have figured those things out. i do not want to die not having helped someone else with what i know. i could have been a high school english teacher because i haven't -- i have been given so much, i have to give something

back. the fact that people consider my work good, it is nice. --it is not coming from often times, it is not coming from the best place. some of the things i believe are right might not be right. i live in constant self-doubt. that creates a kind of search that you have to have. subwayes you to take the instead of taking a cab. it forces you to be around young people or poor people because they are giving you their story for free. and someone pays you for it. it is cheating. of theirobbing people history and you are presenting it in the way that you want to

present it. if you are going to cheat and you are not writing the bible, it it ain't really so great. let me close the circle that i started. i have often wondered, i thought you were going to say that it is hard to critique the stuff you are doing if they do not know what you are trying to do. board oftenss the times are critiquing people's even donehey have not work that rises to the level of the stuff they're trying to critique. as an you critique print artist if you are not gifted in that way?

they both famously were dogged by critics who did not quite get what they were doing. now they are iconic. give me some sense of what you , particularlycs of african-american novelists, who often times are given the assignment to critique your staff. if they do not have the tools -- >> that is a difficult issue for african-american personalities. not aof all, you are black man. you are a human being in god's eyes. there is a militancy that is assigned to you without you asking for it because you are judged by what you look like.

if you are a white person, you would be one of these cnn guys. that does not work for you because this is the world we live in. i am tavis smiley. blog andics will attack you personally. you are strong enough to take it. read that kind of stuff about myself and not take it for salé. -- and not take it personally. i never review books. i have never felt qualified. what happens with black writers if he says, something wacky, he will get himself on the cover of the new york times and your career

suffers. i am one of the few african- american writers who has worked my way through the system, and it has allowed me to speak in a freeway. most african-american writers do not have that opportunity. it is not that they -- it is not like they do not want it. a few people get through for an. of reasons. -- a myriad of reasons. books, i can play music, i can do a lot of stuff. that there are many people both ahead and behind me who are more talented who do not get the opportunity. when i fail, i keep quiet about it. i go to the next thing. i do not complain. i pick my battles very

judiciously. i assume there is good in the heart of everybody. i will find the next person who will open the gate. you have thatif opportunity because you deal with various subjects that are hot politically. you asked the questions that would get a lot of us fired. tavis: it might work for me one day. i do not know how much longer i have around here. you said two or three things that i am dying to follow-up on. so deliciousw is to me. i want to keep following up on the stuff you say. it is so unfair to "the good lord bird." i will let that go.

i recall many years ago being in gregory.ation with regard king as the greatest american this country has ever produced. i regard king as the greatest american we have ever produced. said, you are wrong about that. not kidding. said -- not king. he said, john brown. he went into this soliloquy about john brown. me -- give us a little

history lesson. white manown was a who decided that slavery was wrong and he conduct did -- he went out to kansas. they were trying to decide -- whethersas slavery should be allowed or not. they attacked the yankees coming from boston and new york. john brown went out there with a wagon load of guns and he got busy. pro-slavers, they became the jesse james and these mythic figures that were made into legends in american history. john brown started running them out. eventually, he came back east

and he attacked america's biggest arsenal. in attempt to take over. he attempted to take it over and he wanted to start a war against slavery. he started the civil war because this attack panic america. panickedthings really america greatly about slavery. that was not turner's rebellion and john brown's takeover. people thought he was crazy because he was a white man. he had 19 others within. -- with him. they took over america's biggest arsenal. him because he was waiting for the black folks to show up.

i was like me waiting for the drummer in my band to show up. there is some issue about that now. blacks that were there than what was written. he had to move a week early. move a week early because he was hiding at a house nearby and the neighbor found out. happened?t ultimately >> he was hanged. the 19 others, most of them are killed. one black guy got away. three other whites got away. some of the blacks -- he made a last stand.

several other blacks climbed out the windows and got away. hung, there was six weeks before when he was captured and when he was hung. more againstd american slavery than he ever did with pistols. he wrote letters to editors and he became a national hero. he knew he was going to die. he became almost a mythic figure. what makes all of that juicy enough for you to want to turn into a novel? >> i want people -- when i was a kid, i thought jesse james was the coolest cat in the world. , i realized het

was a slave owner and he shot an 11-year-old robbing a bank. i would like young people to know what kind of man john brown was. if you understand what he was, you would feel a lot prouder to be an american. i wanted to put it in a form that people would accept. >> the book has a lot more humor. we circle back to the beginning conversation. how far do you take it? how far do you take that kind of narrative? what liberties do you take with the storyline?

what liberties do you take putting humor in it? >> that is a difficult question. i dance probably a little bit too far when i wrote the frederick douglass chapters. tavis: we will get to frederick douglass. "jango"glad that brought the issue of slavery up. the fact that it is filled with he would be dead three minutes past breakfast. -- it was a white man who attacked this arsenal and they tore him up.

when they got a hold of dangerfield newby, they cut part of his body off and they let the pigs eat him. the movie was funny and it was good, but it is not like my book. my book is a book of character. john brown was very religious. when i got to the frederick onion, the guy who's telling the story, he had to be a girl to survive, he ends up in frederick douglass's house. frederick called him into his

office and says, have a drink. douglas, he wants a little taste. frederick douglass had a black wife and a white mistress. >> that is hard now. i had a lot of fun with that. i admire frederick douglass. i am one who steers clear of politics, but i understand what he was all about. i've have been to his home town and i studied his life. board.re is across the even though he was a great man, i have fun with him as well. pushback?you expect

>> i have artie gotten some. -- i have already gotten some. slavery is a raw subject. we have to find a way to talk about these subjects. i would rather people be angry that i wrote something funny about frederick douglass the not know who he is at all. not see them as a guy with funny hair because i do not think people understand how clever african-americans had to be to survive earing slavery. b deering slavery. if people knew how sick the whole business was -- had to be gearing slavery. during slavery. tavis: let me go back to the

narrator of the story, onion. know a guy named onion. he stole my bike. he was not a bad guy. i still know his brother. bike: he did not return my ? >> i love those kind of wacky -- i love the way the old southern's talk. york, but allnew of my relatives were from the south. i love that old black voice. i wanted to be in that voice. for him to play as a girl. i have to figure out some way of identity to power that

character. character powers plot. his search for identity had to be a little stronger than just a black boy who was going for freedom. as johno be something, brown was going down, this character was going up. pretend to be a a lot of times people did not know what it meant, but it was his desire to become a man. i have had enough. that is what made him. let's talk about historians. what youour take on think on historians, given that you had to do some research.

we now believe this family now believe that. now believe this and we now believe that. the younger historians and african-american timerians have a difficult unearthing this information and passing it to people because people do not read books as much. they have fewer avenues in which these -- and which the true history can get out. a lot of the history is off. it is written with the same prejudice that certain networks have one they report the news of the day. i read history books. i read nothing but history books. they have so much to give.

i wish i had majored in history in college. tavis: the new book from james mcbride is called "the good lord bird." be top of the list. i enjoyed talking to you. that is our show for tonight. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next timefor a conversation with james cromwell . ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

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