tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with toni braxton and kenneth "babyface" edmonds. their new album is both universal and autobiographical. we are glad you joined us. our conversation with a be face ce and toni braxton coming up right now. ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. -- tavis: toni braxton and kenneth "babyface" edmonds have a long history together, so much that she calls him her musical husband. over the course of their careers they have united, separated, and reunited. the new title is appropriate. it is called "love, marriage & contains 11 tracks

they have learned about each of those experiences. clip from the cd. >> ♪ ♪ i apologize ♪ i never meant to hurt you ♪ i never meant to break your heart ♪ ♪ god knows i never meant to ♪rt you tavis: i want to start with you because the first ring i did when i got the cd, i opened it notes,ked at the liner

and i want to know everything i can about the cds i am listening to. . have seen this 1000 times it is hard to write better than he writes. one of the great songwriters, i think the greatest songwriter of our era, but you are not intimidated, because i see these were cowritten with toni braxton. >> he encouraged me to write. i was going through a divorce, and he said let's write about it. you know how to write. i was a little uncomfortable at first, but he said, put your emotions to lyrics. will help you with the music. tavis: was that intimidating to you?

>> he is my favorite writer, but he made me uncomfortable. it's one thing to write with him. it seems another thing to be willing to be transparent enough to put your life in lyrics. how do you manage that? aboutwould just talk marriage issues. it.t made it easier to sing at with him i don't feel i have to hide anything. we have been together since 1992. i am telling my age. comfort.it is a it's like i am at home. even though i was intimidated, he encouraged me.

there are a few of those moments. overall it is raver. tavis: it made me appreciate your writing even more as a fan. it's one thing to have someone in the room helping you write the stuff that you get a model -- a woman's perspective who knows more than we can never know about what it means to be a woman. then i flash back to things like give it a chance, and the list of things you have written when there wasn't a toni braxton. where does that come from. where does that come from? >> i think you just write about feelings.

you write about that. you know when you have been hurt, so you write about it. i don't think there is a big difference between what a man feels and what a woman feels. tavis: there may not be a difference, but you have a way -- i have seent you in concert a zillion times. you have a way of expressing it where women in the audience go crazy because it resonates. be afraid to be emotional on stage. tavis: that's the trade. tell me where this process began. you have been together, gone your separate days. tommy what the genesis for coming together is. and mys going to retire,

family was trying to talk me through it, and it wasn't working. she said, what are you doing. the heat of our conversations were not on camera. it gave me some encouraging words i didn't hear initially. after a while it started to penetrate. we have the music to hear ourselves. you should never retire. it took a while. a couple months. he got me to the studio finally. gotdn't say anything when i there. he coaxed me through it and finally got me in the booth and he said, you have to remember you have this instrument. it's beautiful. learn to love it. i am going where you are

going, which is why in the world you were thinking about retiring. >> i don't know if you have been in a phase in your life that is very uncomfortable, very dark. little depressed. i had lupus. i don't know if you know that. i had just been diagnosed with lung clot. i kept feeling every time i get knocked down i have the courage to get up, but this time i can't do it anymore. thought, this is it. i had no plans. i had no idea what i was going to do. i wasn't afraid to be there. that's when you know it is a form of depression. tavis: i want to press one more time. this is all you have ever known, but you have been blessed to do it so well, and to be celebrated for it and rewarded for it, i am

curious. what do you think you might have done? what would you do? >> this is true. i was thinking about acting, play a mom, play something true to character. i had no idea what i was going to do. i had no idea how i was going to pay my bills. worry about that later. hers: that advice you gave not to retire, before you said that my voice that's my mind was there. if this is what your advocation is -- we grew up in the same church. when you grow up in this, you understand if this is the gift you have been blessed to have, this is your calling in the world, how are you not going to do it? how do you ever retire from music? when you are a true artist, can you ever retire?

>> there are those that could. there is the love of music and the business of music. the business can take you out. every artist gets to a point where you question your relevance, and you want to be relevant. you want to make sure everyone appreciates your music and appreciate you. you get to the point that is in question. elsealong with everything you are knocked down in so many general.s life in you get lost. thererget what you were for in the first place. tavis: you are saying stuff i want to dig a little deeper into. when you say every artist at some point goes through a phase where he or she wonders whether or not they are relevant.

what did you mean by that? relevancy for an artist can't be tied to radio airplay. that's the easy way to look at it, but a true artist, that can't be what makes you relevant. >> the first is record sales. go out and tour, are people coming to see you? do people care? that's when you were relevant before, when everybody wanted to see you. what happens when people don't want to see you? you want to perform. you want to sing, but you don't have anywhere to perform or sing, and you don't know if anyone cares. artist that is where you give, and if nobody is willing to accept it, that is a strain. , notave to get past that depending on record sales.

records. so many she sold 8 million -- more than that. one album she sold 8 million records. if she never sells another record, you are good. what youdone your job. have to do is get back to the point of loving the music you do. it's not caring about how many record sales, but doesn't feel good to you. if it feels good to you, you are going to be happy, and it is going to show up on the records you may, and people are going to fall in love with it again. that's what they fallen in love with. tavis: i have a hard time imagining. i cannot imagine you'll ever get to a place where people won't want to hear you. you might not be selling out staples center or wembley in london, but there's always going to be a fan is the stuff you do is going to stand the test of time. some stuff is going to not be played put a five years from

now, but yours will be. how is it you were able to get yourself in a position where you were able to navigate both the artistry of the business and the business of the business? everybody wants to write their own stuff. they want to own their own content. they want to make money for years to come. i want to be able to stay on the charts. you were able to do well as an artist and a businessman. how did you do that? >> because i have been able to work with artists like toni braxton. i have worked in different genres of music. it wasn't just all me. if i had to just do a babyface album, it would be irrelevant. because i have been able to do all these other things, i have been able to grow from them and learn a lot from them as well. i have been around so many

artists. michael jackson used to chase relevancy. he always wanted to go bigger and better and keep that audience. he said, never a point i am going to play at no kia and that is all. that was never acceptable. as an artist, you chase that all the time. that it's nots chase.ience that you what you should be chasing is the love of the music. that you are in love with the music you do, because that's what pulls the audience in. honestey know you are and they can sniff out honesty if you are trying to be

young and trying to be something you're not, a consents that. if you are a great artist like toni braxton is they will see it. >> there is a lot of honesty on this record. there are a couple of lines on one of the songs. your wish. it is so honest i cannot even repeat it on pbs, because it is just that honest. cut to me about the project specifically and about the content because there is some good stuff. >> my parents had gone through a divorce. for 35y parents married years. they got a divorce. my mom had these issues. i wrote a song, i wish you'd break your heart. my mom said to my dad, i wish that woman would break his heart. i wish he'd get this is ease. all these things.

i said, this has to go on the album. that all works. you are an artist. that's my point. >> it's an honest song. women feel that way. do guys feel that way? >> yes. >> have you ever felt that way. tavis: no comment. i will ask the questions, make you very much. i am just being funny. when you get together, you get these great artist together, and you decide you want to do something, do the songs come does the frame come first? sounds like love, marriage, and divorce. what comes first? start singing about issues of the heart.

it became love, marriage, and divorce. something she wanted to sing about something that matters. she was going through a divorce, and i said, we have to sing about it. we have to sing about the love as well and how it happened. ittially we were going to do through the whole relationship, and it started to feel like a play and not honest. it soon became a collection of .ongs that give you feelings therek a minute to get for the sake of us being in the studio and figuring out what works. tony became a writer. she knew everything.

we had a few times when we were fighting like cats and dogs. tavis: how is toni braxton going to tell you? >> toni braxton is going to tell anybody what she think she knows. >> it's a girl thing. tavis: this is what they call in ae business these days concept album. it's not just a bunch of songs. there is a concept. i have talked to a thousand artists over the years who are trying to find the right concept for their new project, which strikes me as interesting. i think the last time i saw you we were backstage at a stevie wonder concert. did all the songs in the key of life and just killed it.

the whole album top to bottom. it just reminded me there aren't albums made like that anymore where you put the thing on and go from top to bottom. what happened to the business -- it's hard to go to a record store and just pick a bunch of albums that are new. you put them on and you are happy to hear them top to bottom and it all makes sense like a concept. most part people are chasing hit singers -- hit singles. you don't necessarily think about the album and whether it feels good. the main thing we talked about the first priority was that it felt good. everything, it felt good. once we were there everything else had fallen into place. when we sat down we didn't know

what the songs would be. we had no idea. and talk aboutn a concept album all day long and not get it. that itwe were lucky felt right. the very first song we did was hurt you. was sitting there with darrell simmons. we were sitting at the studio going -- toni started singing. the moment she started singing, oh, my god. that is toni braxton. it was so nice to hear and feel. i felt like i hadn't heard her or felt her like that in a long time. >> aside from the fact you know you have done something wonderful everyone is talking about already, were there other takeaways for you? at the conclusion of this project? you know you can still sing, and you know you have a great record

, but since you were on the verge at one point of walking away from this, were there other that youns you had feel a little better about? >> i am better. it's not 100% because it's a process. i like my voice again. tavis: is there a time you didn't? >> yes, i thought it was out of style and dated because that is what i was being told. true.ght, that's not i like my voice. i used to love my voice. that's one reason i wanted to be a performer. i love singing. i think sometimes artists lose sight. sometimes i see other artists and i am like, they are so huge. look at their success. i forget my contribution, too. you can get lost sometimes looking over the fence at other people and forget what you have in your own backyard. strikes me comment as fascinating. i know what you mean by it.

i suspect you have heard this, that for somebody to tell you your voice is out of style. that's one thing for your songwriting tom a your style of playing -- there are advances in instrumentation and production, but how does a voice go out of style? >> it was insulting. the industry has changed. like fashion, but i considered myself a classic black dress that never goes out i lost track of that. tavis: what do you do with that? >> you ignore it. >> i didn't do that. >> you just ignore it. there are certain songs there is a particular way you would sing. using behind the beat. if you don't do that, you are

dated. you are too old school. basically what is happening in music today is the door is open again and people are not so narrow minded about what ha s to be trendy. there are people who are making music to make people feel good. making peopleg of feel good, i want to thank you for bringing back melody. thank you very much. somewhere along the way it just got lost. themelody just went out window. nobody is writing melody anymore. >> there are a few people. i think because of that, those few people that are, it's kind of open the door for even toni and i to reappear because it is happening.

rall -- no mars. -- bruno mars. coming ups been with great melodies. it is changing. melody,ke comes up with so you just got to look for it. it might not always be your cup of tea, but i think that's why i have always listened to everything. if there is something you don't like a particular genre, you can find it elsewhere. tavis: you know everything about singing. what is your takeaway about songwriting? >> i enjoyed the songwriting process. i didn't think i would enjoy it as much as i have. i am a singer. i want to sing about my feelings as opposed to write about them. i felt very comfortable. it took a second for me to get

there, but i feel like i could write for other people in the studio may be. tavis: you are to start writing for him. if you could do it, i ain't mad at you. they are back together, and their project is called "love, marriage & divorce" starring toni braxton and babyface. it doesn't get much better than this. i am honored to have you on the program. that's our show for tonight. thank you for watching. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a .onversation with rhea perlman that's next time. we will see you then.

♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be

tonight on "quest" -- thousands of them are sneaking through the brush statewide. they're wild boar, an invasive species with a long list of bad habits. find out what californna is doing to keep them from cutting a swath of destruction through our native flora and fauna. and stargazing isn't just for phd scientists with mountaintop telescopes. meet the bay area mmn who helped bring astronomy down to earth for the est of us. major funding for "quest" is provided by -- the national science foundation. the gordon and betty moore foundation, investin