tavis: good evening, tonight, to conversations with pioneering music rips. we will begin with michael right and i'll rent, better known as m and master g, members of the sugar hill gang who opened the door for the mainstream success of rap music today. and we will talk with twin butters -- twin brothers walter and wallace scott known as walter and scotty of the whispers. coming up right now.

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: it is a lesson that too many musicians have learned the hard way through the years. one-sided contracts can render accomplishments completely moot. the sugar hill gang found that out. they no longer have the legal

right to call themselves by the name they invented. .hey were in high school their first hit was "rappers delight" and opened the door for mainstream success for rap that we know today. included big bank -- did bad bank. let's take a look at a clip from this film. we were talking about how the managers spent their money. is 1979. the 7998 corvettes thing right. the 77.the for he was he didn't like the corvette. he got rid of it. his mother bought him an soc is a graduation. so all the money is being spent by them but the artist didn't

have anything. >> i got evicted from my apartment. my car was repossessed. i was in dire straits. i was living -- i was sleeping on this ladies catch. i was living from hand to mouth, hustling up gigs here and there, pc money together. g, why is this a story that is told over and over and over again? it is like there are so many groups that this has happened to and yet it seems like, for some many of these people, the lesson is never learned. >> because it is so engaging. all of this glamour is thrown at you, you're going to be a star and let's take you to dinner. all of the stuff is happening at one time and it is smoke and mirrors. and it is all the time to keep you from thinking about the business aspect of it. mike says it all the time. it is called the music business. a lot of times, you don't get

the business aspect first. it is all about the show. tavis: being in high school as you were, how is someone supposed to get all that? >> you don't. i was 17. i was excited about the opportunity. i thought it would be a regional situation. i thought it would be from boston to florida, because of popular, get a date or two out of it. [laughter] i was a kid. so i was looking into the business side of that and they took vantage of that fact. amis: wonder mike, i interested to know what your senses, given all the folks this happened to prior to sugar held caring -- to sugar hill gang, why it happened to the sugar hill gang? each artist has a certain disposition and you are looking for a little love. that is why comedians do what they do and why actors do what

they do. we are artists. we like the applause on the shine and all this. but it is not enough. the book who are artists, they want their music, their art, their acting craft to get out. once it is appreciated, that unfortunately enough. but you have to take care of your business, surround yourself with good counsel and that didn't happen. tavis: i wonder, has you look at kona, whether or not there were something -- not what you could have done different, that is obvious, but the question is whether or not, at that time, you even knew better to have made it for decisions. -- ie go back in my mind go back in my mind. i have been going back in my mind about that situation. i think that the one thing i could have done was be a little bit more patient and i was so

anxious. we had already recorded. it was time -- who were saying the track is at and we got ago and we need to sign a contract. i was so anxious. i should have been more patient and allowed things to happen from the backend of it, from the behind-the-scenes. "rappers delight" was a hit and we got all this love from all over the world, i kind of expected it. ever since i saw "hard days kid, that'si was a what i wanted to do for living. ,uccess, my brother said success doesn't really mean you made it. and i always say shine is not always the end of the world. you shine and be taken advantage of. you have to take care of your business.

tavis: in what ways were you taken advantage of. give me some sense of the worst nightmare. >> merchandising. they were using our likeness at the concerts and we weren't being compensated. explained, we weren't the depth of publishing until later on our careers. it's to the point now where we were watching and i watched from afar because i stepped away from the group in 1985. but they performed all of the that theyually saying were trying to erase my legacy from the world, the guy who treated the master g situation, the individual who it went out later on in saying that he is not master g. i am master g. he was in interviews talking this way. >> that is the most and sees part of it all. you can take royalties, put up less choice and greeting cards and balloons such as our case and not be compensated. you hear your music and movies.

and commitut identity fraud, saying that someone else's master g, somebody else's me, wonder mike, who in the world does that? that is beyond ridiculous. tavis: what do you make about the impact it had on the genre? every song has been sampled and sample then sampled and sampled. >> i still never get used to it because we both have our heroes music wise. and to be put in a position to where people always come after the show or even in the street, you know, i first bought that record so-and-so and it means so much to me. it's all good because, at home, ,way from the scene, i am dad the brother, the son, the boyfriend. and when i step outside that door in this room and this

arena, it is wonder mike. and i never get tired of the shine. i never did tired of the genuine love of our fan base. that is why we would never disrespect our fans like somebody else saying they are us t. >> i am really a private person. it's crazy that, as private as i am, i am so exposed as an individual. to have people treat us like that, sometimes, it is almost unnatural for a minute. tavis: what do you make of the rap game today? could sugar hill gang get off the ground today in this hip-hop -- >> it would be tough. when we started, there was nothing. we were the first rap stars. and now there is a lot of competition. there is a lot of stuff that you have to navigate now. it would be tough. we could still do it. i have faith in my can i have faith in myself. tavis: did you do it in this

environment in a lyrical standpoint? >> if it was the same set of, age wise, demographics for the fan base, yes, we could do it. >> i feel where you are coming from. the reason why, together, as a writing team, we are phenomenal. 95% of those songs, we wrote most of those songs together. and those songs are a reflection of who we were and what was going on at the time. so to bring it now and us living in the times, i believe we can still do it. >> in today's lyrical climate, i think we could still survive. we would never come from a misogynistic point of view. we would never advocate gun violence. tavis: there go your sales. [laughter] >> before always want to have a good time. >> if it sounds good and it feels good, they are going to do it. >> this new music, we are partying still, but there's more to life than popping bottles.

the social relevance, we have to express what is going on in the world today because this is a crazy world. >> i think we would segue. we sounded good and we know how to write songs and we know how to put it out there. >> he is very shy. [laughter] tavis:. businessman. >> yeah. tavis: you been successful as a businessman. into marketing door-to-door sales. it was my saving grace. it helped me go through the process of whatever happened going as a kid. it was a foundation to help me do what i am doing now. i learned about business. i learned about management. i learned these things. i was able to go through my life. tavis: even though you are now the artist formally known as back in the day. you guys are formally the sugar hill gang. do you still get on the mic? >> do we perform?

absolutely. >> people say -- do you get tired of performing? no. throw your hands in the air. that is what we groove on. you see it in the dock, it is little clubs in the basement in front of 30,000 people in barcelona outside in a concert. he is on the drums and i am on base. our band is on keyboards and, man, please. tavis: i could do this for hours. how does it feel all these years later when you are on stage and you hit "rappers delight" and everybody in the audience knows every word? >> it is phenomenal. >> we could turn the mic down and just watch. and they will sing the song. tavis: and they will correct you. >> yeah. [laughter]

tavis: you messed up that line. [laughter] i am glad to have you guys on. glad to have you here. they are always the sugar hill gang to me. [laughter] i don't want to taunt nobody. the documentary is called "i want my name back in it is everywhere. glad to have you on. >> we will make sure you come. tavis: celebrating 50 years where music is no small feat delivered ice cream corners and watts, honed to perfection by twin brothers walter and wallace scott, although don't know but it call him wallace if you are a whispers fan. it is walter and scotty.

they are the founding members of the same -- of the acclaimed group the whispers. they started playing back in 1963. inducted into the vocal group hall of fame in 2011 and recipients of the rhythm and blues foundation pioneers award. the whispers still tour and record. let's look at them performing their hit "rock steady." >> ♪ and we began to rock steady ♪ ♪ rocking all night long ♪ and we begin to rock steady ♪ rocking to the break of dawn ♪ we rock number rock steady ♪ steady rocking all night long ♪ ♪ all night long ♪ rocksteady ♪ rocking to the break of don ♪ rocking to the break of dawn

tavis: when they went up walter and wallace on the screen, i said who is wallace scott? [laughter] does anybody call you wallace? >> no, sir. where i can only imagine you played years ago. does it seem like 50 years? >> it doesn't, tavis. the only thing i am amazed is summit henk back, if said 50 years ago that you would be singing 50 years later, i said 50 if someone years ago that you would be singing 50 years later, i would have laughed at them. and here it is. and it seems like yesterday. we've been singing a long, long time. tavis: what do you think about the humble beginnings singing on street corners and watts? >> one i look back on a, it was

the fun part. there was no pressure. we were just dreaming. we would get on the street corner and the mop was the mic. [laughter] and it was fun. we wanted to. we thought we might could do something. but it would draw the girls. we got the attention from the young ladies. he would come out and listen to the harmonies. but if anybody told us that we would have ended up with a record deal, we would have thought there was something wrong with them. tavis: how did r&b and up as your lane. as all the -- of all the things you could have done, why r&b? question when we moved to los my fatherom nevada, worked in hawthorne, nevada for the navy and scotty and i had never heard too much black music. bands like the high lows and the four freshmen. tavis: he went way back.

>> that is what we heard in hawthorne, nevada. so we arrive here in the ninth grade and we are bombarded with motown. we are hearing the temptations come all of these different people. so we did what everybody did. we formed a young vocal group and started singing rhythm and blues. but what we brought to rhythm and blues was a hi low/four freshmen kind of friend have that kind of mentality. barbershop harmony. that is what we sang. tavis: did anybody else in your family sang? >> my mother sang. my mother was a singer. but just like scotty, she was shy. she didn't like to get in front of the microphone. what she had a great singing voice. tavis: how did you get scotty out of his shyness? >> it took scotty to come down with an illness and it happened just in time. i had just gotten back from vietnam. scotty got sick. they removed one of his ribs.

lo and behold, i am thrust without him to do what he used to do and i wasn't that good at that because i had been to vietnam. but you had to swim or drown. and i ended up making it. so when i got back, scottie was a new guy. he was afraid anymore. the microphone didn't scare him. he saw what i did while he was away and, for some reason, when he got back, he was a bona fide lead singer. tavis: true story, scottie? >> true story. i had the voice. but i didn't want people looking at me. i wanted to look at the girls. i didn't want nobody looking at me. [laughter] tavis: it don't work that way. >> i could hit all the notes. i had the chops. sawr on, came to where we groups like the o'jays performing and we realized it was adjusted about singing -- it wasn't just about singing. you had to perform. tavis: stage presence is so

important. now you have folks who have pirated x and electronics and all this and that, for that distracting you, they don't have a stage resins and you have always had that. we came from a generation when we first saw groups like the o'jays and the temptations and they had the micah that spread in all of them sing on one, the whispers used to sing as if we were a little choir. we all form one little spot and we would swing beautiful but have no show your once we saw those groups, we realize come if we are going to try to make it, you better get you a show. that is when we started concentrating on having a show. >> when we first saw the urges, there were five of them and they should have been called the five stallions because that is the way they impressed us. they could saying that they were performing then, way back then. they made us understand.

even nick said, this is nice, harmony and stuff, but this is boring [laughter] . like you said, excitement, do something. [laughter] other than just stand there and sing. after two years of looking at the temps and the o'jays -- i keep seeing -- i keep saying the o'jays because they blew everybody out of the water, including the temps. tavis: the mighty mighty o'jays. >> after watching them, hey, wait a minute, that is what timing really is. are the first person especially from your era who, at the height of your success i'm i had to stop and go served. the most famous person is probably all of us who had to stop and go served. how did you process going to be a non-, being gone for a couple of years and coming back to entertainment? >> it was very traumatic. first of all, we had never -- i

had never been away from my brother. i didn't know how to act knowing that i was went to see him. so for two years, i left. did my basic training and went to vietnam for 14 months. it was a lifetime experience. i learned things about human beings. this was in the 1960s. what i tell the guys all the time that we were fighting two wars. we were fighting the viet and we were fighting among ourselves. the prejudice that i found that exists is was in vietnam between gis who never thought black people took showers. here we come, people, guys from detroit, chicago mixed in with guys from west virginia and they had a friend views of each other. that blew me away. i came back and i told the whispers. this was the most exciting thing . i never knew this existed. it brought a bunch of people together that did not know about

each other. but we were try to fight an enemy called the viet cong. the most incredible thing i have ever experienced in my life. tavis: speak to me about romance. scotty is quite kind and generous when he gives the o'jays a lot of love and they deserve it, but the lane that you are on, the whispers on the lane of romance. these days, nobody is trying to run it. [laughter] it is more than you want to know. it leaves nothing to the imagination. how did you just own this romance lane? >> let me tell you who we had to credit that with. nicholas caldwell. he wrote "lady," the first song. when we first started, we talked about the importance of complementing our ladies, our mothers, sisters -- that meant a lot to the whispers. so nick wrote with that in mind.

and when you hear songs like way yes," "are you going my ," these were all the songs really dealing with romance. i hate to say it, unlike today, we deal in romance. we deal in love and we feel in the importance of relationships that last over 20 years. nick was doing that when we first started. so i think that is how we cornered the market on romanticism with the ladies. it means of so much and we have been singing it the whole time we have been together. tavis: time goes so quickly. it has been five decades now and you are still killing it. how much longer are you going to do this, guys? >> will i said last week i was going to quit. [laughter] tavis: how many times have you said that? >> they say, yeah, right to like

you said earlier, if anybody told us that we would be here this long, we suddenly -- we simply wouldn't have believed it. we have got to thank and we have our fans. as long as they do that, we will be here, we and on and on. >> this is really important. we go out every year. you kind of know when it is not there anymore it has the fields that we are in, we see vocal groups where it does happen like that. it is up to you to be honest with yourself to know when it's time to call it. fortunately, god has blessed us to where we can still do a very effective show. you have gone to shows when you i love them, but it is not quite there no more. it is up to the groups themselves to understand when they are there. i think that when we are at that point, we will be honest enough to admit to that we had a great career.

tavis: you have a long way to go. if you don't figure that out, we fans will tell you. you will know. [laughter] you all have a long way to go. i am always honored to be in your company, anytime anywhere to and restorations on 50 years. you're welcome back here anytime. >> thank you, man. tavis: walter and wallace, as their mama called them, the scott brothers, the founders of the whispers. that is our show for tonight. thank you for watching. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: join me next time for a conversation with the wonderful angela lans bury, at 88, has received a long overdue honorary

oscar. that is next time. we will see you then. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more.

next on "kqed newsroom," low-wage workers barely making ends meet. they protest toñi raisexd9wxjf minimum wage. >> thanksgiving ñidinner, christmas dinner, that's at( fantasy still for me. i can't afford any offá it. >> the movement is picking up steam here in the bay area and across the country. plus, stanford university design students tackle toughñi mez the developing world with an eye on affordability. >> you see the assignment? you're going to build a freátanding structure to you're going to build a bmns@?ñ and nelson mandela, his legacy and the imp