tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight, a conversation with a. scott berg. it was his time when it came to segregation and racism. a conversation with new york times best-selling author a. scott berg coming up right now.

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: this year is the 100th anniversary of president would will rowson, a so programmed -- woodrow wilson, a self- proclaimed progressive. he went home as a southerner of a certain generation and pursued segregation through information -- infamous jim crow laws. the pulitzer prize winning

writer has taken on the task of unraveling this contradictory man. mr. berg, led to have you on this program. ladd to have you here. to have you here. wilson is a racist, wilson is a sexist. tell me why he deserves this. i don't think he is a sexist. i think he is a racist. at the end of the day, he still stands as the most influential figure of that century. i think he brought about more change than any other person. most of it for the good. if you are an african american, it wasn't. tell me why you acknowledge or accept the racist moniker and push back the sexist moniker. >> he really did fight for women getting the vote.

he wasn't for a constitutional amendment at first. -- talkple stock about about states rights, in the civil rights movement, it is usually code. but once we got to world war i, he became the most outspoken proponent for women having the right to vote and the 19th amendment. tell me the worst of his racism. me, it is indicative. in 1919 when all the soldiers were coming back from world war i and tens of thousands of african-americans fought in that war, they came back thinking i have shed blood. i am a brother and i lost brothers in this war.

this is our time to be assimilated into american society. a goodd have been teachable moment even for a southerner like would will -- woodrow wilson to tell his southerners that this is the time we have to start embracing the african-american in this country. and he said nothing. i don't think it is a coincidence that the summer of 1919 was the bloodiest summer in the civil rights history. iots across the country, think it was a reaction. they weren't embraced. what is it about the back story of woodrow wilson that made him that way and allowed him to take these kinds of positions contrary to the best interest of black people? thought he was doing something for the african-

american. he really did. this is not a guy that hated african-americans. he always had the door open, in fact. all the great leaders came to see woodrow wilson. james johnson was just an incredible writer and came and saw wilson. i really got to get over my prejudices because he is not as bad as ihought he was. if he is advancing jim crow, how is he processing is helping? that he grews was up in the south, was born in virginia, raised during the civil war. raised in segregated society. he saw the first bits of integration when he became president. there was integration just darting in the postal service and the treasury department. and there was friction there. wilson's feeling was i don't

think this country is ready and the south is ready. i think it will be safer for everybody if we have separate but equal, which was the law of the land in those days. he thought a couple of things. he would make life safer and more peaceful for whites and for blacks if they didn't have to rub shoulders. wilson is getting attacked by both sides. whites were saying, why are you still appointing judges? why are you getting middle- management positions? you realize a black woman -- a white woman will be working on over a black man? that is unacceptable. deep down, he felt the southerners were not ready to accept it. to be really political about it,

he had a very progressive agenda he wanted to pass. if he began integrating, he would never get anything past the southerners which were a good third of it. i just interviewed an author who has written a book about racism in the ivy league back in the day. wilson was obviously president of princeton. damning stuff in this text about letters he wrote and comments he made about persons that wanted to be students and others while he was president of princeton. what he was basically saying is you are not going to be happy here. , thereust make it easier is no way you're going to get

through a day. why don't you go through a place that will be more comfortable. later.ds awful 100 years and it is. in his day, it was considered really smart. he was really a centrist in his day. --is: how do you juxtapose let me preface this by saying one of the problems i have is that in washington and beyond, we are too easily impressed with braininess. and the head is not connected to the heart. the intellect is not usable because it is not connected to the heart that revels in the humanity of other people. how is it that wilson can be as bright as he was? politically, you explain his

point of view. i am trying to get the disconnect between his head and his heart. >> i don't know that it always did connect. convincedthat he himself that he was doing the best thing. all, presidents want as little friction and noise as possible in the world. this is a way to keep the noise down. that is why i pointed to the summer of 1919 when all the big black soldiers were coming home. he could have stopped what really became riots for months. every city broke out. up, it wouldepped have made a difference. kept saying over and over, i know the south and they won't accept it. the proof is, it took 50 years.

the 50'sit happened in and 60's, we still had the riots that we talked about. i think we inevitably had to go through that process whether it would be 1913 or 1950s and 60s. >> dr. king said that there is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. so that the sum of the man is -- we have talked about the night side of woodrow wilson. what is the enduring legacy? >> he wasn't a hater. he really wasn't. again, certainly 100 years later, it looks terribly wrong. it was ironic that he was so regressive because he was so

regressive and almost everything else. it includes the modern income tax which he thought was more fair for middle and lower class people. the federal reserve system he thought took away the power from five or six bankers. he put the first jew on the supreme court and began shattering these glass ceilings. foras opening a few doors americans. internationally, he was a real idealist. and he could bring about a greater peace, he thought, through a league of nations. he was really the first one to say that there should be an international parliament. didn't buy his league of nations. a place where they could sit and discuss problems. it as how important was

a precursor to the united nations? cracks i think it is everything. let's try something else now, let's do another version of it called the united nations. tavis: i wonder if you could wilson'snd contrast internationalism with the internationalism of today. let me ask another way. he is clearly interested in spreading democracy. certainly for the balance of my lifetime, they want to spread democracy around the world. arrogant. that can be

what wilson was trying to do then. the concept here and now is wilsonian. you are talking about head and heart. here, wilson really connected those dots. he was really the first president to introduce that moral component. he was the most religious president we ever had. bethought there should morality to american foreign- policy. he thought we just can't sit and watch these tyrannical nations. sometimes, that is very good. when president obama was talking about doing something about syria. can we watch a dictator gassed his own people?

we are the cops of the world, we will fix whatever we want to fix. it is a delicate balance. >> give me more insight on wilson's views about whether or not the u.s. of a is the world's policeman? that debate continues to rage today about the role we should or should not play regarding these kinds of issues. >> there should be collective security, not just the united states. it took years to get us into the war.

they were not responding to his diplomatic efforts. wet has been twisted is that should just march and whenever we feel like doing something. wilsonian is having a dialogue with the rest of the world. coming up with other nations and doing something about it. tavis: i think you acknowledged tendshere is a few that to be held when one thinks of woodrow wilson. what, up until this point, do you think has most driven the way that we read the narrative?

about wilson? the reason he has fallen a few pay on the grade history lists is the racial issue. we are now coming to talk about how suppressive he was during world war i. he really invoked a lot of the we alien sedition laws once were at war. he did not want to hear any talk that was against where the government was doing. -- what the government was doing. tavis: what would be politically the low point of his presidency? the low point, actually, it was a moment where you run the high point. to get the nation behind is league of nations, he had a collapse and a stroke.

he was rushed back to the white house where, for a year and a half, nobody knew that the president of the united states had suffered a stroke. it was amazing to get away with a half. year and his attorney general was trying to get rid of alien and seditious thought. this is the low point of his administration. it was the low point of his administration. stepping up in that one moment.

tavis: there are two or three presidents that have come to at the suggestion of his administration. lincoln. abraham are there parallels to be drawn? that you see between barack obama and woodrow wilson? >> i don't think there has been another president is close to woodrow wilson as barack obama. they are both constitutional scholars and teachers. both a little aloof. they both love golf. detached men.e

i think our current president could take a few pages out of this playbook. would go down the congress, sometimes five days a week, and sit in an office that exists in congress called the president's room. no president has really used it since woodrow wilson. , let'sd go in there start discussing these laws. he would get stuff done and have a dialogue going all the time. i feel president obama doesn't have that sustained dialogue. he sort of has to lurch from crisis to crisis. and each month, what is it this month? he often does. successful when he keeps the talk going with people. parallels about

giving free speeches, how was he relating to people? he was the greatest orator of his day. professor, thee only one with a phd. our current president has written some books, too. wilson never spoke down to the american people and wrote every one of his speeches. to do that.ast one the others edit but he literally wrote it. >> he took shorthand or did it at a typewriter. he did it himself. it was a real powerful tool for him. by not speaking down and using

,is professorial vocabulary they felt better because he understood woodrow wilson. tavis: it is not as if presidential speechwriters put words into the mouth of the president. every president edits what he wants to say. you can see them on stage crossing stuff out all the time. he is walking to the podium. he is known for editing stuff all the time. but more about how that uniquely situated wilson. imagine that a president today would have the time or the interest to sit and write everything he says. he only wrote speeches when

they were important. we have to declare war. hundredsign speeches, of campaign speeches, he did off-the-cuff. he would walk out with a card and it would have five bullet points on it and he would go for an hour without a grammatical that dida paragraph not follow the last one. though clinton does that, too. tavis: we sought at the democratic convention. democratic the convention. [laughter] >> two terms. woodrow wilson got to terms and so did barack obama. tavis: with the challenges we have talked about, how did he manage to terms? how did he get that opportunity to do it twice?

>> he lucked out because he ran against two republicans. andas running against taft his predecessor teddy roosevelt who started the bull moose party. it helped wilson slide in the first time. the second time, it was one of the great collections of all times and it took weeks before final results were in. they were waiting for a few thousand ballots from california that made the difference. the end, a few thousand women votes. women had the vote in california but not in many other states .hat turned the tide for wilson wilson introduced so many

progressive things, people wanted to put the brakes on. that is why presidents don't get to terms. they do too much, not always too little. a lot of people are concerned about the notion that we might not, for the for sea level future, see that kind of progressive president that we to see before the country needs it. >> i think he would fit in. tavis: could he sell to the american people? >> i think so. he had eloquent and integrity. we are not put into this world to sit still. we are put into this world to act. every now and then, we get some of these people that come along.

wilson was one of them. i say now at the end of the century, whether you like him or not, you have to know about him. tavis: the new book from the pulitzer prize-winning author is called "wilson." of the inanniversary agar ration of woodrow wilson. it is good to have you on the -- inauguration of woodrow wilson. it is good to have you on the program. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with the wonderful angela lans bury an honoraryived

oscar. we will see you then. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pbs.

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