tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight an assessment of developments in ukraine with we have seen the charges.leader flee on then we turn to a conversation with oscar nominee steve coogan. director ofar and the film that is up for four oscars. we are glad you joined us.

those conversations are coming up right now. ♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ tavis: the last few days have brought positive developments in ukraine.

it has also focused the world attention on the political tug-of-war many the as testament to the limits of russian influence onin's the region. here to give us insight is robert english director of the usc school for international relations. good to have you on this program. tavis: >> thank you. good to be here. for those who have been reading about this but don't know the genesis of this, how did this mess start? the spark was president yanukovych's decision after raising hopes that he would sign an agreement about beginning the the europeanin union, to not sign that and instead turn to russian economic aid. they began protesting until to

the streets. >> tell me why the citizens of ukraine were so disturbed by this decision to not go forward with this deal. >> there is a legitimate inition for a better life the sense that joining the european union with its advantages of aid and support and reforms would make a difference in their lives. maybe not tomorrow but in the long run. the expectations were raised very high, and they were dashed. that's a key point we often overlook. . europeans and especially russians raised this to such a fever pitch that this was a crucial and only decision point. you remember about a civilizational choice, that this was the final chance, so it raised the perceived stakes so high the disappointment

exploded, and i think that was correct. tavis: a civilizational choice is a big standard. to save theh bar decision rests on this. >> i would say it's exaggerated. russia is part of europe. russia has a long way to go. europe has problems of its own. i don't think politicians can choose civilizations. i think civilizations and culture determine politics, so the sense that the decision of putin in moscow, the decision of yannick povich in kiev could change yet -- decision of kovich invitz -- yanu kiev could change things. what was it the citizens

thought would be forthcoming? in terms of everyday life, what were their expectations of what was to be forthcoming? >> this is a great question. it provides me a chance to give an example of the misperceptions i am talking about. the fact is while many ukrainian citizens may have thought they had immediate improvement in standards, he was anything but. all you have to do is look over poland history, bulgaria, romania, who traveled this long, hard path to join the european union, and you know once you sign this agreement and begin the difficult process of transforming your country's , all youinstitutions have is 10 years of pain, because the first thing asked of you is to cut your budget deficit, and that usually means reducing aid for people on the bottom of the social ladder.

it means cutting jobs. there are industries that have been subsidized and have added payrolls, so cut the subsidies. there is unemployment. it has happened that way everywhere. the immediate benefit comes to the business class because a gain access to the european come veryose benefits quickly. those people probably had a romanticized vision of what lay , because european officials and russians painted it in all or nothing terms. tavis: what was there to gain for the the eu if this went through? >> i inc. and expensive, weak junior member that is going to need a lot of help for a long time, but in the long run, expanding the union. that means 45 million new members. it expands their market. ukraine is a rich agricultural country, and it has significant

minerals and other resources aat if properly tapped under market system would contribute to european posterity a decade, maybe 20 years out. tavis: you follow this every day, but for those who have a cursory understanding of the news, the problem is the eu ain't doing great of late. point it ukraine at one thought it salvation was being part of this partnership? >> they were suffering from certain illusions. they ought to know better if they study the way academics do the painful history of joining the eu, but many had illusions it would be immediate financial support, so maybe they had a romanticized notion of how it could happen. on the other hand, it's clear that russia plays a part in this

as well. russia has been issuing higher exactly the opposite direction, which goes to this problem of what ukrainian people really think, because you ask the question. the ukrainian people wanted this. their hopes were dashed. those who came on the square thought that way. let's not forget, that wasn't an electoral process. that was a lot of disappointed, angry, highly motivated people who came out. we haven't heard from those who might be more euro skeptical, those who lean more to russia. i'm not saying they are the majority, but this is a divided country. tavis: we will talk about resident yannick ovitz -- yanukovich on the run in just a minute. putin can't seem to get a break. the olympics come there and get all the negative rest. --had a lot of negative rest

press. now he is connected to this story in another way. ?hat is this for putin >> two things. one is this customs union that would be comprised of several former soviet republics and for which ukraine was the big prize. without ukraine it only has russia and small countries. ukraine would have been a big addition, but bigger than that is the fear that as ukraine the u.s., european leaders as well, will not only seek to expand the european union, which is no direct threat, but that seems to go with expanding nato, and the russians are worried about a new all those bases on its southern flank.

it's especially explosive because russia maintains its own naval base. explosive should ukraine go in the direction of joining nato. you don't need a lot of memory. it was only a few years ago under president george bush that we were pushing for ukrainian fast-track membership in nato. they have every reason to fear that the next president might try to repeat that, so for them ukraine is of enormous strategic importance. they don't want to be part of this american alliance. tavis: what a difference a few years mean. the runch is now on charged with mass murder. what's going to happen to him? >> i don't know. i haven't heard the latest as to whether he is still in crimea. yanukovych is yesterday's guy.

what really concerns me is what we spoke about before, these heightened expectations and disbelief, pretty romanticized, that europe offers a fast track for prosperity. ukraine is in such awful shape at the 10 years of pain and suffering as they reform and adjust that poland went through will be more like 24 ukraine. is yesterday'sch news with the opposition leader. we now know that elections are set and those that want to run are going to throw their name in the hat. in the coming days, what do you make of what will happen with the electoral process for the new leader? >> the pro-western liberals had a chance in power after the orange revolution. the removal of another corrupt leader in 2004-2005, and without

giving you ukrainian numbers, wieder was the prime minister, and all the condition seemed perfect for rapid -- opposition leader was the prime minister, and all the conditions seemed perfect for rapid improvement. they turned out to be and liberal forces proved incapable of making rapid progress in managing the country. that's why they were voted out was voted in. let's hope we see more maturity and less naked ambition. unfortunately, a lot of naked ambition has been on display. tavis: a quick question. why does all this matter to citizens of this country? toi think it doesn't matter us directly the way it does to europe, which has to go to worried about stability on their continent, refugees, economic

prosperity. it matters because of russia. we need good relations with russia. not writing off ukrainian hopes or aspirations, but we have to do this in concert with can.a, and we there are compromises that take account of european and western interest in russian interest which will allow ukraine to liberalize in a way that satisfies everyone. unfortunately, the zero-sum mentality both sides have shown, this continuation of the cold war approach has only aggravated the crisis today. whatat is happening and might be happening, we don't know what is going to happen in ukraine, but it's worth following. forks for having -- thanks coming. we are glad to have your insights. steve coogan is with us. akin a moment. in a moment. steve coogan is best known in

his native england as a comedian, but he's a front runner for this season's academy award for a movie that tackles a serious issue. "philomena" which he cowrote, costars, directed, and produced as well. searchesut a woman who for the teenager she gave up for adoption. it has become an international smash and a winner of several awards including the british equivalent of an oscar for the screenplay. we will start by taking a look ." the clip from "philomena >> he was in trouble or in prison. i thought he was happy somewhere and doing all right. >> don't upset yourself? if he is obese? i read the study that said a lot of americans are huge. what if that has happened to him?

because of the size of the portions. >> i love judi dench. program aen on this couple times. how did you get her to do this? >> i got in touch with her agent. i said i have got this story. there is a good part for an older lady. her the story. she said, judy has problems reading because her eyesight is not good. she said to go to her house and tell her the story. i drove to the house. she opened the door at this cottage in sussex. sandwich and a cup of tea. i said do you want to do this, and she said, i am very interested. i also toldd by it. her it would be funny. tavis: that's so cool to go to her house and have a sandwich and coffee and talk her into it. >> and i read the script, and it was a case of dotting the i's

and crossing the t's. tavis: for those who have seen this, and almost everybody has, for those who have seen it, they understand your point when you say there is some humor in it, because at first glance it's not a funny story. you are a comedian, so you are good at this, but how did you find the humor in this story? >> you're absolutely right. i said it's about a woman searching for her son, and it has a lot of tragedy. they would say, that sounds depressing. who would want to see that? i thought, i have got to make this funny. i met philomena, and i talk to them. i realize they are different characters. martin is an intellectual, and philomena is a blue-collar irish , so when you have two people so different you bang them into each other, and you can find the humor. when you have such a heavy

subject matter, i didn't want people to leave the cinema feeling depressed or down. somehow the story has a tragic element to it. i wanted people to leave feeling positive. also it's a difficult subject matter. it deals with religion and catholicism. people get touchy when you criticize their religion. you have to be very careful. i knew if i can make people laugh they will relax a little bit. they are not so scared about tavis: talking about these difficult subjects. when did you come across this story and realize it was a story that needs to be told. >> i read it in the newspaper. i came across this story, and it made me cry, and it made me -- i was ai wondered well known for being a comic performer in the u.k., and i

wanted to do something different, and i thought, this is an interesting story, because it's about an ordinary woman who went through an extraordinary experience. i also thought, it's about a mother and son, and everyone understands that want. it doesn't matter where you're from or what your background is. everyone understands that. i thought, if i can put some humor, it will resonate with people. also the story takes them to america. everyone here in america is from somewhere else. i hope that would chime with people. mean this is no disrespect, but given your comedic background, was it difficult to get people to take you seriously? >> sure, it was. i have a coproducer from this town in los angeles. form as ay had some producer of dramas, so she gave

me credibility. fortunately, the bbc cut me some i was very passionate about it. sometimes when people put you in a box as being a comic, it's very difficult to break out. you just got to keep hammering away. what was most emotionally arresting about you -- about the story once you got into it? >> it is that philomena has this great ill perpetrated against her. i don't want to spoil the film. if you haven't seen it, go see it. .he forgives she dignified her own faith. hecharacter is the cynic. criticizes a lot of aspects of religion. you regard herlm

as naïve. a blind believer in religion. that is the way it is characterized early on, so we have fun with it and laugh about it, but at the end of the film, she forgives the people who perpetrated this act against her. wasmost effective part seeing real grace. her grace kind of triumphs over this guy's intellect. it shows that you can be as intellectual as you like, but it doesn't mean you have all the answers. has aorking-class woman better approach to life than the guy with the oxford degree. tavis: for me it was this realization that at various points they are both trying to find each other. when are instances sometimes a child tries to find a parent. sometimes the parent might try to find the child that was taken

or they gave up, but when they are both on the search for each other -- >> that's the one thing that gives you faith is the fact that people can be apart physically, but they can still have an emotional connection. that's something we played on a lot in the film. us hope, thatives you can still love someone from afar and you still have those feelings across an ocean, which is literally the case in this movie. tavis: let me get a little personal. now that you established this friendship, what has been your takeaway from that relationship? what ill tell you learned. i'm not religion, -- religious, but it has given me a lot more respect for people who are. even though i'm not, i have learned that no one has a monopoly on wisdom. what i learned is to see that

even for people who aren't religious, you can learn things from religious people, and that's what i learned in the process of writing this. i have a little humility in my own views, and i think that is a healthy thing, but it took the writing of the film to help me arrive to that. tavis: i think that works both ways. sadly there are many who are religious who think it can't work the other way, that there is nothing to learn from agnostics or atheists. it works both ways. >> it does work both ways. he learns a lot. what happens to the end of the movie is he doesn't find god, but he does learn to respect her, and she doesn't try to make him find god. they coexist. at the end of the film they literally and physically stand shoulder to shoulder, and she makes the sign of the cross, and he doesn't, but he is with her, and he respects her, and she respects

him. i think there is something to learn from that. it's not an argument you can win, but you have to have a discussion about it with respect, and you can have a discussion with good humor. >> to your point about not being a religious person, i happen to be a very spiritual person. i'm not a catholic, but i had the chance to meet pope john a, and it was quite a moment to be in a room with bono and quincy jones and the small group of us who got a chance to go in and see the pope two popes ago. even though you are not a religious person, that had to be pretty cool. u.n. philomena are hanging out with pope francis. -- you and philomena are hanging out with pope francis. >> he listened. she has become a lightning rod for other women in her situation. he extended the invitation, knowing what the film is about.

they were very gracious about this film because some christian or catholic people in this asntry have seen the film being negative. it criticizes the institution, but philomena dignified as the faith. what was great is they watched the movie and laughed and cried and said -- i pointed out there has been some criticism in the u.s., and they said the church is a broad church, and those people are not who we are. we are comfortable with this film. we think it sends out the right message. they said the fact we invited you here is important. i am not religious. my parents are catholic. i have many values i take from it, but i am not. he said, not that a moment. doing his job. you never stop converting. congratulations on a wonderful

film and all the success. i really want to thank you, because i know you have been doing this everywhere, and here we are days away from the show, and you were kind enough to talk about it one more time. thank you. i appreciate it. >> you are the best interviewer. tavis: hopefully it's the last one you have to do. you are just a few days from the show. if you haven't seen "philomena" you will want to run out and do it before the big night so you will have seen all the movies before they start handing out the awards this sunday night. that's our show for tonight. thanks for watching. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with harry lennix the blacklist" about and

state of american movies. that's next time. we will see you then. ♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pbs.

% >> welcome. this week we are in historic niles. this year marks the 50th an searchesry an anniversary. he built a temple from the money he made. we have got lots to show you and it all starts now. ♪[ music ]