good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. tonight, first a conversation about environmental justice with dr. carolyn finney, assistant plo fessor of environmental science, policy and management at uc berkeley. she is the author of a new5af b titled "black faces, white spaces," reimagining the relationship of african-americans to the great outdoors. then we'll pivot to a conversation i had a while back with james garner, who died over the weekend at the age of 86. his career spanned more than 50 years. i had the honor of talking with this very private man, who actually disliked media attention of any kind, back in 2004 for the very first year of this program. we're glad you can join us with a conversation with dr. carolyn finney and a reprise of our conversation with james garner, coming up right now.

♪ ♪ >> a recent survey commission said by the national parks service showed that only 7% of

visitors to the parks center are african-americans. latinos also underrepresented. dr. carolyn finney explores this disconnect in an important new book called "black faces, white spaces," reimagining the relationship of african-americans to the great outdoors, which combines environmental history with cultural and race studies to give us a critical insight into why this has occurred and what we can do about changing it. dr. finney, it's an honor to have you on this program. let me start by asking why these numbers for blacks and latinos at the national parks are so abysmal. >> oh, my gosh. well, we could talk about this from a whole lot of different angles, right? the first thing i want to say is that numbers don't tell you everything. numbers are very particular way of quantifying something. and so we don't see blacks and latino people at the parks. that doesn't mean that black people don't have a relationship with the environment. >> right. >> i think there's a number of different reasons for this.

i think part of it is historical. we look at the issue of slavery and segregation and red lining and racial profiling and all the ways within which black people have been kind of marginalized in the larger story about who this country is and who gets to participate in building that story. the parks are part of that story, right? the parks are actualitilily acty essential to that story, to show this is who we are as americans. but black people didn't get to participate, have access to be part of the creation of the parks back in the beginning. part of it for me is history around that. part of it has to do with who we see in the media. when we see anything to do with the parks and environment, who do we see? who don't we see? and when we do see black or brown people, what are they doing? when i think about leadership, who gets to make decisions about how these spaces should be used, who gets to engage the in parks.

who do we see when we go to the places? who are the rangers? who are the superintendents? i think a lot about the interpretation, the stories we tell of these places. this is changing and improving, so i want to be very careful not to diminish the work that people are doing to expand the story of who we are. but based on so many people i have talked to around the country, who have amazing stories, black people about their relationship to the environment and their ideas and creativity, we don't hear a lot about those stories. part of that gets translated into black people aren't engaged with the environment, black people don't care. and i want to cut that myth off there, because i said there's not true at all. >> let me throw a curve ball at you. why does this even matter? if black people and brown people don't want to go to the parks, who cares? why does it matter? >> well, ok. so part of it for me is beyond just going to the parks. i started this project, it was a personal project.

i talk about my parents, who took care of an estate about half an hour outside of new york city. they took care of that estate for 50 years. they weren't the owners of that estate. it belonged to a very wealthy jewish family. i grew up on that estate. and after 50 years, they had to leave that estate. my parents got old and couldn't care for it anymore. they miss that estate. my father has been depressed for a good, i would say, 10 years about missing that land. it got me thinking about issues of ownership. like whose ownership and experience counts. that estate got bought up by a new owner. he decided to have a conservation easement placed on that land. what that means is that land in perpetuity can't have any new buildings on it. which is wonderful. a letter went out to all the neighbors. it's a very wealthy white neighborhood. when i read a copy that letter, i'm looking in there, and i'm not seeing anything thanking my parents, who actually cared for that land 24 hours a day, seven days a week, for 50 years.

and it started me thinking about all the people in this country who care for land, who work on land, who are engaged with natural resources, who we don't hear about, and we have a history of that. that for me is why it matters. it also matters because people talk about the changing demographics in this country. and that's been coming for some time. when we think about environmental sustainability, if we do not have everybody onboard, it's going to matter because these are the people that are going to be running the country, who are going to be running these organizations, that are going to be running the parks and telling the story. we've got to have everybody's story onboard. so for me, that's why it matters. >> one of the things that's fascinating for me to your earlier point, that numbers don't always tell the full complexity of the story -- >> that's right. >> i used to and still do from time to time, but i used to work out in a park here in los angeles. and these numbers never

resonated with me, the numbers suggesting that blacks and browns don't use the parks because all i saw was latinos and negroes at the park all the time. and one of the reasons why i saw them there, i came to appreciate and understand, is because it's the last open space that black and brown people of a certain income level can afford to use. so the reason why you may not see black and brown folk at the national parks, it takes money to get there. but the local parks in cities and towns all across this country, i find, you know, here in l.a. and places i've been, because i like to run outdoors, i find that blacks and browns do use these spaces because they can't afford to do much of anything else, so that raises another question. two questions. one, to what extent is poverty connected to this issue? number one. >> yes. >> and number two, they may not be using the national parks, but am i right about the fact that around the country we're using the spaces available to all of us? >> yes, i would say that you are right to the second question

first. i never went to a national park until i was in my late 30s, but i had a relationship to being in the outdoors. i was a girl scout. my dad worked outdoors every day. we went to the local state park for picnics at the local beach for other families and my cousins. that's how we hung out. we didn't need to go to the national parks to have an actual relationship with the environment. so part of it is the people who are in position of power, in early i can't see us there doing the things we do, whether it's having barbecues or fishing or just hanging out. we're often not seen, even though we've always been there. i think the issue of poverty is connected partially for the reason that you say, that to go to places like the grand canyon if you don't live right down the street -- >> it ain't easy. >> that's right, it ain't easy getting to mt. rushmore or any of these other big beautiful national parks and beautiful spaces. part of it is about how much

money you have in your pocket. but part of it is also about infrastructure. i lived in miami for a year, and i lived about an hour away from the everglades national park, biscayne national park, and big cypress national preserve. to get to any of those places if you live in miami, you need a car. and a lot of working class folks don't have a car. there was also very the public transportation. so, yes, part of it is about poverty. but we live in a larger system, in a larger set of structure. part of it is also about the cities and the states that we live in, and their concern and care for all of us. >> the link between poverty is well documented. people who live in poverty don't have access to transportation. >> but it doesn't mean we don't have a relationship with nature or the environment. because we all do. my belief is we all have a story and a connection, but those stories aren't always valued or put front in center. >> but let's just be politically incorrect, i can handle that and obviously you can too. part of the fact is we have always had a connection to the

land. but for many of us, that land has been stripped from us, taken away from us. you can talk red folk and black folk and brown folks. so the very people we're talking about who don't use these natural spaces who we want to suggest don't have a relationship to the environment, one, that's not true. but number two, let's just tell the truth. somebody abridged that relationship by stealing what they did at one time. >> yes. you said it. you said it just that way. i talk about whether it's the 400,000 acres of land that were originally given to freed enslaved africans and then taken away, whether it's the native people that had to be moved away from land for the homestead act to make sense. >> black farmers are now almost invisible. >> it's over -- this is part of the legacy of who we are and our issues of land and ownership and connection. one of the things that's most -- my father is going to watch this, and, dad, i apologize, but i have to say this.

that i know that it's most difficult for my father is that he had no land to hand down to his children. and he talks about this all the time. and even though over and over again i say, but what you've given myself and my brothers is so far above and beyond, but it is embedded in his mind that land is everything. and being able to hand that down is a really important part of being able to extend not only african-american culture but also to keep the family connected. >> how do we address this? >> yeah. >> and i'm asking a question that has two parts to it. when i say how do we address it, i mean the structures, the politic, the system, those people. and then how do we address this issue. that is, those of us who are, for whatever reasons, being disconnected from these spaces. >> part of it is i think we have to continually show up in the spaces and be true to who we are and tell our story. we build support. we have community. we have people out there. we learn how to -- i tell people you have to be willing to take a risk, a risk to gain. and understand that if you come

forward and you're challenging the powers that be, you're saying, hey, this isn't working for all of us anymore, this has to change. and i want to say that i actually have empathy for the powers that be, because at the end of the day, they're people and they're afraid of losing relevancy and losing power. but at the end of the day, we all have to be at the table. the thing that i always say, black people, we have agency. and what i mean by that is, we can make choices. we aren't always able to make the same choices as everyone else, but no one has taken away my agency and my ability to make up my mind about who i am, how i want to be in this space, and how i want to tell my story. this is something that we can continually do. and we have to be willing to take risks to challenge that. one of the things i talked to a young black woman at one of the historical black colleges in tennessee. and one of the things she said to me, i'm so frustrated with my black brothers and sisters because i'm recycling and doing these things that are considered environmental, and they'll tell me that's a white thing to do. no one is telling us to think that way.

it's that those places that are difficult, that i feel like i understand and empathize with, but we have to change that game. and maybe recognize that, yeah, you know what? our grandmothers were recycling way before it got popular. we have to find a way to make a connection to these stories and who we are. >> i think you're right about that. and my time is up. i think you're right about that, but i also think that there's a burden that the environmental movement bears that they quite frankly are failing at. and i get in trouble when i say it, but it's the truth, they are failing at their outreach to these broader communities. and they're comfortable with the leadership that they do have, and that's part of the problem, number one. >> yes. >> and the other problem is that quite frankly not enough people care about the environmental racism that too many people of color are subjected to. nobody cares that the black and brown people live next to a toxic dump, and nobody cares that one in three children in harlem has asthma. those issues seem not to matter. but i digress. it's fascinating conversation, and i'm glad you're in this space doing the work. the book by professor carolyn

finney is called "black faces, white spaces," reimagining the relationship of african-americans to the great outdoors. and i might add and others. it's a wonderful piece of work that will challenge you to reexaminin the assumptions you have about this topic. and i'm honored to have had you on the program. coming up, my 2004 conversation -- that was the first year this program ever existed, my 2004 conversation with one of the country's most beloved actors, james garner, who passed away over the weekend. stay with us. ♪ james garner's career spanned more than 50 years, starting with maverick, which made him a star, and then fiels fiels. but he was also in a lot of great movies like "the notebook." i had the honor of speaking with james garner back in 2004 just before "the notebook" was set to open.

you have had such a wonderful career, almost 50 years in this business. and there's a lot i want to talk to you about, but i would be remiss if i didn't start with "the notebook." and i have trouble trying to figure out how to describe what a movie is, to share with the audience what the movie is, without giving too much of it away. and on those occasions where i don't think i can do a good job, i yield to the star. >> oh, i don't know. i don't know what kind of job i can do either. it's really a beautiful, beautiful love story. and of course it's complicated early. it goes from teenage to old age. and it's love found, love lost, love found, love lost. and it's just as touching a love story as i've seen in many, many years. and i'm so proud of it. proud to be in it.

but it has the complication near the end. she has alzheimer's after they finally get together and get married and whatever. and she has alzheimer's. she writes this notebook and makes me promise to read it to her every day so she doesn't forget. and that's what i do, i do a lot of reading. >> i'm fascinated by your playing this particular character, because with regard to love found, love lost, love found, love lost, i don't know that you can relate to that in part because you've been married to the same woman, lois, for 48 years. >> yeah. as i told you earlier, we think it's going to work. [ laughter ] >> at 48 years, you think it might work? >> yeah, yeah. >> what's made it work for almost 50 years? >> well -- >> they say these hollywood marriages, these things in hollywood never work. marriages. i think they want to legitimize having affairs.

>> whoa. ok. >> well, that's what it looks like. you're married a month. and then your best friend takes ov over. they're all going with the same women and marrying the same women and then it's all over. no. i don't think young people today want to commit. and when you get married, you make a commitment to that person. and they say, you know, until death do us part. a lot of them don't even get to the d in death. but the secret, i think, to a long marriage is respect. you have to respect your partner. you have to think of them in almost everything you do. as how it will affect them. you know, i've had chances to go crazy, you know, and you've got to think, well, what's that going to do to lois, you know? and so you say, no, i'm not going to do that. and so, anyway, respect and commitment. >> indulge me if you will, i

beg, on some of these questions because i'm fascinated to talk to a legend. and there's so many things you've covered and done in your career that i want to ask you about, so i'm going to make the best use of this time. looking back on it now, you played as i mentioned earlier two characters that made you world famous, "maverick" and "the rockford files." is it a good thing or a bad thing to have a character that you are so associated with that it makes it -- you know where i'm going with it. >> i have a good idea. i have been very fortunate, and of course it was my own decision, to -- i started in television. i did a couple of movies while i was doing that. i did "si nara" and a couple of other movies. but then after i did the television, i moved to movies during the '60s. then back to television in the '70s. then back to movies and off and on television movies in the '80s and '90s, and now i'm back to

television with "8 simple rules" plus throwing in a movie or two. and this is a pretty good movie. i don't usually do that. i don't usually come out and say, this is a really good movie. i didn't do that for -- oh, i don't remember. >> you don't usually do interviews. that's why i'm glad to have you here. >> i don't like to do interviews. >> a few more minutes and i'll let you go. >> well, my wife says, you'll do him because he's great. >> you tell your wife i said thank you. you served in a war, were decorated with a purple heart a couple of times as a result of fighting in that war. take me back to those days, and then kind of juxtapose if you can what you think of this war that we are in today. >> well, i wanted to get in world war ii. when i was 16, the day i was 16, i joined the merchant marines because that's one of the few things i could do at my age. >> you kind of fibbed about your age as i recall. >> no, i didn't fib it.

because at 16, if you had your parents' permission -- >> you could get in. ok. >> and i got in the merchant marines. and then i found out this country boy that had never been to sea -- >> oklahoma? >> yeah. did not like the ocean very well. >> you liked being on land, huh? >> we didn't get along too well. i think i lost 35 pounds onboard ship just because i couldn't keep anything down. but i did very little of that. and then i went back to school, high school. and then i was the national guard in about '48, i think it was. and i tore up a knee. doing maneuvers. and so they gave me a medical discharge. and then i went and had the knee operated on. the government should have paid for it, but they didn't, because i wanted to play high school ball again. and then in 1950, they drafted me.

and i told the doctor, i said, hey, doc, what about my knee? he said what about it? i said well, they operated on it. he said, well, they must have fixed it. next. so i went over as cannon fodder into korea. they just needed people to stuff up the gap. we were in first group of replacements over there. anyway, you learn a healthy respect for war. and i'm not happy with what's going on today. you know, our sterling president, i shouldn't get into this, everybody's going to kill me, but i'm not happy with him. if he had ever been in a war, he wouldn't have been so eager to send other people into war. and it's like a christian crusade over there. i mean, he's having his own crusades. you don't mess with the middle east. i mean, those people -- they do

it different. they think different. that's why they hate us so much, you know. and they have always hated -- since the crusades they hated whites or whatever you want to call it, the christians coming in there and trying to change their religion. and, you know, i just think it's terrible. what's happening. >> you're confirming for me what i've heard from any number of people who have known you for years and what i've read about you, is that you're very, very politically astute. i'm told that over the years your friends have ftried to encourage you to run. we have a governor here in california that was an actor. you played a politician for a while. the one your ex-wife, you took over her place on the city council. short-lived tv series. you don't even remember it. >> well, when they are that short-lived, i don't want to remember them. >> lois is watching, your wife.

she knows what i'm talking about. but why you resisted all these years becoming politically involved, even though you love this stuff and you know it very well, obviously. >> well, i'm not that well informed, but i -- i have had a chance in 1962 or '3 they wanted me to run for congress, for the 27th district. on the republican ticket. and they called my business manager, and he kind of giggled and said, well, he's out on location. i'll get back to you. and of course he called me, and we laughed, and then he called them back and said, no, mr. garner doesn't want to do that because he's a democrat. [ laughter ] >> but it told me something about the whole electoral process is that they don't care what you do, think, or if they think you can win the election. and the reason they chose me for -- steve allen was the opposition. and i'd beaten him in the ratings. so therefore, i would have beat him in an election, you know.

but that's the way they think. they don't care really what you think or do. and that's politics. >> my time with you is so tight and so limited. i didn't get a chance to talk about your love from race cars. i'm from indianapolis. >> are you? i was just there a couple of weeks ago. >> you know the 500 very well. let me close with this question. it's very clear with all due respect to this wonderful new project you have out "the notebook" and your wonderful work on "8 simple rules," you don't have to work every day. why are you still getting up and going to work every day? >> because my wife gets up and goes shopping. [ laughter ] >> i can't end on a better note. mrs. lois, you encouraged him to come and do this, so you take that in the spirit of love that he offered it. >> before we get off of the electoral process, they wanted me to run for governor about eight years ago. and i didn't want to do it. i wasn't going to get in with that -- >> now you wish you had. >> no, no, no. >> hey, arnold won. >> i think i could have won

easy, but i don't think they ought to have somebody like me or schwarzenegger as governor. it's no way to run a state. >> james garner died this weekend here in los angeles at the age of 86. he was truly one of a kind, and his legacy will live on in his television and his movie roles. that's our show for tonight. thanks for watching. and as always, keep the faith. for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> hi, i'm tavis smiley. next time, a visit with max brooks and singer marsha ambrosius will perform. that's next time. we'll see you then. ♪

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