>> good evening from los angeles. i am tavis smiley. tonight, a conversation with harry lennix, who is currently being seen in the new hit series and will soon," be featured in a shakespeare presentation with an all-black cast. our conversation with harry lennix, coming up now. captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--

>> harry lennix has a resume packed with roles on hits like er and ally mc eel. on theurrently starring blacklist, where he tries to rein in a cagey mastermind criminal played by james spader. he can also be seen in a film version of shakespeare's henry the fourth featuring and all african-american cast. first, let's take a look at a

scene from the blacklist. >> i am not giving you access to the fbi files. >> then you will just have to find another criminal to talk to. >> we have an agreement. >> the agreement is for me to bring cases to year. it does not work the other way around. i am not a consultant. i have no interest in cases i have no interest in. find a hit these days with the new series, but you got one. >> we were up against some pretty stiff competition, but we somehow managed to break through. it only took me about 50 years. [laughter] >> what do you think is making this work? james spader. he is a masterful actor. megan boone has done a great job playing the young rookie profiler, and i think we have a good chemistry. you have diego and all. we are working well together and

we respect each other's game. >> spader is a great actor and i am not talking about the blacklist, but through the this 50 year career you joked about, when you see stuff on paper and you have about who is playing what character, do you always -- i don't want to ask if you always know, but what is the feeling in the gut you get as to whether you will fit nicely in this ensemble cast or maybe not so much over here? >> you never know. of things, i started off well and it did not wind up so well. nowvie of my own right started off shaky, but somehow, we found our footing and are getting close to the conclusion. if a studio or network is able to give you the time to find your rhythm, it usually works out ok, because we all went to

bring the best word we can to it and keep people -- work we can to it and keep people entertained. >> to the extent you can say anything about the film you are working on, do you want to say anything about it? >> i would love to. it has always struck me that we have some of the greatest music in the world, we call it sacred or gospel music, and we have never used it in a dramatic circumstance to tell the dramatic story of jesus christ. >> you are from chicago, a great city for that. >> i studied to be a priest. i came into gospel music late. listen to gregorian chants and formal stuff. when i got exposed to gospel music, i fell in love with it immediately. it struck me that very few people -- i am not aware of any black themed gospel merit is in

any way. the life -- narrative in any way. said to of jesus christ gospel music on film, i have not seen it. there was one thing called "the color of the cross" that blair underwood did, a short. but when can we play somebody who is bringing a gift to the world? what we know about the life of jesus is that we don't know exactly what color he was. we know he wasn't white, that we seer really get a chance to ourselves in something other than a subservient position. i for one have had enough. i think we need a message and the method that christ used to reach the world. this movie is called "revival ," and i think we are sorely in need of one throughout this

community. >> i miss seeing you. we don't see each other often enough. what do you make of the reality that scholars know that jesus wasn't white, and yet, for centuries now, that is the image we have been given. even my grandmother, who came always sayo, used to if you know better, you ought to do better. but even though we know better, we don't do better about the lack of color in jesus. what do you make of that reality? >> i think it is perhaps the single most important -- just in terms of its effect, how it has --ifested itself transposition of a truth in history. if you can actually identify somebody and take that person's religion, as it were, adopt it and -- the holy

roman empire under constantine did what anyone would do. they take a narrative that appeals to them and apply it to their situation. i am not aware of any other inup of people who go so far opposition to who they are and what they look like, but we swallowed it wholesale. >> is a brainwashing or conditioning? a certain amount of brainwashing thinking we cannot be capable of divinity, redemption, or being a conduit thereof, but i think we have been conditioned to think of ourselves as lesser because we cannot identify that image. that image is really important, ,he man with the flowing robes blonde hair, blue eyes, looked absolutely -- if you go there

today, nobody looks like that. and that was a time pre-era, so even more he would have looked african, ethiopian. constantine in particular, took that story and made the image into themselves, and then the holy roman empire went about conquering the rest of the world, and they took this image of the holy savior, and this image got given to us, and we didn't have any trouble swallowing it. >> what do you make of the fact that even though we have the african-american bible that has been published for years -- so there are people in chicago and beyond who have been trying to get us to look at the gospel a new, what do you make of the fact that we just ain't going there? >> i always talk about this issue, which is that people learn who they are by the images of themselves, the

representations of themselves. throughout the course of ,ramatic history, in plays shakespeare wrote three more-ish characters. two of them are villains. when you think of black, you think of bad. -- begun tome thatte this, too ingested put itngest it and to out there. i call it the allegory of the slaves who do not even know they are captive. they look at two-dimensional shadows of themselves. when they finally become unshackled and have a chance to look at the people behind the shadows, they reject the image. we have begun to accept the shadow of the reality and to reject the reality in favor of

this hyperreal, somehow more accessible image of ourselves. and frankly, they have done a very good job of it. images in the media, all of them , are replete with depraved and despicable black people, and there are very, very few images of admirable, redeemable, dignified black people. >> how much of what you just laid out without african-american characters or the lack of complex, fully developed african-american characters, how much of that weighs on you when you make decisions about what to play, like the blacklist or what have you? i have said so many times when we hang out and talk that this is a passion for you, maybe even a burden. i hate to use the word, but it may be a burden that you carry when it comes to decisions you make. am i too far afield?

>> i think you are right on the money. i consider it my raison d'être. there is no more important single thing in my life outside of family and god. it is the most important thing in my life, trying to , iniorate, redeem the image particular of african-american men and black men. i don't really like the term african-american. we are black people. i think that speaks to an experience we have had. but i think there is no more important thing we can do. we look at black boys being shot in places like florida -- not just florida -- with compete -- complete impunity. people can just say i felt threatened. and if you look at enough images of black boys and black men, you can understand, because we are always playing despicable and depraved people, not dimensional

eyes, not fully human, subhuman, as a matter of fact. the 3/5 human thing was something propagated that gained a foothold, and i think perhaps we as a filmmaking people now are adding more fuel to the than then more so dominant culture. i am here to provide a remedy to that. i do not circumscribe anybody's decision to make an artistic statement, but i know a lot of black people, a lot of black men who spend time with their children, love their wives, do the right thing, and i never get to see them. i am trying to provide. the bible is my third film. h four, which you mentioned, is something we are very excited is going to get out there this year. it is going to have theatrical

distribution. and my third film is going to have distribution sometime this spring or summer. i am not trying to play a holy man. that kind of thing is not dimensional eyes either. but tell the whole story. if you are going to tell the story, tell the whole story. >> how do you respond to people, even if they understand the point you are making and they are sensitized to it, maybe even agree with it to a certain extent, think that you are heavy-handed? i ask because i know you film ,he blacklist in new york city and i thought about skein and all the trouble he got into when he ripped on hip-hop back in the day. obviously, he is a jazz purist and a protector of the brand. espousingght hell for and expressing his point of view

about what was happening to our music and the lyrical content, etc. how do you respond to folks who think you are heavy-handed in your approach? >> i don't respond. if hell comes as a result of me speaking the truth, then let it come. these people clearly do not have a good idea about the damage being done continuously to the images of black men. they have no clue about it, or don't care about it, or are so moren that profit becomes -- you know, here is a thing that christ says. profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? and i think that is what has happened is a people. we have lost our souls. i am not alone in thinking this. elisha mohammed was very clear about what he thought and he was able to redeem a number of people who otherwise would have been lost.

i am trying to think about that kind of self-actualization. to diminishing other people or shakespeare movies that are not all black. i think the movies i make and continue to make our representative of the world in which we live. there are bad people and good people. if people don't like the truth, maybe they should watch another movie or listen to another point of view. what do you think about -- i wonder what you think about this point in history that black men are redeemable. the crisis, are they redeemable? i asked that because president obama, from your hometown of chicago, has said he wants to do

something, finally. six years in he wants to do something about the plight of black boys and brown boys. you mentioned florida and other places were black boys are being shot with impunity, but the data is so clear about the crisis that young black boys are enduring. tell me why you don't believe --t the damage done to us tell me why you think the damage not irreparable if we are redeemable. >> i think it is going to take a divine solution. you look at the seized people throughout history. a message has been brought to those people. the arabs before the prophet mohammed. what jesus was going through with the palestinian jews at the time. , and awho were occupied

message came, not just through jesus alone, but through others. i think we need a divine solution. i do believe, however, that we are redeemable, and it is certainly my intention to die trying, to help redeem us. with regard to the rhetoric of mr. obama, i have seen nothing. he talks a good game and he has done that for a very long time and he claims some sort of allegiance to chicago. but people get shot all the time and every time you mention a this,person, he mentions that, or the other. policy, ie an actual don't have hope that things will change. >> does that divine intervention

have anything to do with the black church? >> i think that should be a part of it. the black church is extremely important to black america. most americans will even a divine power, in a god. increasesthat number in black america. they need to believe in something. they don't have a lot of other indications from government or industry that any help is coming. a chance towe have do for ourselves, and they think this is the most important thing in the world, and they say that now possible through images and through media that we can make these products for ourselves. there is this thing called the internet which is its own platform. there is a great opportunity. i have seen it. i remember the old phrase we

used to have called each one teach one. booker t. washington and all these guys showed, in a time that was far more hostile, with a lot more obstacles legally speaking and so forth, that a little willpower could go a long way. your take is -- i obviously follow everything you say. i saw your comments about the butler. i wonder what you make of this season of black film. we are heading toward the academy awards. " is the oneslave that has been regarded the most. there were articles the year ago saying this is the year of the black film. what is your sense of the year that has been in black film that has been so regaled and regarded by all kinds of critics? >> i think it is appalling. , so inot see the movie have no sense of its aesthetic offering, i am sure it's well

made, but a well-made what? i am talking about 12 years, the butler, the help. all of this retrograde, retrogressive necrophilia which is of no use to us right now. that was a long time ago. those people were not helped in any great measure by people representing dramatically there -- i don't know what i am going to learn from those things. i haven't seen them, because there is nothing i can take away from it but humiliation and anger. i think history is history. that's great. if people learn from it, i am all for it. years, thern from 12 butler, any of these other movies, then god blessed them, god bless the movies. but i think that to continue to throw awards at these things only encourages people to

continue to live their lives in the past while the present is slipping away. the future is not here. the past is gone. there is a great quote by john --is got us where he says from john lewis where he says the president is a singularity where you have to fuse with continuity. i don't think things are better now than they were in the 1960's as a whole. we have less farmland, less industry, people dropping out of school, fewer jobs. if you look at the indexes, which you have pointed to many times, and you are right. as long as you can get people distracted and thinking about the past and how much better it is now than it was then -- which is a lie -- then you can continue to keep their eyes off the prize. >> why do you think hollywood loves to keep us in the past?

they want anynk challenges. i think hollywood is consent -- content with condescending to black people, patronizing and feeling sorry for us, and i think we are happy to take the pat on the head as a people and take whatever awards -- it is kind of like a consolation prize. if you played down trodden and beaten up and a white man comes , or thed saves you white woman, then they are going ascontinue to see themselves without their help, we would still be in the subhuman condition we were in before they came along and saved us. hollywood loves to pat itself on spousek and a

rhetorically liberal points of view while they continue to be the one percent and point the finger at the other guy. i think it is wrong. nor do i have any fear of calling a spade a spade, so to speak. and until they shut me up, i am going to keep talking. gig on thea blacklist. they keep calling you. you keep getting tv shows. you are doing four or five movies at one time. you do this with such kurdish and such conviction and such commitment and such character cut -- with such her edge, and such conviction, and such commitment, and such character, and i just love that about you. >> the truth is more important to me than my personal wealth or health or any of these things. it's not so difficult for me to say what i am saying.

blook at people like steven go or elijah mohammed or malcolm or martin king, or any of these people who are willing to risk all of it to speak truth to power. unless we can continue to do that -- i am sick of this politically correct, i have to be very nice about these things. i don't have to be nice. they are not nice to me. they are not nice to us. it is wrong with telling a man to get your foot off my neck and allow me to do for myself without having to rewrite history to make it look like you did something for me when you didn't? please show me where that is, although i cannot say that there -- i can say that there are nice hearted, good, thinking people who really do want to help. some of them really are liberal. some are conservative but believe we deserve as much humanity as the next guy.

at this point, black or white is far less the issue than the truth. king said i would rather be dead than be afraid. harry can be seen in the blacklist. it ain't this deep, but it's deep. i sure enjoy it. i am glad you are here and the blacklist is blessed to have you there. thanks for coming on. that's our show for tonight. thanks for watching, and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> high, i'm tavis smiley, join me next time for a conversation about the book "a short guide to a long life." that's next time. we will see you then. pbeat theme music ♪)

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