. good evening, i'm tavis smiley. what the consequences might be if the grand jury convened in the missouri city shooting death of michael brown does not call for an indictment against the officer. it galvanized activists across the nation to see excessive force by police at some point come to an end. we're glad you joined us. that conversation coming up right now.

and by contributions to your pbs station by viewers like you. thank you. the grand jury's decision whether or not to indict the officer that shot michael brown is expect in days. if they will choose not to indict the and consequences will have communities on edge. joining us to civil rights

attorney and community advocate connie rice, front and center in the nation-wide efforts to bring about police reform certainly in la and beyond. connie, always great to be in conversation with you, although, i wish about something else. >> ditto. >> let me jump right in the time i have. what do you expect is going to happen if this grand jury decides not to indict? >> well, the signals right now and i'm just reading, have no idea, i think that the reason they let the leaks out that they did let out were to try to get people used to the idea that the jury, grand jury is leaning towards not indicting. because if they believe what officer wilson is saying, then he had a right to shoot him. so they are trying with the leaks to prepare the ground and try to diffuse some of this tension. but i don't think it's going to work. now i tell you, i was there, i

was in ferguson three weeks ago with glen eiffel and i think that fuse is lit, and i don't think that anything they can do can put it out right now, but i'm hoping i'm wrong. if they don't indict him, tavis, i think we're going to see an uprising. >> like here in la? >> yes, i do because the tensions are too tight and too raw and the reactions by the city have been too little too late. so while they may be doing some things they should have been doing 15 years ago like getting rid of that dragnet blanket system of warrants and arrests, that basically criminalize this entire black community, when i was there i called it a predatory governmental scream. it's very predatory. your government is waiting to snag you and trying to ring

hundreds of dollars out of the poorest citizens who happen to be black and that to me is predatory. it's no better than the check cashing and other kinds of predators who pray on the poor, and so you had an entire governmental scheme that was organized to pray on the black population, which is a very scary thing when you think about it. they are now backing away from that and they are starting to dismantle big chunks of it. i don't know the status of it right now, but if they take away that warrant system that used to fund a good deal of their budget, and they start diversifying that police force, and they understand that they can no longer pray on the black community the way the police have, they might start to keep the steps in the right direction but this reaction to mr. brown's death. >> yeah. >> uh-uh. >> i was just thinking, ain't none of that going to happen

fast enough. >> yeah. >> these -- this indictment that is or is not coming. >> i agree. >> so when you say the fuse has been lit, is that your way of saying that you are fearful of some sort of violent reaction? >> yes, i am fearful of a violent reaction because the anger is so palpable. i was there three weeks ago, and it was very clear to me, the african american population, the young folks in that cohort that's 20 to 30, 15 to 30, they are ready to go off and it was very hard to talk to the kids in that -- they are kids to me because i'm 60. it was hard to talk to them because the anger is so probable. they can't really hear much, and when kids get to that level of anger, the fuse has been lit. >> when you work with this police force in la when it wasn't so good, more work to be

done as always. >> every day. >> more work to be done but lapd used to be off the chain back in the darrell gates era 25, 30 years ago and you've been here longer. if you know on the front side, if you believe on front side he might not be indicted, officer wilson and if you believe on the front side that this fear that you sense is palpable might happen, what is the best thing that we can do on the front side? >> on the front side, let's hope it's a small violent reaction, not a large wide-spread one. if it's large and wide-spread, you're not going to have a choice but to call in the national guard -- >> let me jump in. that's my question. my question is because i can see this working both ways. if they militarize the zone before anything happens, that makes a statement about what they expect of black people, who they think we are and would catch hell for doing that in advance. >> that's right.

>> if they wait until it starts to build to your point it might be too late if it gets out of control so what do you do? >> it is too late. >> yeah. >> it's too late. >> too late today. >> it's too late today. >> yeah. >> because they have done too little too late and don't get it. see, the folks in ferguson don't get it and because of that, they are not going to read. they have never read this crowd, right? they don't understand the folks and their anger. they don't know why. i've listened to some of them and they are really perplex. they don't understand what the reaction is about. when you get that kind of gull, it's going to blow. it's going to blow. if we're unlucky and that turns out to be the case, i'm hoping it's not, but if we're unlucky enough for it to be the case then we're going to have to first of all, focus on tamping down the violence unfortunately, because you can't have the people's lives in danger. and then you're going to have to start earnest negotiations and i hope the black and can be phased in overtime.

and i hope people -- i saw folks capable of that kind of planning and what not and i hope that's what the african american leadership system is doing. >> would it help clamp down what might becoming and we had this conversation because i don't want this to be a self-fulfilling prophesy. would it help you think if every person white in leadership in that position, i put that in quotes because i'm not sure they are real servant leaders, would it help if the police chief, mayor holding down a position overseeing this predatory government that you called in, if they immediately all

resigned -- >> depends who takes their place. >> if they resign and responsible african americans, since this is majority black city. if they resign immediately, if the white folk out of town, i'll be quoted for that. new sheriff in town, no pun intended, new leaders in town, would that quail that violence? >> probably most of it because i think the african american community, even the angry young african american community would want to give that a shot of succeeding. >> i didn't mention the da. the prosecutor at the top of that list. >> i understand. i understand all the folks that they wanted that. i think that would be enough of a change that the african american community. who knows, tavis.

i may be projecting my own fears here, not what is going to happen. i'm just billing on my experience of past communities and the tensions and anger remains at a level. the responses remain anemic. put them together, and it's not a good situation. >> so if i'm watching this program and i'm a good white fellow citizen and i'm sean or bill o'reilly watching this show, i hear two negros telling me, playing devil's advocate, two negros saying if you don't indict this officer all hell will break loose. are you telling me we have to indict him even though the evidence doesn't lay that out or y'all going to lose your mind? >> no, we don't have to do anything. they are free not to indict. they are not free to put their heads in the sand about the

possible consequences of that. we're not putting our heads in the sand. we're taking a look at a community that we have a little bit of understanding. i'm not going to pretend i understand ferguson. why was there, i knew i didn't understand it and i knew i didn't understand what this set of african americans have been living with for 1500 years. >> but you seen this movie before, though. >> yes, yes and when you have systemic oppression the way ferguson practiced it as a predatory government, when you've been imposing that on people for decades and decades and expected it to go on, the folks have been on auto pilot. i talked to the white folks there, they really didn't know what i was talking about. they kind of looked at me in a startled way and i said it has been predatory. do you understand your government prayed on the black population here and the resentment has built above the danger level?

the white folks are completely lost. i mean, they don't understand any of this. so when you've got that kind -- and you don't have leadership that's willing to sit up and say okay, we've been wrong in the past. we've been wrong, we shouldn't have done any of this. we're sorry. we're starting a new page right here and they weren't trying to tip the scales in the favor of non-indictment. tavis, what were those leaks about? that has done nothing but prime the pump. i think that without the leaks even noble, even a failure to indict may have been acceptable at some level but with these leaks trying to tip the scale, it feels unfair. >> let's assume again because i want to cover the bases here, let's assume it was flipped and there is no indictment and the community failed. is there then hope that the justice department steps in and the only person in the justice

department whose -- not the only person, eric holder, the ag went to ferguson so he's on the record that he's aware of this and understands the issue but also announced he's stepping down at ag. what happens, if they don't indict, what role can or you think will the federal government play? >> i'm sure the feds will step in like in la after the acquittal of the officers that beat rodney king and they did criminal and civil actions. i'm quite sure the justice would step in in this situation. you heard the signals from eric holder that's what he would do and they will have to pick up

the baton and run and finish this race for the community. here is the thing. they may be able to prosecute for violations of civil rights at the federal level and they would also be able to help with self actions. so i can see them playing the same role here that they played with rodney king. >> again, i want to try to be at least open in my head at least, the justice system may have to step in, pick up the baton and run this. that sounds like if y'all don't incite you were wrong for indicting. that's a different argument to me trying to say they have been wrong for being a predatory government. i'm absolutely 10 0% with you but friends see bill maher and say he was acting like michael brown, he was acting like a thug said bill maher. the government may have been

predatory toward the citizenry but when we say the justice department has to pick up the baton and finish running the race, do you see my point? it sounds like we're making them indict. >> i should have added the quota. if the evidence is there to indict. >> there you go. >> all right. >> okay now -- >> i'm sorry. i was assuming that there was an assumption i was making. if the evidence shows that michael brown provoked and tripped this trip wire himself. >> uh-huh. >> then there should be no indictment. let's be very clear. i'm not suggesting there be an indictment no matter what. if the evidence goes towards there being absolutely no grounds for this child being dead, indict. >> right. >> if michael brown attacked the officer and tried to get his gun away and so forth and so on and

that's what the forensic evidence supports, it's our job to explain to the black community, we have this wrong. >> will they hear that? >> no, they won't, but as leaderships's obligation at that point is to make very clear we understand the forensic evidence and we understand the testimony on balance says not to indict this officer. this officer had a right to kill michael brown. that is still plausible to me. so i'm waiting -- i am waiting for the evidence. i'm not saying there has to be an indictment. i'm saying that if there isn't an indictment and if you look at the condition of the community, there will probably be a bad reaction. how they roll this out is going to be critical. they had better have all their ducks lined up and the proof lined up so that the leadership has something to be able to defend the government's action with, if that's what is warranted. >> so back to this larger issue, that's why i love talking to you. this is not a new issue but you

crystallize it tonight in a way many might not have understood it much less embraced it, that is this notion of how in a particular incident, law enforcement might not be wrong history of your predatory government oversight does build up a kind of tension that a teapot is going to blow. so ferguson is the sight of the michael brown shooting and other shootings we can talk about tonight in this country, we'll set that aside for a moment. there are many examples of government that acted in predatory ways where color is concerned, black, brown. in 2014 in this country where we still have governments in certain municipalities that behave in a predatory way towards certain color. >> it's the legacy of slavery

and post slavery you had to keep them in check. you had to keep them down and there were a lot of schemes to do that. some of them have been out lawed. some are no longer done but many of them continue and. the line connecting us back to slavery is so wrong now and we're wondering what is the problem. well, you can't target a whole population of people to contain and suppress them and to literally pick their pockets. i mean, ferguson got 21% of its budget every year from these poor african americans by setting two to three to five warrants on every single black family. that's predatory. that's predatory. and there is no excuse for it. i don't know why it's even plausible to be legal but it should not be legal, and the

black community, all they know is they are experiencing this on slot of attacks and stops and thrown outs and frisks and constant harassment but they are so isolated that no one is calling it and saying wait a minute, government you can't do that. and the black leadership has not stood up and said wait a minute, this is illegal. it should have been challenged a long time ago. >> let me go back to the notion of slavery and what happened post slavery. it took a long time to get there. i've been on a book tour and wrote about dr. king and what happens to king from '67 to '68 when he comes out against the war and talks about the triple threat facing this country, i keep making the point, what do you see in ferguson, the same triple threat. racism, poverty and african americans do not have the right to vote.

i understand the link between poverty and electoral politics but when we talk about a government that's acted and behaved in a predatory way, this is a city with a predominantly african american population and they did not have to live this way. that is being maltreated in this way had different folk run for office, some different folk been elected to office, i would like to think or assume in the leadership would have been different. what do we say on this side of this crisis about the vote, about the participation of the process? >> ferguson's african american community better wake up and smell the coffee and get the burners burning because there is no excuse. they are the majority. this is apartheid. this is a typical american city that practices apartheid where you have one tribe lording over a much bigger tribe, and there is no excuse for this.

now maybe they felt like they were disenfranchised because they couldn't win on election or who knows what the reasons are. i'm sure there are reasons. we need to get that stuff out of the way. that's all in the past now. we know how to dismantle this kind of government. ferguson has already taken four big steps toward dismantling the warrant and position system because once you had warrants slapped on you, that gave the police the full go ahead to stop you and prone you out and pull you over every five minutes and they would start dunning you. it was like a -- it's like the old debt prison system without the jail except they did put you in jail without the warrant. it's a prison scheme imposed on the african american community and only the african american community can stop it now. so right now, ferguson actually took three votes i'm aware of to begin dismantling this warrant in

position system, so that you stop giving the police a clear and free entree to stop all the african americans. but tavis, yes, there is blame to go around. there is blame to go to the african american leadership for not getting the vote organized, not accessing it and not taking over the government and organizing it in a way so it's fair. that's on the african american community and they have to start waking up, too. >> here we are with proposition 47 to be exact if we can pull this off in california, it might be a model for how the rest of the country can behave to address a particular issue. let me ask you to take two minutes to tell me about prop 47 and what we r able to do here in california. >> well, prop 47 would begin to attack the mass incarceration that imprisoned three generations of african americans

and latinos and pull the funding blocks out. it would resentence many people for non-violent reasons would get their sentences redone. you're beginning to attack this mass incarceration machinery that we rigged and jigged against poor african americans and latinos and whites and who has the meth an -- methamphetamine convictions and who goes to prison for making meth, there is no doubt about it we're repeating the pattern. it's against poor americans in general. this proposition i pray it passes because then you begin to reverse the mass incarceration jugger knot. and heaven knows we need it. we have taken all the fathers out of these families. we've taken the uncles out of these families. we removed the men from lower

income black families and tavis, you know i'm a femininest. i'm your wrors -- worst nightmare and you know it. >> and i still love you. >> i'm a female chauvinist. if you take the men out of a community, you kill that community. we killed those communities. so -- keep your fingers crossed because this is a model for attacking the non-violent piece of -- that's what most of these convictions are about. drugs and non-violent offenses. we're suggesting taking rapist and freeing them or those who had marijuana and got ten years. makes no sense. so that's what that proposition is about. keep your fingers crossed. i think we'll pass it. >> here in california what might be something, a piece of legislation that can lead the way for the country on this

prison industrial completion. in case you're watching tonight and seeing connie rice for the first time, i love saying for people interested in trivia, e wonder if she's -- yes, she is. she's first cousins with that other rice. connie rice, conde rice is her second. it's fascinating they are in the same family. i love both of y'all and honored to have you back. >> great to see you. >> that's the show for tonight and thanks for watching and as >> that's the show for tonight and thanks for watching and as always, keep the faith. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com conversation about campaign finance reform. that's next time, see you then.

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and their buns are something i have yet to find anywhere else. >> 'cause i'm not inviting you to my house for dinner. >> breaded and fried and gooey and lovely. >> in the words of arnold schwarzenegger, i'll be back! >> you've heard of connoisseur. i'm a common-sewer. >> they knew i had to ward off some vampires or something. >> let's talk dess