tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight, first a conversation with academy award-winning documentarian errol morris whose latest film titled "the unknown known" shines a light on arnold rumsfeld. he was one of the primary architects of the iraq war. this film draws on extensive memos he wrote detailing why he took us to war and why he would do it again. then we will turn to a conversation with grammy nominated singer-songwriter ledisi about her new cd called "the truth." we are glad you could join us. conversations with errol morris and ledisi coming up right now.

>> and by contributions to your ebs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: errol morris has made a career of exposing the foibles of those in power. his oscar-winning film "the fog of war exposed a role in the vietnam war. explainsnt documentary

and defends donald rumsfeld's decisions. "the unknown known" will be in select theaters next week. we start our conversation first with a clip from "the unknown known." >> what about all these so-called torture memos? >> there were what? one or two or three? they were not all of these so-called memos. they were mischaracterized as torture memos and they came not out of the bush administration per se. they came out of the u.s. department of justice blessed by the attorney general, the senior legal official of the united states of america, having been nominated by a president and confirmed by the senate. a little different cast i just put on it than the one you did.

i will chalk that one up. tavis: love that green there that the end. let me just ask you, this was the first question that came to my mind when i saw that rumsfeld had sat down with you. my first question was, why in the world if you are donald rumsfeld and you get a call from errol morris, why he would sit down with you? did he not see your mcnamara work? back in the day when you saw mike wallace coming, you ran in the other direction. what was in it for rumsfeld? is a completely unreflective individual. i don't think he thought about it. tavis: see what i mean? >> i don't think he thought about it. why not? he has done a zillion of them. 33 hours with your

camera lens trained on him, making him justify, explain, rationalize what he did, why he thent, what he wrote, and got out of him that he would do it again. you and i are in the same business. i just don't understand -- i am glad he did it the cause it is relevant in a lot of ways, but i am stuck on that one question. i don't know what he thought was in it for him. >> i asked, why are you talking to me? why are you doing this? his answer could be the answer to almost anything. it could be the answer to why we went to war in iraq. he said, that was a vicious question. he says, i will be darned if i know. overwhelming self-confidence -- vanity

overwhelming self-confidence. an unshakable belief in his own correctness, his own infallibility. your guess is as good as mine. tavis: as a filmmaker, what do you make of what you got of him on film? what is your read of it? >> he will say almost anything. he will contradict himself. he will say things that can be easily shown to be untrue. yet he never seems to notice. he never seems to be bothered by anything. ,e just goes on and on and on one of these crazy principles after another. ,he most disturbing of them absence of evidence as evidence of absence. sounds good. maybe. used to explain why we

haven't heard from intelligent beings somewhere else in the universe. foundecause we haven't direct evidence of their existence, it doesn't mean they aren't there. this to wmdnsplants in iraq. of evidence isn't evidence of absence. -- what?d as an excuse to go to war. a weapons inspector from the u.n. goes to iraq, goes to a place where he thinks he is going to find biological or chemical weapons. he finds nothing. is that absence of evidence? let me go back to your phrase, intelligent beings in the universe.

i say this not to demonize him, ,ot to cast dispersion on him and i would never put myself out as the smartest, most intelligent being in this universe. yet when i watch this, i kept coming back to the fact that this is the guy who was in charge. this was the secretary of defense. i don't know how this washington parlor game works. once you get into washington glitterati, that washington power macs, you can bounce from one president's administration to another. ,ou can go from nixon to afford bush to reagan. i get that. i watched your piece and i was just dumbfounded that this is the guy who was in charge.

again, i am not trying to demonize the guy. you were the one making the decisions? it just didn't -- >> rumsfeld is incredibly charming. he is well spoken. he is convincing. he was the front man for the war. he was the guy who stood up in all those pentagon press conferences. tavis: is that all it takes? to look good on camera and be well spoken and charming? is that it? the qualifications to be defense secretary are irrelevant? that is all it takes? >> i don't know. to me it is depressing, because i love this country. democracyink that our should produce more thoughtful people. tavis: i knew going into it that rumsfeld and i didn't agree on much of anything. >> not a surprise. want to bei

open-minded. i don't have a monopoly on the truth. i believe -- >> none of us do. tavis: i think there is the truth and the way to the truth. piece becauseyour i am open to hearing his explanations. that is when i fall out of my seat. when given the opportunity to explain what he did and why he did it and how he did it and the fact that he would do it again, i walk away thinking, i just -- i feel tongue-tied. i am flabbergasted at what i saw. or didn't see, as it were. frustrating, infuriating. the man who spends these 30

plus hours with him, it is exhausting. trying to figure out what is going on inside of his head -- could it be that a man so used to obvious gating, evading, mr. wrecking, just lost -- misdirecting, just lost reality? is there anything real left? i am not so sure. that is the mystery. sometimes i think of this as a horror movie. sometimes i think of it as a mystery. who is this man? what did he think he was doing? tavis: as wrong as robert mcnamara was, as many lives as were lost at his hand, over time , courtesy of your work, we get to see him come around. he does eventually rethink what

he did, why he did it. i don't get the sense that rumsfeld is ever going to have that moment. >> i think you will never have that moment. two really different individuals. they are opposites. agonizesflective, one over the decisions that he made and the lives lost because of those decisions. the other is completely self-satisfied, delighted with himself, absolutely convinced of his own correctness. tavis: and would do it again. deeply, deeply unreflective. he sees the iraq war as a success. the fact that we went to war

under false pretenses -- still a good thing. tavis: how is history going to regard him? now that what he says to you is a part of the history record, how is history going to regard donald rumsfeld? we regard vietnam. he was in the oval office when we pulled out of saigon. people clamoring onto the helicopters at the embassy. i asked him, what did you learn? he is in the oval office with gerald ford, henry kissinger. what did you learn? his answer -- some things work out. some things don't. that didn't. vietnam asook at

unnecessary, a terrible mistake that cost the lives of 58,000 americans and millions of people in southeast asia. , i don't know how history is going to view any of us. my guess is that we will see this recent episode in american history, maybe not exactly the same but in a similar way. tavis: as hopelessly inarticulate as i have been tonight, -- >> you have been fine. tavis: as inarticulate as i have been, i do think that it is worth you seeing. you will determine whether or not you come away with the same blank stare that i did. "the unknown known" in theaters

april 2 in los angeles and new york. then it rolls out across the country. i want to make sure i get a copy of this to put in my library. maybe in five years i will get what i didn't get the first time. >> by the way, i hate to contradict you but i think you did get it. tavis: if you say so. [laughter] good to see you. coming up, a conversation with ledisi. stay with us. tavis: eight time grammy nominated singer-songwriter ledisi has released her seventh cd called "the truth." she says it is all about embracing the new. we will find out what she means by that. first, let's hear a track from the new album. it is called "i blame you." ♪

tavis: you have a hit on your hands. sounds good. said ijump to what i wanted to get to first and foremost, the truth. ," youll a cd "the truth know you are setting yourself up. >> yes i am. tavis: the project is called the truth. ok. what are we telling the truth about?

is the honest truth about my relationships that i have encountered. the big latest one i had, it was hard. it was letting go. tavis: you just rolled your eyes. >> yes i did. tavis: did i see you roll your eyes? [laughter] >> i knew you were going to -- tavis: i told you this on radio, let me just rephrase this. i was so sorry in this case for the dude. i feel sorry for the dude who gets blasted on the cd. what about his side of the story? [laughter] >> there is always three sides to the story. tavis: but you get to do a record. he has everybody asking him, like heard that ledisi project. >> it is probably not like that.

he actually told me it was a great album. he loved it. we are still cool. tavis: what is the process you have to go through? >> on this one, it was scary. it was so open. but i have great people around me saying, what happens to you can appeal to someone else. how dare i take my gift and hide it and not share it with someone else who is out there hurting? i have always been like that from my independent recordings to being with the label. it is -- i don't know. it just works. this one was even more scary, because here i am unveiling part of myself that i never unveil. i'd usually hide behind a song or a relationship i have seen people have. this one is very personal. tavis: what is happening in your life that is giving you the freedom that comes with being

that transparent? >> i am older now, more mature. i am excepting the lane i am in. i am not competing with anyone or begging someone to love me. i feel like i am loved and i deserve to be where i am. i know what my calling is now. i have had great people, in my life, not just men, but women. that has lifted me to be the woman i am. i am a woman now and i am ok with that. i thought i knew what that was but part of that is being able to look in the mirror and dissect where all the pain comes from. i did a little bit of that, but now i am ok. once you are aware what is going on with you and you can fix it, it is freeing. tavis: i said a prayer for you a little while ago. because i saw you making that move from independent to label. i don't want to demonize labels but i have seen so many artists who push their best stuff out

when they don't have anyone telling them what to do and how to do it. labels are good in one way and they can be the death of an artist in other ways. finding label life? thankfully because you are out with a label and the stuff still sounds good. label because i came in saying, if i can't be myself, i don't want to do this. i would rather stay as an independent artist. for me, my mindset is still independent artist as i am with the label. myy know that i understand audience and myself and they stay out of my way. they know they are taking a risk with me. they were surprised to see me be so open and share my learning. they were just as shocked as the world was.

you really want to take a picture like this? i am like, yes i do. i want to celebrate my curves and i want my women to see this. for them, they are there with me. guiding me and helping as much as they can. labels aren't really doing well right now. i am an authentic artist. i still think of myself as independent and an artist -- i want to get every generation that i can. back to that come in a moment. we are not going to lose sight of your curves. i will get to that in a moment. i think i know what you meant by this, when you say that even with a label you still have the mindset of an independent artist. what do you mean by that? >> i am in touch with my audience. i too m on the street. i was at walmart saying, did you

get my album yet? i bought some for some fans, signed it. then more people came. she is hanging out in crenshaw. i posted it on facebook. i am out there thinking like an independent artist. i have to sell this. independent artists, the grind never ends. tavis: so, to your curves. you look great, by the way. anybody who has been a fan of yours for years can see the transformation. what brought that on? >> after letting go of the relationship -- tavis: it is always like that. as soon as they break up with you today get fine. >> i was fine before. tavis: i am going to regret that. can i do a do over? they break up with you they get finer. [laughter] that is what i was trying to say.

relationship, i decided to do a bucket list of things i have never done. i felt like it was so closed all the time. we had to keep private. i love that part but for me, i am -- that is not really made. i love to be vibrant and energetic and go on hikes. i had never been anywhere other than work related things. that year, i decided to do a hip-hop in heels class. i lovedon't know that hip-hop but i also like wearing my stilettos. tavis: nice shoes by the way. >> i wanted to do a class that i had been avoiding. hip-hop in heels. i went and the pounds just chatted off -- shedded off. the women were curvier than me and the confidence was so high. they were teaching me, and powering me. every week, we are in there

making it work. i started learning about the importance of food and what it should do for your body. why i emotionally eat and what i like when i am having that moment or distressed area and -- or distress. that is why the transformation came. the album is two songs away from being done. it wasn't about the album. tavis: do you actually do it in heels? >> seven inch heels. what you saw in my video, those boots are seven inch heels. even the producer is like, really? i did it. it gives me strength. tavis: as i saw your transformation -- you have always been good looking but you slimmed down. i thought about my friend, cedric the entertainer. he used to tell this joke about luther vandross and how he was trying to figure out what he liked -- they luther or little

luther. that, to ask whether or not the transformation has in changed to your ear, your sound, changed your flow, changed your style. small, itller, not so is still there. rock, i was girls so focused on the dancing. my good friend, roland, had to it reminded me, remember to sing. that is what people are expecting. point to make sure that i am singing the same. inside is the same person you have always known. that is what i know. tavis: she knows it and she knows it better than most. i say this with all due respect. i am happy for you.

to my mind, you are still on that list of the most underappreciated, undervalued, unheralded female artists of our time. i am always honored to have you on this program. if there is anything we can do to push your stuff out there, i want to do it. you want to add this one to your collection. it is called "the truth" by ledisi. you will not be disappointed when you get this one. that is our show for tonight. thanks for watching and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with shyima hall about her new autobiography entitled "hidden girl." that is next time. we will see you then.

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> ber:

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