tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. with the super bowl being played abouteekend, we talk "breaking the line: the season in black college football that transformed the sport and changed the course of civil rights." harris -- shack harris. we are glad you joined us. that is coming up right now. ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: in 1967 this country was in the midst of the midst of a major civil rights of people. protest against the war in vietnam and in college football. two teams, two coaches, and two quarterbacks were making history. this tory of our country at a crossroads was brought to life

by samuel -- this story of our country at the crossroads was brought to life by sam friedman in his book, "breaking the line: the season in black college football that transformed the sport and changed the course of civil rights." he is joined by james "shack" harris who went on to be in various halls of fame. that's a lot to say, that this season in black college football not only transformed the sport -- it changed the course of civil rights. for those who think that might be hyperbolic, let's take it one at a time. how did what happened transform the sport? >> look at the nfl. this season you have had as many as eight or nine african- american quarterbacks starting in a given week. these african-american head coaches. ,ou had african-american gm's

ozzie newsome of the defending super bowl champs -- none of that would have existed without the pages that came out of black college football in 1967 in particular. also the fact that schools that hadn't desegregated their teams until the late 1960 possible or early 1970 path -- now they are african-american. there are other changes. that's just on the field. what: before we get to happened on the field, how did what happened that year changed the course of civil rights? >> that's a fair question to ask. the thing you have to remember is football, particularly in the south, was one of the strongest of the stronghold for the jim crow era and segregation.

four years after big colleges, state universities in a place like alabama, mississippi, louisiana, georgia, texas, south carolina -- you name it. after they be grudgingly had to admit black students under federal law, they deliberately kept their football teams always for many more years. they did that because football had such a huge cultural importance in the south, almost a religious following, that the idea was if we can still win on the field we can go to bowl games with all-white teams and white coaches, and white supremacy is still the custom of this country. to be able to push back against this would-be excellence of football teams and football coaches and ultimately with one of the events i write about in the book -- the creation of the first interracial football game in the south. those changes matter way beyond

football. this is about changing a whole culture of segregation that permeated the south. football was just one particularly strong part of it. are two major things that happen. the book talks about two major events. one has to do with james as an performer. the other has to do with a game -- took place. let's start with the game. >> the first interracial college football game in the south. 1960 nine florida a&m versus the university of tampa. a lot of people think the breakthrough game in the south 1970.abama usc in that was a year later. this was the first one, and it have been the largest act of mass of desegregation in the south. 45,000 people racially mixed are going to that game. it was a game that florida a&m one. -- won.

people believed a black school could possibly beat a white school. by not allowing such a game to happen, the powers that be in the south made sure those presumptions never got challenged, so when this game occurred by virtue of years of effort and lobbying by the head coach of florida a&m, it was a gigantic blow across the battle of segregation. tavis: the other involves the person sitting next you as an individual performer. tell me what happened with james. >> james should speak for himself. i will just say this. he became the first african- american to regularly start in the nfl. yhis game -- this was so hugel important because the reasons you couldn't have a black quarterback were just about sports. they were about the capacity of

african-americans. the belief was that they were inferior. the idea was that blacks take orders. they don't give orders and certainly not to whites, so you black person be the signal caller. it was ok for a black to be a natural athlete, which is a coded way to say animalistic, but to have strength of character, calm under pressure, wisdom and leadership, that could it be permitted to happen, so for james harris to come into the pros and stick at that position and excel at that position was to take on all these attitudes that had to do not only with a black being quarterback with a black american being a leader in the academic world or politics or in media. tavis: the reason i wanted to get your take on that first, i didn't want james to have to stick is just out too much explaining who he is, now that

that was laid out for you, you on displayr modesty in the conversation. all jokes aside -- this almost did and happen in part because -- did not happen in part because you are pretty firm with all the pressure applied to not switch to your position. that black men had not been quarterbacks because it was a cerebral position was so strong that you came under a lot of pressure to change your position, and that might have but you higher up in the draft. tell me more. say i amof all, let me glad to say there are two outstanding young persons, and to maintain the tradition and great contributions of many people made, and i think this book keeps it alive.

grey and robinson are two of the best coaches that ever lived. , i hads of the position a promise and a dream. the promise was i would get a degree from college, and the dream was to play in the nfl, but at the time the only opportunity to play would be to switch positions, and going into the draft, they asked me to thought, myi just best opportunity was to play quarterback. i decided to not play. they asked me to switch. i kept my word first, and then they kept their word. i wasn't drafted so i felt i wouldn't get the opportunity to play. going home i decided i wouldn't play pro football. tavis: what happened next? obviously you did. you kept your word, and they kept your word. once you decided you weren't going to play pro football

something happen. >> code robinson who worked with me summoned me. i have left -- summoned me to grambling. he explained what was at stake. the opportunity to play may be limited for those coming behind me, and knowing how bad he wanted me to play, i decided to change my mind, but he told me some things that were very helpful and very special. one that if i had signed to play pro foot tall, don't come back and say the reason you didn't is because you pledge. you know you're going to have to because your opportunities are going to be very limited. tavis: how did you end up in the nfl?

after that conversation what happens where you actually end up playing in the nfl? before dickie had been drafted in the first round. both of those guys were no longer playing quarterback. that was an example for me that america just wasn't ready for a quarterback. buffalo, being eighth on the list, i took the ride to buffalo and decided when i get there to give him my best. tavis: and you did. >> and i did. the satisfying thing was my mother wanted me to get a college degree. i was going to become a and she asked me to do my best, and the lord would do the rest. tavis: it's one thing to find your way of eventually with the

urging of eddie robinson -- we will come back to andy. a great coach obviously. it is one thing to end up in the nfl. how did you end up as a starter in the nfl? >> i was very fortunate. so many players came before me that were great layers. it is the fact that i got an opportunity. the head coach like my ability. i had an opportunity to play in preseason games. each game came down to if you play well you stay. if you don't you get cut. we went through that daily. i tried to play my best football during that time. i tried to survive each week. doing those preseason games, at the end they decided my playing earned me an opportunity to start in the nfl, and i am very proud of that. given what has,

happened -- even as we sit in this conversation, there are two players who come to mind. a black quarterback for the new york jets, another for the both whon redskins, are taking on the champ right now, and the advice from eddie robinson, don't come back and say you didn't make it because you were a black quarterback. you knew what you were up against. i wonder if race is still a factor and if you can play because they love money more than anything else. is black and white still a factor, or is it about the green? >> they had nine blacks to play, and that is the most they have had. i think it proves we have more of a chance to play, and they are becoming more talented. in college more blacks get an opportunity to play.

it enhances the opportunity to play in the nfl. the more each year you continue to get questions about blacks, as long as you are getting questions, you may not be quite there yet. tavis: your thoughts about that? >> i agree. first, there is a difference between the franchise and the owners, because you have to do what ever wins because you are going to fill the seats. about the fanr culture. it is not what it was at the time james harris was getting some of the hate mail and death threats he got as a young i am a but i suspect -- giant fan. he getssly doubt when nasty mail it is racialized. i do not think they are writing and saying, you dumb cracker.

you redneck. using those racially charged terms, but if you went across town to the jets with rg three and went into their mail, i bet you would find a fair amount of racially motivated hate in their. that is still working somewhere under the surface, even though the situation has improved from when shack came into the league. we are not totally passed this point of describing blacks as national athletes. i have experienced watching one of the sports cable shows the morning after the sunday games and the commentator was asked what makes russell wilson so good. the commentator, who himself had been an nfl is aerback, says he natural athlete. i thought, this is crazy. he is probably five foot nine and 180. you couldn't be a good enough

athlete to be a star quarterback with those physical limits in a big man's game, so it is not the national -- natural athlete that makes wilson excelled this year. it's the brains. it's the leadership. that wasn't what they talked about. we still here with white quarterbacks about the work ethic and the study and leadership, and with black quarterbacks, although it is improving, it still tends to be described in terms of his ago capabilities. tavis: one of the things that disturbs me -- i will start with you. chime in on this. one of the things that disturbs me beyond the performance on the there still isn't the respect given to the intellect and the capability of african-americans be on the field -- beyond the field. i am talking about the office and the sideline. ofan give you a long list

cultures who do not get the benefit of the a recycled to another team. if you don't make it happen when you make the shot there is a good chance you won't get called the next season, whereas the white coaches tend to move around from division to division, so there's still is and the opportunity to try again because it didn't work in one -- isn't the opportunity to try again because it didn't work in one program. >> when you look at smith not getting rehired. we are getting a good example talking about the raiders. there is an assistant coach on the bangles who is getting just one year in oakland. as soon as davis passed away, he is gone. coaches if they are white get left -- get let go after eight and eight. you are right. there is a sense of you get one shot. if you are able to stick and beenit work -- marvin has

a good example. he has been 11 seasons with the bangles. that is a rare case of an ownership that has really stuck by its man. >> i thought they were supposed to fix this stuff. >> i think it served us well. given a lot of guys the opportunity to coach. i think it is something we still have some work to do in terms of getting more blacks opportunities. i think we still need to identify that the guys capable of doing that and making sure we make the owners aware of who , making mention during games, keeping those guys in front of the ownership. >> i would add we need the rule for the ncaa.

this year wasn't great for the nfl. overall the nfl is a paragon. the schools in the bcs, 45% of their football players are african-american. nine percent of the head coaches are african-american. if you look at smith, tony dunn g, mark tomlin, what they have accomplished, they cannot say the coaching talent isn't there. , even after football be segregated, they never got head offers from majority white schools in spite of having some of the greatest coaching minds in football. not only were they not rewarded on the basis of their talent, they need to prove to the white world. they were in a world that was valid unto itself.

you think that a school that wanted to build up its program would look at that. generations later, and at the college level where there is no formal commitment to diversity, you see the black are notand their legacy getting those opportunities either. is it still the case that in the south bay view these through a racial prism? why is that the case? do they look at this through that prism? >> i am going to refer to shack on this because i am a northerner and he is a southerner. what i will say is the power of boosters and alumni is very in college as it is a

factor proteins don't have to deal with. pro football contributes to a . thete more for the merit evidence is the evidence in terms of what the hiring rates have been. this ninek at where percent of african-american head coaches are, i would say the south. tavis: it is one thing to have had these decisions made or not made back in the day because of race, but is that still the fact in college football? >> i think the numbers speak for themselves. 100 division i universities. i am not sure. it may be around 11 or 12.

suspected this is an old conversation, but what agency do players have to influence this. it is the players being recruited. they are note going to play unless something happens, things might change. when you are an 18-year-old kid, to make telling you some money. i am just trying to figure out what role student athletes have in this conversation if any. >> that's a tough question. universities, the tv, the exposure they have. i guess asking kids to say no to that is a challenge. have isthe role they

for assistant coaches when you have the opportunity. when you have an outstanding coordinator to let people know he is capable of hearing a head coach, to get those things and continue to speak on behalf of more african-americans becoming head coaches. tavis: i am not naïve in asking this. what is it you think still makes enduring andh an empowering arbiter of the way our society runs? noi think there is almost part of our society in which you see human nature laid bare the way it is laid bare in sports. even with all the trappings around it, all the paraphernalia, all the merchandise, when the game starts, you see people almost living and dying on the field in

front of our eyes and real-time. you see collapsing under pressure. you see courage. you see wisdom. everything, and it is unmediated by everything else while that game is going on. i think that makes us feel an attraction to it for better or that with an importance goes beyond the game. these ideas go back to the ancient greeks, probably in the ancient culture. the athlete is a valorous individual. the hero myth. it also means when you have individuals in that world who excel athletically but also stand for something larger -- paul robison, joe louis, jackie harris, kenmes

riley. when they stand for something visibilityy command and have an impact on society beyond what many other private individuals or public individuals in other fields could command. of everybody who stands on your shoulders, thank you. >> thank you. the book is called "breaking the line: the season in black college football that transformed the sport and changed the course of civil rights." written by samuel friedman. for tonight.ow thanks for watching. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with acclaimed

singer-songwriter angelique kidio. that is next time. we will see you then. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

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