tavis: good evening. from los angeles, i am tavis smiley. tonight, a conversation with sociologist katherine newman about her new book that takes a deep dive into the south africa of today. 20 years after the first free elections were held in that country, ushering a new era of democracy. after freedom, the rise of the postapartheid generation in democratic south africa. and return to a conversation about histylez bacon new compilation album.

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. tavis: 20 years after the first free elections were held in south africa, the country still a cold -- struggles with economic disparities. freedomok titled "after : the rise of the postapartheid generation in democratic south

africa post quote delves into africa" delves into it. a professor and former dean at johns hopkins university has written widely on poverty and the working poor. >> delighted to be here. tavis: i will jump to the text in a second. what do you make of south africa? >> it is a democracy and that matters. you can say that about every country -- you can't say that about every country to the north of them. it is a very troubled country but is a beacon of human rights and rule of law. how does a country divided by race also become divided by class?

did very well including a lot of black africans. new are by far and the ones. those class divisions really matter now and it isn't just race anymore. best of times and the worst of times if i can borrow a phrase. >> the generation i was interested in in this book were children when apartheid fell apart. of faith in the ruling party of the anc and are looking for an alternative. but they are looking for that alternative and they do believe in the future of their country. that's true whether they are white, colored, or black. they are committed to the country's future in very troubled by its presence.

there were decades of deprivation. it is obvious enough but it ought to be made more and more often, it has only been 20 years. this moreen doing than 20 years and we still don't have it right on race, class, gender. we still have our own issues. democracy isn't easy. these humongous expectations and aspirations. if you're trying to write the story too soon? >> it was worth telling what

part of the story we could see. we do have to remember a mountain of problems. a vast majority were stuck in labor camp's. it took an enormous amount of time and an enormous amount of progress has been made. they have a lot to be proud of but there is such a long way to go. depending on if you are the older generation that has seen the progress or the younger generation, it is a country that means different things to different people. presence,dela's very it means so many things on so many levels. about, if youngst have any, a south africa post m andela.

no obvious successor that carries the moral authority that he had or the shining beacon of certainty about the future and how it should be conducted. it is very much searching for a way forward. the anc is no longer as popular as it used to be. they look at the failed states to the north, look at zimbabwe. and whether white and black people really worry about that. are they capable of actually doing very much? relative to other parts of africa, they are very fortunate. i don't want to try to critique the two presidents , nobody cana

measure up to what he was. >> it feels very good, to be honest. love. critique him and i think in general, they feel that there isn't anybody that's holding on to the same moral compass he had. a sense of where you is headed and where he thought the country should go. theiracial is him and strong tons of nationalism. millions of people that have seen very little.

the country deeply divided without a strong sense of leadership to follow. tavis: let me come straight ahead to it. this notion of what the alternative is beyond the anc> . andou are a south african you believe in voting and exercising your right to vote, what are the options. like the democratic an option.as in the scary thing is, they don't see much of an alternative or they see this as a very credible positive right now. there are not too many possibilities and that is scaring people. there is a strong sense that there's got to be a way forward. it is the only country in the

southern region where there is any possibility for the kind of reconstruction that needs to be done. you can't point to a really good solution or leaders that people have. it may take an entirely new that comes at this with an entirely new dialogue. thought orhere no credence in the future given to the creation of another party that black south africans feel serves them and has a name different than anc? >> the leading contender was a democratic alliance for a while. it suffers from a tainted past. it tries to reach out to black leadership and it lasts for about three weeks and it all falls apart. what you're seeing instead is people defecting by not voting. voting rate was beyond

anything we have seen in the u.s.. they really treasure that right. people are sort of sitting it out. it shocked the older generation and gave everything for the right to vote. i don't feel such strong allegiance to the people. i see them taking our money and running with it. i don't see anybody fighting for the common man. what about these bread and butter issues in ? jobs, education, roads. do we make of the progress or lack thereof on those issues? >> i think there has been an extra neri amount of progress and so much left to be done.

government to build homes. and in townships, i have people that have to leave these woodcuts. they are at risk of being assaulted on the way. for them, there is a very long way to go. the bread and butter issues matter. are in the mining sector. demonizedon't mean to the anc, but it reminds me of my ownsition -- assessment -- that black folks have been in this country in a long time. ignored by one party, taken for granted by the other party.

that is pretty much what you said. the anc really knows that they are not going anywhere. so how do they get pushed to do ?etter >> if strikes and riots are leverage, it is the main weapon being used right now. outrage, that matters. international standards matters. there is a sense of push their. they really do care about these issues. it is a movable mountain. going to south africa for the anniversary, i take it that all things considered, it will be a moment of huge celebrations

inside the country. and moment of celebration reflection. when we compare south africa to the countries immediately north of it, thousands of refugees seeking just the right to live, they have been through her rent is so wars. there is a sense that south africa did become a democratic society. e? has a perfect democracy writtenafter freedom" by dr. katherine s newman. good to have you on the program. up, composer with his new cd the rumi symphony project. stay with us.

tavis: without question, music unites people, breaking down barriers. the irani and born composer , headlininghat carnegie hall. thelatest cd is titled, rumi symphony project. it features grammy-winning musicians and engineers from all over the world. tell me about this project and how it came to be. >> i will move to the united states from iran and it has been 10 years. it has been a cycle of mentality. tavis: what about these four

different chapters echo >> the first cycle of my project, it is the main number alone project that i am told is the first cycle. i have different goals and one of the main ways to bring the music of the stand west together. integrationo create of these cultures together. about persianking music. i think it is a great idea to bring the best of two together and create something new. evolved in nearly 600 years. has remained the way it has for thousands of years.

creating something new that can relate to people from all over rather than just one geographic country or map. this is my phrase, not yours. how much pushing the envelope has to do with not wanting to be boxed in? the new york times i think said it first. icon in his own right. what innovating and pushing the has been not wanting to be boxed in? >> i don't know how to answer your question.

he is the first person that sang . , i grew up do that in a family where my father was a person with so many ideas. it helps me have a vision to create and open boundaries. it comes from the family. your father must have first exposed you to the poetry, certainly. -- it is your

experience with it. what is the takeaway for you? >> i don't know what i should call him. it's so amazing. is hard for us to understand and truly observed. me comingintroduced from a kurdish family in iran. they are special and has been a significant part of my life since the moment i opened my eyes not only through my father, my grandparents, through all of these. it is the most important thing in my life that gave me some

sort of a vision. there is endless opportunities. tavis: when one thinks of iran, someone thinks of food, culture, music. and also politics. as an artist, how have you decided how you walk that line of your artistry and the politics that take place in your native country? really makes me sad sometimes that iran is such an unknown country to the world. iran is an amazing country. the most hospitable people. we have the safest country in the world. we have four seasons.

most people think iran is very warm. iranians are amazing people and unfortunately, after the maybetion, media have, .nterpreted -- misinterpreted i'm not saying there's no issue. we always have problems in any country. a very interesting country. our music is still unknown to the world. i would love to one day be able to show another side of iran to

the world. politics, it's inevitable. i am dealing with politics. aboutthe music that talks peace, love, unity. it could be another side of politics because it is unity. hope, that this can bring that side of iran to the future as well. >> you think music is so pregnant with the power to do well? >> absolutely. nothing else has that sort of power. know that the existence has created these vibrations. the vibration is sound and is music.

it is the most powerful instrument that we can have. no matter where you're from, if you hear music that touches your heart, you are touched. if i bring you a painting if you don't have the knowledge about paintings, you may not connect. touch that if you one cord, it's done. tavis: i see you have your instrument with you. i suspect you don't leave home without it. for those that have never seen one of these, will you give us a quick lesson? >> one of the most famous persian instruments, the sitar which is the mother of this

instrument. since i have grown up, i wanted to create something different. opposite the music that the instrument developed and evolved over hundreds of years. the instrument remains the same. since i was playing the instrument, i wanted to do something different with it. i always wanted to bring change. for the first time, i am sold on this instrument that is totally changing the concept of the instrument with the technique. i did that recording and i did that solo. it is not fully allowing me to do what i want. issues onsily see the

how to involve them. now this instrument can help a rainy and music to bring more harmony to the music rather than the monophonic sounds. i can do harmony with it. it will help the future generations. tavis: it is a gorgeous piece. it is very special. it >> this is the root of the pine. this is a beautiful instrument. tavis: we will get used to

seeing it, courtesy of you. the symphony project unfold. add this to your collection. at that because you will you the name many more times in the future. good to have you on the program. that's our show for tonight. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with six-time grammy-winning rock drummer and now composer stewart copeland. it that is next time, we will see you then.

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. pbs. >> be more. pbs.

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