good evening, tonight a conversation with mantle how that weiner, creator of "mad men" one of the most influential tv series of the last decade. "mad men" wraps the final season this sunday night. glad you've joined us for a conversation with matthew weiner coming up, right now. and by contributions to your

pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. "mad men" is one of those seminal series that generated intention debates about what its main kashgt don draper to do has to say about ourselves. don is an every man. a hero who is an anti-hero. look at the scene from the first half of the final season of "mad men" and then i'm going to ask mr. weiner what he means by that. >> did you park your white horse outside? spare me the suspense and tell me what your save the day plan is. >> i don't have anything yet. the idea i had wasn't great. >> it wasn't great. it was terrible. i want to hear the real one, or

are you just going to pull it out during the presentation? >> this idea is good. i think question get the client to buy t. no, you don't. or you wouldn't have questioned it. >> i'm going to do whatever you say. >> so you're going to pitch the hell out of my [ muted ] idea and i'm going to fail? >> peggy, i'm here to help you do whatever you want to do. >> well, how am i supposed to know? >> that's a tough one. >> you love this. >> not really. >> all right. glad to have you back. >> i'm glad to be here, always. >> yeah. you want to start by unpacking what you meant by that comment about mr. draper? >> i don't usually refer to him as an anti-hero. sort of talking about the fact that, you know, anti-hero gets used a lot to mean hoop the character your following all of these negative qualities? i just don't judge him. i feel like he's -- my point of

view on him is that whether you like it or not you're looking in the mirror on some level in terms of just knowing why people do thing, and he's got -- i think what he had to say about -- it's a lack of judgment. it's the fact that people behave in a certain way. everybody has a reason why they behave that way. it doesn't make them good or bad. he's very virtuous situationally. >> situationally, not in a word, i think these trying. to be -- i mean, there's no drama without the guy doing bad things. that's like any character. there's got to be conflict or have bad things done to them. that's part of the part that's different, but i always feel like it's hard to be a person. and that's kind of my perspective on all the characters in the show. >> you always give me something to think about and i always steal a great line for you. tonight you've already done it this early in the conversation. start referring to myself as virtuous situationally. [ laughter ]

i am virtuous situationally. >> we all are. god, you know? that's what the ten commandments are about. you wouldn't need them if everybody would behave great all the time. >> we all are but how can a character be as complex at draper and we not judge the guy? >> you know a lot of that is casting. >> yeah. >> it really is. you can say whatever you want. i had a litmus test casting the pilot and given the luxury by amc picking someone not famous yet and i knew whatever they would be, that character, wouldn't have previous associations or anything. but what i had, my test at the end of it when it got down to a couple of guys, at the end of the pilot, spoiler alert, you find out that don is married. and i said, am i going to hate this guy? when i find that out? am i going to think he's ungrateful, a jerk, a cad. all of these other things, and jon hamm has a quality that really -- there's a natural integrity there and a conscience, and maybe he feels bad, or whatever else, it made

it less -- made it, that he wasn't a jerk. that he was a real person. i think, you know, back to the ten commandments. people do these thing, and there's repentance, there is prayer, all of these things can you can do in your life. apologizing, and there's a journey to be a better person, but i think his awareness of the damage that he's doing and the damage that was done to him and his desire to sort of make it right over and over and over again is kind of what saves him. and jon projects that. it's a chemical. i had nothing to do with that. >> speaking of what jon projects, as don. you are the guy behind the pen, obviously. you could have written him in a way, all kinds of characters who have gone on to be iconic. j.r. ewing. we end up hating and he plays the role extremely well. you could have written don in a way that made us like this guy less. >> ah -- yeah. you know, i don't think about what's likable. >> yeah. >> i mean, jon, you know -- jon has more of a -- jon added a lot

of the temperament to the character. so like his sort of like explosive temper or his desire -- a lot of business confrontation scenes were always meant to be confrontational. jon added like an athlete stuffing somebody's face in it. i didn't write that. there's good and bad with that. when you have a show like this that doesn't have huge plot points and you get to find out why people are doing things and the difference between the way we are when we're with other people and when we're alone, so much of the show is about privacy, how people behave when their alone and telling one person one thing and another another, you kind of start to guess this understanding. the fact people root for him and still are interested in him on some level, that, you know, i don't know what to tell you. it's been fascinating for me, that's human nature. >> yeah. >> because i think they're nicer to don than they actually are to other people in their lives. >> yeah. [ laughter ] >> well, he's a hand some guy. that counts for something. just greatness, too.

>> that's the sad truth. a big part of it. >> with all due respect to the, i mean, they're wonderful actors. you obviously, your team, cast this series beautifully. >> oh, thank you. >> and you cast it with some great actors we've all come to love now. >> thank you. >> i was thinking in advance of our conversation a day or so ago, again i don't want to take anything away from them. i know how modest you are about this. again, good actors. i don't want to hate on anybody. set this up properly, but you have given these people, i don't want to overstate it and say you've given them careers but you put them on a map, on the map, in a way that they had not been regarded before. and i mean, you really have given these people you know, some space to -- show their ways? >> they've given me a lot too. i used to wake up in the first season say what if i didn't cast jon hamm? this would be over. it's a two-way street and i'm

just not being modest. it is. you pick the wrong person, you're done. the thing that's great for me all were working actors when i met them and i -- i hate that sort of prejudice against credit and inexperience and, you know, god forbid you do something that fails and all of the sudden no one wants anything to do with you. i like experienced people. and they all had very long resumes and had been working quite a bit, just hadn't had that thing that -- no one saw them as the meaner could carry it or be important. christina hendricks, played joan. she took this job and her manager fired her. they're like, what are you doing? why are you doing this? that kind of risktaking with a long resume of people who had been in the jobs. you just get people who make it right away don't always behave when they get it. i think that's the biggest, you know -- it's a truism, i mean, it just is. there's something about them being adults. it's not all age. elisabeth moss plays peggy.

child actors. elizabeth's resume is longer than anyone's on the show. acting since she was 3. really acting. to me what's exciting, they are known for these parts and don't they don't have the other associations but they have just grown so much. i just see. we got make them change over time and not change. part of my dream starting the show, if i get to do the whole decade, how amazing it will be to just -- the pilot was all about this period is not what you think. it's darker. peopler more like people are now. they're not so virtuous, not -- it's not ward cleaver. it's not "leave it to beaver." these are real people that come from a dark place, just like all people have challenge, but you still will look back on that pilot and be nostalgic saying, look how simple it was? >> you know? it's cool. >> i was thinking the other night, again is sometimes, it's things just happen that out of your control, but sometimes good things, though. >> sure. >> i was thinking the other

night about the brilliant way, artistically brilliant way in your writing you have covered the tumult of the year, the social, political and economic tumult of the years that you covered, and i was thinking how well you've done that, but i also found myself the other night situating it in the here and the now, which is to say, i think about elizabeth and the character she plays and her interaction with hamm's character in the context of abramson fired at the "new york times" and what it says about women and -- >> i do. i understand it. a lot has changed, a lot hasn't changed. the interesting thing, we knew peggy olsen as secretary and know she didn't go to college. and we've seen her sort of get her opportunities for various reasons. don's been -- been her champion, as she said, also been, you know, he's been a big problem for her. the idea of somebody earning their confidence, to me it's all about earning something in the

story. what happens in the real world, i mean, people should watch that show every day and be grateful the nots like it was. t issues of being a person have not changed. a lot of things are just as bad as they ever were. the biggest difference, a like at this period and say i can't deny this, part is because i have kids. take an example of something like, like donald sterling. right? where people would have just said at some point, the guy's 80 years old. that's the way it was. i swear to you, you know that. that's five years ago they would have said that. now, zero tolerance. a business built on this they have to buy into, everyone as far as i can tell is doing the right thing and this man is going to be excluded from this economic opportunity, because of his attitude. no matter how old he is. that to me, that intolerance for that behave sir not part of

anything. the thing that's different is the virtue of behaving well. that seems to me a little sketchy now. i think society and the law is pushing on it. that's exciting, but i think that still privately, i mean, my kids, they have like, race blind. they're gender blind. they say ridiculous things that make me feel horrible all the time. i'm just like, i'm sorry that -- that i'm -- i'm sorry i said that. i don't know why that's so bad. up know? insulting, i'm not a racist. i don't know what to tell you. i do think that, like -- the attitudes and what's expected are different. and some things we've reached the end of. you know? a woman can do a man's job. but there's still when we talk about "we" we're talking about white men, and a woman has to sit down and say we are doing this and they know no one is including her. when the color has the same

thing. and i still feel a little bit of that success segregation. i always look at it and say, like if you're a woman right now, you still have the same problem you've ever had. you have to deal with having a family, which men do not deal with. we just don't. you know? we want -- i'm a good family man. i love my kids. i'm there, but my wife runs her own business also and we're basically, you know, spending a lot of time feeling gil ining g in the end, somebody, you know, gets a cut at school. my wife's going to get them. i'm not leaving my job for that. that's a pretty hard -- i don't want to be that way. it's expected. they won't even call me first. that's just the way it is. >> this is -- going to sound -- or perhaps sound gratuitous, it is not. you raised it. a shout-out to your wife quickly. >> linda bretler is my wife. >> she's your wife but i do know

her name. >> strong enough not to take my name a. brilliant architect. i wish i had the magazine. on the cover of "lux" magazine a gorgeous spread of your home. i wouldn't put it throughout if it weren't on the cover of the magazine. >> yeah, i know i. love my friends i love architecture and design. done two, three houses and built my office building. i'm so into that. i love it. what she did with that house, the spread is -- and your office. >> i know. i'm very lucky. >> made an office for you? >> i spent a long time working on the ntimidated. things to keep you from working. >> a magazine called "luxe." check out the magazine. >> the interesting thing about her we have a similar take on things creatively which is she doesn't believe in rules. takes it by the space, the clintd and by the person. and that's kind of what's so

exciting, i think about the house, too. she's faithful to the style but also really believes in, like, there's no rules. and it's not -- i'm going to make it crazy just to make it crazy what is it suppose supposed to be? things are so bland and pale and homagenized, people are kind of afraid to live in color and in -- >> it's very colorful. >> yeah. she just did it. it's a house filled with kids. what we really wanted, so -- >> thank you, thank you. i want this. >> i love this. walk out in the middle of the set -- >> can i get a chocolate milkshik? >> good lord. two things. this house is that -- can you get that? house is divine. and i want to show you one other photo with a feature in it. sorry, guys. love what you've done, linda. love it. talking about matt's office a moment ago. i hope the camera does justice

to it. shis matthew's office that linda did for him. i want you to notice behind his desk the book shelf. i don't know if you can get in on this real good here. can you see this? it's a window. just a gorgeous design that -- >> how am i going to work in there? it's scary. >> i could shoot this tv show in there. >> i want to live in there. it's a great space. i am not a good enough writer to work in that space. >> there's the kovler there by the cool called, get a copy, you can see the home that they share with these four lovely boys. how do two -- creative people partner. >> i mean the two of you are creative in different ways. how does that work? seems like a wonderful thing t. is. it a wonderful thing, because there's a lot of understanding how things are and we have different jobs. that's part of it, too. sounds cynical, one of the things great about being with smu creative with a different profession, when she succeeds, i

can be really happy for her. we're not competing. i'm terrible. i'm in show business. she's not like that. no. what it, she had a line she contributed to the show and i often point ourt she reads all the scripts and is involved in the show. not with the writers but a big part of it. there's a line in the suitcase, a kind of famous episode of the show where i said to her, i said i can't tell the difference between what's good and what's awful. and she said, they're very close. i'm like, that's our relationship in terms of what our work is. the other thing is, we both love to work. so there's not a lot of guilt about, like, being obsessed or writing something down during dinner, or sketching something. on my vacation photos, no pictures of the kids. just railings and stair treads and, you know, i have to get used to that. but -- she's obsessed and it make as difference. >> it's a beautiful partnership. i love it. >> thanks. >> go back, if you will, and

unpack a little bit more for me. this notion of success segregation. i love that phrase. success segregation and where you see it most prominent our society today. >> well, i me, we are a capitalist society that's motivateed by money. but i do think there's a, that there's, i think people's feelings about those who have not made it yet are criminal. i think it's not christian. it's not -- it's not american. and it's old. i sort of grew up with this idea of hearing, people on welfare don't want to work, all of this stuff and it sort of disappeared, and there's an idea that if you don't have something in nice, you're not good enough. if you are not successful, you haven't tried hard nudge. there's actually something wrong with you, and that you wouldn't know you what to do with it if you got it. and i feel like that happens even at a high level, when somebody, when two people are very successful and you know, a lot of "mad men" comes from

reading the biog graechs and stud ig the great figures of the 20th century and there is mobility in the united states. i'm not going to trash the united states. it's one of the few places where you can get off a, get out of a prison camp in cambodia and start a -- >> not what it used to be, but some mobility. >> they've done everything to destroy it, and -- but that you know, sounds simplistic. greediness or whatever. to me, i find the idea is i'm successful, therefore i am a good person. and you're not successful. so you did something wrong. it's almost like you know, it's calvinism, feels like it's from, like, 300 or 400 years ago and i see it all the time. and the funniest part is, you start behaving that way, then the entire culture brk becomes run on pay baback, because you should not count anybody out. that person you looked down on is going to be your boss. that could totally happen.

you might try and legislate out of it or whatever, but you're going to run into them. >> like peggy and -- >> peggy and jon. exactly! you know what's funny? i talk a lot about that in the show. you mentioned it's a lot about the history of business and economics, and the to me, like, it's not just the personal part of it. like, peg you thought she was the boss when they fired somebody, but being the boss in a creative enterprise or any enterprise means you're the meaner has to decide all by yourself if you're doing the right thing and can't trust anybody's pinn. she's living with that, but i also think, like, you know, personalities, it's always stunning to me, you know, roger sterling said something like, 99% of the time this business comes down to, i don't like that guy. you know? i feel like that has been the most interesting thing to me. that really works at a high level. this advertising merger that didn't happen because these two guys couldn't decide who was more important. but when i say success segregation, i just mean the, in the simplest form that women

still can't rise to the level that they're entitled to unless they're born with money, or they're unstoppable in some way. an exception that proves the rule, answers forgetting about equality, the idea someone who is not where you are, who is t not -- it gets worse and worse. you can pay an extra $100 to not have the to drive through a poor neighborhood, not have to see it. go to the front of theary plane, do all this. your attitude about other people, which to me, you know, obviously i'm revealing my politics, i think it's very bad for this country and it's -- to assume that someone who does not have what you have is less of a person than you, is just -- not something that -- maybe i'm being naive. maybe it's always been part of the culture but i see it now and people, not since the '80s, since i went to klemp and saw somebody with a poster on the wall that said, kill the poor. i don't get it. >> what you're talking about i

don't think you're naive. you're talking ak one of the remnants of inequality run amock and it's -- >> but people -- i don't know. i don't want to advocate for religion per se, but you take someone like the rock fellers. this man was a carnivorous capitalist, destroyed a lot of businesses. took a lot of people out. they built spellman, they built the u.n. they built lincoln center, built rockefeller center, financed these things during the great depression to give jobs. built the university of chicago. there was a sense, even if it was the most patronizing thing in the world that your job is to make the world a better place with all of that. i don't see any of this money being shared. and i think there's a contempt for everyone who doesn't have it. and the worst thing is, i think they're screwing themselves. if i'm allowed to say that. because -- who's going to buy everything? who do they think is going to buy everything if they don't have any money and -- so your

phone's cheap. you've got to have something else in life. >> preaching to the choir, brother. couldn't agree more. thought about quincy jones' advice to me. told me years ago, back to what you said earlier, put it tavis, be careful, because the toes you step on today may be connected to the behind you have to kiss tomorrow. [ laughter ] >> yeah. >> that was -- >> that is staged wisdom i. cleaned it up for public television i. bet. >> i'm saying in the minute or so i have left, i am not happy. i understand how it works but i am not happy i have to wait until 2015. >> i know. >> to see the rest of these last search episodes, man. >> i'm hoping you'll be really happy when sunday's episode airs, that next year there will be more show. because we're working really hard on it. a big finish to the show and that wasn't my decision, but i feel like, you know, "down abbey" has episodes every season and no one the complaining.

>> done good. it's amazing to me a show that comes out of nowhere on a network you help put on a map becomes part of the american zeitgeist. got to feel good. you've done something they'll be talking about for many, many years. >> i don't no if i'm absorbed that. i love to hear it. it's a minute now and ending and you sort of say, like, i just am very grateful and grateful to the people, part of the story, just the work family. grateful i got to meet all of these amazing people and learn so much and test myself. >> going to be on high atist. >> called "are you here?" amy poehler for one. about some of the things we're talking about today even though it's a comedy. >> well, ain't no grass growing under your feet. >> happy to be busy. >> linda, i'm inviting myself over to the house. at least you can do, give me like a tour of -- this wonderful

place. so inviting myself. anyway, "mad men" this sunday, last episode for this season and we'll be waiting for a few more months for the last seven episodes come 2015. something tells me knowing matthew weiner's work, it will be worth the wait. matt, always honored to have you on the program. these conversations are so rich. there's so much more, we could talk about "mad men" ad infinitum. you bring so much to the conversation. i appreciate talking to you. >> and i to you because you really listen. >> thank you. that's our show for tonight. thanks for watching. as always, keep the faith. . >> for more information on today's show visit tavis smiley on pbs.org. join me next time for a conversation with charles riley, known professionally at lil buck. answer about a dance he's bringing to the worlds. that's next time. we'll see you then.

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