tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with silent halfusually of penn & teller. to unravel how the 17th century artist created those paintings out of -- with exceptional detail. robert hilburn with "johnny cash: the life." those conversations coming up right now. ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: teller, the silent half lks loud andller ta clear in the first documentary "tim'sdirected called

verneer." verneer created those canvases. directed by teller. am loving my head up and down so i can see first the original and then my canvas. i am looking at both things at the same time. right on the four head you can see the match. you cannot see that. matchs your clue you can the paint. it is not subjective, it is objective. i am a piece of human photographic film at that point. pbs and you can actually talk tonight. you can talk as much as you want to talk. [laughter] i am going to make you talk. i wanted you to talk. let me start with this.

of talking. my staff have been talking my ear off for days about how i had to see this project. >> it was for work so you had to. tavis: of talking. my staff have been talking my ear they wanted me to sign off on having you on the program and i said tell me about the project and when they explained it soundedthought boring. they were excited about a painter painting. ok. there isyou see it, nothing like boring. >> is one of the jokes that tim make stirring the story. he says this is a lot like watching paint dry. there is a certain amount of that in this project. it is a detective story in its way. there is this 350-year-old mystery. makeid premier -- vermeer paintings that look so much like photographs? we went to amsterdam and saw originals and you stand that far

away and you think you're looking at a fantastic color slide. how does he do that? the theories over the years have is like some sort of supernatural creature who was able to record the brightness of everything precisely like a light meter but that i cannot do that. this mystery has been floating around and there is a considerable amount of controversy. tavis: why would you want to step into, of all the controversies, why step into this one? with mys brought -- parents were artists. i have always been around painters. the solution, the magic trick that tim believes that vermeer was using is a 45 degree angle mirror which is one of the basics of magic. i have known tim for about 20 years along with penn. he was a genius in electronics.

his company created lightwave which is that thing that when nuclear explosion, that is how they are doing it. this guy knows a tremendous amount about how to make a convincing image so he might be the right kind of character to track down this answer. about tim and his process than about vermeer. were fascinated with the detective aspect. we realize this is more about our friend. he is sweet, he is funny but he is maniacally driven. for example, he has this theory about how vermeer did the paintings involving a little bit of a mirror. he does a preliminary test making an immaculate copy of a

high school photograph of his father-in-law which is what you saw in that clip. anybody else would go, i guess that kind of proves it. not tim. i have to find out if this would really work under the conditions that vermeer worked under. what does tim do? and takes delft pictures of every piece of furniture that would have been in the painting and he goes back to his warehouse in san antonio, texas and reach creates -- studio.es vermeer's he makes a chair based on one of the photographs city gets exactly that. he learns to grind his own paints. he sits there and he melts silica into a lump of glass and then sits there and grinds the lands that he is going to use not to be sure that he is having a lens that is too good.

he wants a lens only as good as vermeer's and completely builds vermeer's studio in texas. that is a guy i got to love. tavis: it would appear to one that does television that you guys shot this with cameras on his brushes. shoots multi-camera obviously but when you look at the high-quality nature of the way you see tim doing everything he is doing, tell me how he shot -- a lot of the time there was nobody there well this was being shot except tim and his cameras. he would come in every morning and this was not easy because he is a night person. now that he has the -- to become vermeer, he would spend an hour or two setting up the cameras on the next piece of work he was

doing. this is not a movie that would have been possible even 10 years ago because now the digital photography is so cheap, you can camera andy canon mounted here and mounted there and get good quality pictures. there were 2400 hrs of footage that we pulled this movie out of. is thewhat to your mind message here for those of us who are non-artists and what is the message here for those who are artists, assuming that they are two different and they are not the same? >> i think most people who consume art, who watch it from home, who go to museums, they are riding along on the joy of the final artistic product and they do not really know very much about how much goes into getting their. there are lots of people who look at a vermeer and they like to believe it appeared out of nowhere. probably vermeer if you was

using a process like tim's spent many hours a day for six months at a time hunched over canvas meticulously doing each and every little stroke. i think it is really wonderful to remind people that you do not get the good stuff easy. and that is one of the big things for me. getting something as good as a vermeer, that this not pop out of nowhere. it.have to work -- for i do not know if you can see that on tv. tavis: you got close enough. we got the point. that nonverbal communication. for art purists, does this ultimately make them respect vermeer more or say, ah. >> i do not know what an art purist is. snobs andre are everything. >> you talk to an artist and the artists as well, cool. vermeer was not just a great

composer of paintings. he did not just have fabulously beautiful ideas but may have developed or been involved in the development of a piece of technology that got this level of realism way back then when nobody else was doing that kind of thing. tavis: that is my point. it ain't supposed to be about your technology. it is about the craft and your skill. not about technology. do not havets anything to do except talk about the arts. feed their have to families by selling their paintings. tavis: fair enough. >> they can say that vermeer was an inspired genius and who walked up to a canvas and magically painted it with life which is perfectly fine but it is depressing. it means that i, if i am an inspired kid and i want to do art and i believe the only way you can get to art is by being an inspired genius who can do what no human being can do, that is depressing for me. that's as you can never do it.

there is something about tim aspect, a a can-do can-do attitude towards art. that this movie celebrates. artso think that some critics and historians just do not like the idea of working that much. they are used to pontificating which is pretty easy work. they do not like the idea of someone might have to sweat. tim told me he would get up and typically, shortly into the painting session, he would have to take two or three aspirin to keep his act from cramping up. leaning over this canvas is hard. me giveive me -- let you the impression that this is a terrible tale of suffering. it is a funny tale of suffering. tavis: i can go with that. what was the personal takeaway for you from what you learned about vermeer? i ask that because you said this not long ago. whenever i am in the company of icons or reading, there are all

kinds of biographies in any of my three or four libraries because i love to read of the journey that those persons who have had their life, how they got there. you see my glory but you do not know the back story. i want to know the back story. what was the take away from you as an artist about what you learned about this other artist named vermeer? >> i had never previously had even a hint that vermeer might have had a scientific bent. so the idea that art and science -- around the same rough period that we had people like da vinci around. she -- daand even vinci writes about scientific conventions. we should not be separating this as much as we tend to.

we tend to go to art school or science: not both. that is the closest to a surprise for me. the other surprise is that tim pulled it off. he was doing something impossible. he was trying to do something that had not been done for 350 years and he did it. as you know from having seen the movie halfway through, he realized that his invention does not do the whole job. it has to -- he has to reinvent it halfway through. just being around someone with that much passion for life, it is exhilarating. tavis: i want to hear this from you. from seeing your work over the years. for you, what is the power, what is the authority in the silent part of your performance? the silence is what? >> and missy. silence is intimacy. when you have words between yourself and another person, that person does not have to look at you and absorb every

little detail of what is going on with you. when you strip that away, you're quite naked on stage. you are quite naked between you and the other person and there is a kind of intimacy that you get out of that that language cannot substitute for. tavis: love it. you have done good here. you done good. you enter cast and crew. >> that flew by. tavis: that means you got to come back again. you are in vegas. just hop over. >> invite me. tavis: i just did. tavis: johnny cash gave voice to the stories and lives of everyday folk. his life was as complex as any. he was a man filled with self doubt, who battled addiction before finding redemption. hilburn tells cash's

story. the text is called "johnny cash: the life." here is johnny cash singing one " falseiconic songs, imprisonment blues." ♪don't ever play with guns ♪ but i shot a man in reno just to watch him die ♪ ♪ what i hear that whistleblowing i hang my head and cry ♪ ♪ we were talking at the break that is a clip of johnny cash performing in compton. compton in 2014 you do not think of a country guy. what was he doing in compton

customer >> there was a country music show kind of like the grand ole opry. a lot of servicemen moved into that area. there was a real country music haven before hip-hop. hilburn has a t-shirt on. who is this in this picture? >> that is -- i am standing next to him at fulsome prison in 1968. i look like a narc. i have got a suit on. that was incredible. that was the l.a. times. i was trying to convince them to hire me. what about doing a story about him and they said they did not want to give space to that drug addict. that was his reputed age and at the time. tavis: of all the artists you have written about and obviously we are all individuals but what makes johnny cash so different than all the other artists? ask thai wrote over and over agn

about artists who were meaningful. seemedspringsteen, it cash had the most interesting back story. coming from the cotton fields of arkansas, entering county -- country music in the 1950's. he wanted to use his music to inspire people. so where did that come from? that was kind of and i knew all about the demons he went through, the struggle between the demons and drugs and the artistry. i wanted to explore that path. tavis: the demons and drugs on the other -- on the one hand. he carried a bible everywhere he went. arkansast to church in every -- twice on sunday and once on wednesday. here these destitute farmers singing gospel music. it lifted them up and give them hope. that was his main thing was

trying to lift people up. he was for the underdog. ira hayes, native americans. fulsome prison. no matter how much you stumbled fell or how far you got from god, do not give up. you can still be redeemed. as someone says, keep the faith. tavis: appreciate it. how influential was that music that cash was hearing with developing his own sound and beyond gospel, what are the elements, the ingredients that helped him create his own song styling? rex he grew up mainly gospel, not just country gospel. -- when he knocked on elvis,llips' door after he did not want to be the next elvis presley. he wanted to be a gospel singer. sam phillips said he cannot sell -- we cannot sell gospel music. he turned to secular music. as soon as he got to columbia he went back and started doing gospel music.

secular music and gospel music, sometimes combining them. ne," every now -- everyone knows this is a message to his wife. in his heart he was saying i would be faithful in a different way. he was talking in a religious way. he winked at me and said that was my first gospel hit. even though sam phillips never knew that. sense i'm trying to get a of how his childhood or what happened in his childhood that caused him to wrestle with these demons and these drugs, i am trying to connect those dots. >> arkansas during the depression, his family had a farm in kingsland, arkansas. bale toent from 125 a $25. farmers could not exist any more. willet up a program, we

give you 15 acres of land and you start, we will give you the land, ups back someday soon his father went 200 miles to dice, arkansas and work every day in the field, it was terrible land. it was not choice farmland because the government could not afford that. cash from the age of six would be out there with him in the fields and they would again always singing gospel songs to lift their spirits. later, his brother died in an accident. his brother was the golden boy of the family. the father love the other boy and he told johnny emma he would say your dreams are silly and he said i wish it had been you instead of him. think of what it does to the self image of somebody. thing he seesonly is gospel music. when he starts being a star he remembers that, he remembers the lack of self-esteem and the gospel music and wherever he

goes the man in black, that song, i wrote that for the old and hungry and that was his purpose. that was the one thing that he fought and also keeping a low suit to his face. that is what he thought he was put on earth to do, to spread the word, the gospel. did black become the color for him? >> it was funny. you start off with a contract and we would drive 300 miles a night between cities. they had white clothes and they would get them dirty. they put on black clothes and you'd did not notice the dirt. he used it as a symbol but initially it was because it was practical. tavis: his relationships. and aok delves into it very deep way. i cannot do justice to it in this conversation so i will say his relationships with women. >> the first marriage was ill-fated. he knew this first wife 17 days before he goes to germany and the air force for three years and they write letters back and

forth. and all the letters they're saying i love you, let's get married. he -- she is thinking he will come home every night after dinner and we will have dinner. he is thinking i will be on the road 300 daisy are making money and i will come back and my wife will be waiting for him so she felt abandoned and started resenting what he did so he started to look for someone and he took that as another blow to self-esteem, she does not like what i do see started looking for women, not groupies but women in music and he found one. the strange thing about the movie, it is the story that june wanted told. it is fiction, a fairy tale. if there had been one word in 1960'se in the early there would never have been a june carter. he asked the widow of hank williams, billy jean horton to marry him. she said no. she had gone through the drugs with hank williams and she did not want to go through the jar -- the drugs with johnny cash.

an addict. once you start on the drugs you cannot stop. the reason he did, he was trying to block out that thing his father said. -- he waso trying to abandoning his family. he was leaving his daughters. that was the most painful thing. i have letters that show from 1960, 1880, and 1990, he is asking roseanne and the other daughters, lease forgive me, placed up resenting me. i was trying to survive back then. it was not really resolved until almost his deathbed. tavis: had he made peace with these parts of his life at the time he passed question mark rex the great lesson is every day of his life, he is trying to entertain but he is trying to inspire. you can be redeemed. he lost his family and legacy and music but by the end, the family was back, the love of the daughters, he had his music career and his legacy back. he was off the drugs. he was redeemed himself on his

deathbed. that was his message. you can be redeemed. his lesson exemplified everything he was saying, his life. tavis: is his musical legacy safe and i close with that? he had lost his music. is his music legacy safe? >> chiefly because of rick rubin. that thenflubbed the legacy would have been tarnished. he was 70 years old and he could not see anymore and he lost the finger -- feeling in his fingers and haggle, and diabetes and he was in terrible shape and he still rallied and did the video, "hurt," that is beautiful stuff. like a book on him just you are doing a book on martin luther king, you tackle a great subject. the reason we are attracted to them is that they are going to

be remembered. they had a calling and they lived, that was their life. tavis: and they were imperfect. >> of course. if they were not perfect i do not think we could relate to them. tavis: johnny cash is a great subject area and but you know what else? robert hilburn is a great writer. that is why the new york times rates this as one of the best books. i was -- the book is just that good. the book is called "johnny cash: the life," by robert hilburn. congratulations on a great book. thank you for watching and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with -- as we take a deep dive into what is grabbing the country. that is next time. we will see you then.

♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

next on kqed newsroom, looking for a makeover. the republicans have their convention this weekend. rebrandy. one pushes for race and gender to be considered in college admission. >> we have to make sure we have a diverse population, but more importantly, a diverse work force. >> and heeded the ablgctions ofs efforts to reverse parts of 209.