tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with the real-life hero of hotel rwanda, paul rusesabagina. he saved millions of those during a genocide. condemned ase other countries did bite. it was through the gore with efforts of people like paul rusesabagina that many innocent lives were saved. we are glad you can join us. the conversation coming up right now. ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> 20 years ago, one of the worst mass slaughters of modern history began in rwanda. military massacred the hutu populations. in his left individuals to save innocent lives.

paul rusesabagina did that. he gave shelter to more than 1000 people in the hotel where he worked. his record -- his efforts inspired hotel rwanda. it is an honor, 20 years later to have you on this program. >> thank you. >> we all know of your heroic exploits 20 years ago. one of your friends has been a regular guest on this program. was heres ago, he because the opportunity to play you in the film "hotel rwanda." here is a clip. >> talk about the joy and the challenge of playing a real-life person while the person is still alive. >> there was a certain level of intimidation. [laughter] >> this guy is going to see it. >> he is going to see it and then to go in front of the camera? [laughter]

there was a level of concern with that, but i really thought -- did a greata job of personalizing a story. the idea of one million people many days isow more than we can fathom. you can understand the love that man has for his family and for his friends and wanting to protect himself and the people that he loves. talking to paul, i was very quickly put at ease. he is not some heroic 10 foot tall man who has got a cape on. he is a man. he is a devoted family man. i could play that. i'm a family man. he was really committed to what was right and what was good. he never looked at it as he was doing something extraordinary.

he was doing what was in front of him day-to-day. there was no planning, no plot beyond let me see if i can get through this one day. that is very playable. dayd day is very -- day to is very playable. >> this is hollywood. how truthful was the movie? did it get the real story out? >> it is a true story and telling what was going on during the genocide. "hoteld to a dennis icon rwanda" -- compared to a genocide, "hotel rwanda" is less violent. don playingr as you, did he meet your approval? >> definitely. don did a great job. we were ining me,

johannesburg, south africa. have breakfast, lunch, and dinner together. sometimes taste a glass of wine. [laughter] the way i did things that he perfectly performs as i would have done it if it were me. >> it was academy nominated. great actor. it has been 20 years since this genocide. cover thisnt to question too much, but what do you make of what you and your people had to endure? audienced tell the that unfortunately history repeats it self.

every history wants to teach us lessons. afterwards we study seeing people beaten. they are broken. they are thrown into containers and are dying there. their bodies are burned and ashes spread at the national parks. this is when we started seeing once again yesterday's victims now killing a camp of displaced people within the country, unarm ed people who are not threatening the government. yet we saw this camp that had thousands of hundreds of people being butchered with machine

guns on the ground and being killed with helicopter bombs from the air. this is when we started seeing many politicians, especially being killed half to death trying to get into the compound. we started seeing many people disappearing and sometimes throwing their cars to the border and pretending that these people are going to -- we hope that one day -- we saw the government cross the women, rapingg young girls. we saw it.

killinghe army according to reports. more than 7 million in that part of the world. yet all of this has been happening on our own watch. we stood there. we did not turn our backs. we closed our eyes and ears. we do not want to see so that we are not involved. >> any amount of violence in rwanda or any other place at hand of government is too much, but is what is happening in rwanda at the level of genocide? again, any violence perpetrated by the state is too much. genocide is a serious accusation. is what is happening in rwanda

acceptable or is what is happening in rwanda genocide still? >> in what happened in rwanda in days isring those 90 unacceptable. what happened before -- this is what the audience does not know -- a genocide is not something that comes out of nowhere. place at a given time . genocide takes place during a civil war. many were being killed. this is when we had more than one million people surrounding the capital city because they , fromed from their homes the regions.

they were moving slowly behind the regular army. the rebels were killing them. the genocide was the result of many massacres. those people are being killed because of -- according to a report, a report .as done , sick, people and more women, children, all of the week went to could not fight. we saw them being killed.

>> you do not believe that things in rwanda right now are any better than they were 20 years ago? becauseis the problem people who do not know rwanda, in rwanda, we always change dancers, but the music remains the same. if this was examined and studied by a qualified institution, it would be all but as a genocide. rwanda is more or less what a simmering, dormant volcano that could erupt anytime. rulers.of killing the majority. how would one pretend to tell the world that it is peace?

there is no peace. rwanda is silent. when we are silent -- hereat i am wrestling with -- and i'm not naïve in asking this because i know you have an answer for it -- what i am wrestling with though are the world leaders. world leaders who have celebrated rwanda leadership since this atrocity 20 years ago. i hear you telling me that according to the evidence that you have seen and others is that it is not much better. people have never sat down and explained what has been going on in rwanda. we didn't have an opportunity to sit down and talk about this. what was noticed is that after

repeating this many times on my own behalf to many world leaders because i have traveled the whole world trying to educate and to be the voice of the and message about what is going on in rwanda and what it has been through and why -- in july of 2012, we served the international community is .tarting from the united states we saw them stopping there in , but the direct aid which is given to the government. we saw the united states stopping the military aid to rwanda. we saw immediately the netherlands and germany and the united kingdom and sweden and many other countries stop their

direct aid to rwanda. to make it much more clear, recently we saw many countries diplomatsling their from their countries. this the united kingdom did. we saw sweden also doing so. so-calledwanda diplomats [indiscernible] we saw south africa taking the strong and serious being expelled just two weeks ago. >> you see certain countries starting to step up, which leads me to something i think the american public has heard say time and time again.

bill clinton has told me in a private conversation with him as he traveled to various places. he has told me this privately and has said this publicly. he is on the record saying that the worst mistake of his presidency was not moving quickly enough into rwanda. i think even his secretary of state had at times expressed regret that they did not move quickly enough on rwanda. when you look back at this genocide, what do you make of the world's leading nations, including ours who did not do anything? the nurses ofe of i'm one of the witnesses of the genocide. i was there. who after those ones do thethem abandoning us

dogs and the thief's and the gangsters, one of the ones who was still calling the international community. i was calling the white house. i was calling the united nations. i was quoting the peace corps. i knew what i was doing. , i wasey left rwanda seeing them. i wanted to shame them. today we are calling president clinton. , thee calling mr. blair u.k. prime minister. there is this guilt. they are the ones who were in government. because of that sense of guilt,

i think they are not yet through. they have been helping the rwanda president who is today the one who has killed as many killer ofe highest the 20th century. it is also writing his aim in the 21st. -- he is also writing his name in the 21st. >> we have had george w. bush sends him and now barack obama. -- since then and now barack obama. >> i would say that the u.s. government so far has not yet done much. >> we haven't done much? >> you have not done much.

we saw president clinton apologizing with his sense of guilt, excusing himself in a weak position. we saw president bush -- actually, he did a lot. he listened to our messages. we had an opportunity to meet with him. myself, i met with him twice. in that time when we brought the rwanda situation to the table and talked about it, what followed was the fact that the president of rwanda was no more received at the white house that he used to be received with a red carpet. that changed. it was barack obama in which the situation -- we haven't seen a lot of things changing.

the situation, the u.s. government has not really changed that much. role of thebout the responsibility of international community. i want to go straightaway inside rwanda and get your sense of what agency, with power, what opportunity the rwanda people have to exercise their right to self-determination? i know the leaders of the country, you have major issues with. talk to me about the people and their right to self-determination. >> rwanda has a lot of problems. one of those problems is the lack of political space. if you go online and see how the president of the political space time he says the political space is fully occupied. he occupies it with his people. i'm quoting him.

space.s no political human rights has been abused everyday. we have seen that there is no freedom of speech. there is no freedom of media in that country. in that country, you have a winner. after the genocide -- the tutsi side won the war. he also took the power without sharing. then you have a loser. the losers have lost everything. they have lost power. they are not even involved. others are humiliated. all of that children from generations to generations are supposed to come and lay down in

front of tutsi children and beg pardon even if they did not do anything wrong. they have to beg pardon for their parents. whowanda, you have tutsi committed war crimes, who committed crimes against humanity who are now trying hutu who committed genocide. how can you in the name of war criminal try to convict the genocide? killer? any good >> back to the movie "hotel rwanda" that so many americans had a chance to see to better understand at least on film what your story and that of your country was. we saw and felt connection to

you and your immediate family because of the film. give me a sense of how your family's life has changed in the last 50 years. i assume you're not hanging out in rolando these days the way you're talking to me. i know you would not be welcome inside rwanda. obviously you're not living there anymore. [laughter] since 1994, my whole life has completely changed. the rwanda genocide change me completely. in the beginning i would have stayed in rwanda for two years. the general manager of the company, the hotel. assassinated. 1996.as in september when i escaped, i was exiled.

in exile i had nothing to do. like to stand and be lazy without doing anything. i was driving a cab. from there, i changed my job. i opened a trucking company. in the meantime, my children, my daughters got married. my two daughters are in belgium. , got involved in hotel rwanda making the movie. following the film, traveling the world talking about the rwanda genocide. >> through your foundation. >> through my foundation and through my speaking agency. i have been a busy person for the last couple of years.

for the last 20 years, always busy. >> the usual hopeful about your country? -- do you feel hopeful about your country? >> i believe we can always make give up. never well, this is it. let me give up. we never give up. day whether anyone wants it or not, i will be back in rwanda. >> you do want to go back? south north, home is best. >> i like that. [laughter]

paul's book came out some time ago. it is from penguin. it is called an ordinary man. has done extraordinary things. the book is called "an ordinary man" by paul rusesabagina. it is so wonderful for me to meet you. thank you for the book. thank you for coming on the show. >> thank you. my pleasure. >> that is our show for tonight. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with sarah lewis and amos lee. ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pb >> be more.

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