good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. tonight, a conversation with new york times best selling author nicholas kristof. he's written about issues of poverty, war and equality and the rigs to women and children. his latest with his wife and collaborator sheryl dunn is published tomorrow, "a path of peers." one of the best and most effective uses around money, time and energy as we work toward making the world a better place to live. the conversation with nicholas kristof coming upright now. ♪

contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ every week nicholas kristof deals into the issues of poverty, conflicts, the rights of women and children in this country and abroad. how to affect positive change in the world.

it's co-written with his wife sheryl dunn. good to have you on the program, sir. >> good to be on. >> i want to jump spinto the bo in a second. recently, you did a couple columns that got the attention of the nation. your columns tend to do that. these two were about what happens and white folk don't get it. about rational issues in this country. why did you decide to write that? tell me more about the response you received. >> well, opportunity gaps in this country. i think that there are an awful lot of people in this country who just don't want to talk about anything involving race and who don't want to address some of those gaps because they see them as having racial overtones. i wrote initially about unconscious bias and the way,

often the problem is not all out racist who perceive blacks as being unequal but rather people with biases they are unaware of and translate into their hiring decisions and all kind of things. the feedback i got, i found dispiriting. i'm writing for "the new york times" with an open minded audien audience. there were so many people, who, in particular see young black men as kind of predators to be written off and didn't want to have this conversation. i think that it's, at the end of the day, you know, straight people have to talk about gay rights, men have to talk about gender and white people have to begin to try to erase some of these biases in the white community. within the white world, we talk

about more personal responsibility in the black community. absolutely. we also need, though, more personal responsibility in the white community for the kind of structural inequities that exist in hiring and the criminal justice system all over. we have to have that conversation. >> does that suggest to you, then, that nothing good is going to come of ferguson, missouri, if people aren't willing to have that conversation? >> i think that any of these episodes get people talking will grudgingly have an effect. you see that in polling about people by age. you know, clearly, we have come a long way. i don't think that especially the white community appreciates how much distance we have left to go. they see the barrier is gone and think problem solved, let's move on.

boy, it is so much more complicated than that. anything we can do to get people talking is going to help chip away at that. it's going to be a long process. >> how do you just pose the ugly responses you received to receiving those responses in the era of barack obama? it's one thing, you get my point, 30 or 40 years ago. how about in the era of the first black president? >> to some degree, it's a backlash. in the long run, i think that the election of a black president is going to be good for racial equity in this country. it does create a backlash and resentment and i think that that may feed some of that antagonism that we see. you know, in the progress is stunning. the place we have yet to go -- the two figures that just kind of strike me the most, that the

u.s. now incourse raincarcerate more. the black/white wealth gap in the u.s. of 18 times is higher than the black/white wealth gap in south africa of 15 times. as long as you have those kind of gaps, we can't really talk about this as a land of opportunity. >> in this new book, there are great suggestions for how we can be better global citizens. we'll come to that in a second. on this issue of race and what a lot of people need to understand to really address this issue, what were you suggesting in columns one and two that they could do if they are truly interested in getting it? >> i think a starting -- i mean, actually goes to the issues we talk about. i think that the time when we

want to try to have an intervention or make a difference is not when you have a black teenager being stopped by a suspicious white cop on the street. you need to change courses of people, create opportunity and education is generally the place, the escalator to create opportunity. in this country, the escalator is broken. that is a lot of young black kids in the inner city. a lot of white kids, working class white kids don't have that equal shake. there's a real opportunity gap in this country. one element of that is race. a lot of that is class as well. >> how would you grade america as a nation? how would you grade our fellow citizens in how we are doing at being global citizens? are we getting a passing grade, a failing grade, a good grade when it comes to the role we

play in the world? >> there have been studies in thinking of how philanthropic we are. the u.s. does well in that regard. the united states tends to do some less well as a portion of international humanitarian aid we provide. on the other hand, we are open in terms of immigration, we provide a certain amount of immigration and give them a chance to send remittances back. private donations in this country to people who need the money abroad tend to be high. australia is number one and in the rankings over ten years. the u.s. is near the top, in the top five countries. i say overall, we do pretty well. but the problem is that whether it's, you know, aid at home or aid abroad, two-thirds of americans donate to charity. we know it's not effective. helping people is harder than it looks. that is why sheryl and i wrote

the book. we think there are so many people that want to help. they want to help other people and want the fulfillment you get. we thought they could provide a handbook of how to make a difference. >> talk about how to create a better model for people to do what they want to do in their hearts. let me challenge the text. i want to get your response to this. if i said to you, with all due respect to you and sheryl, it's not about philanthropy, it's about charity and justice. they are two different things. we are a sound society. when it comes to charity, we love to support each other. when the major crises happen, americans throw money to help out in a crisis. our problem is not charity. >> i guess i would say they are not in opposition to each other. we need both. you know, we absolutely need

government programs, for example. you wouldn't think of building a highway system having individuals go out and build one. you need government initiative the same way you need it for poverty. there are real needs out there that the government is not going to solve right now. there are people, we can all do things to provide that. i'm here partly, my dad was east european refugee. he was -- he fled romania and made his way to france. it was important for the u.s. and other countries to address the global refugee problem, but the reason i'm here is that there was a church in portland, oregon and a couple other people that sponsored his way to come to america. i think you need both. >> is the real problem you are trying to get, is the real problem the apparatus, the straktustra structure we have, for trying to

do good? if it's not a problem, what is the solution? >> i mean the problem is essentially lack of opportunity. we all know about inequality in this country. there's obviously a profound problem when the top 1% of the country owns more than the bottom 90%. more important than the economic inequity is opportunity. it is so clear that there are kids out there who don't have anything like the chance at the starting line and so many others. there are ways we can create greater equity. the only thing i have seen polling at 97% in this country is there should be more equalized economic opportunity. people disagree with transfer payments and other solutions, but agree there should be more equal economic chances at life. >> a disconnect. every poll i read, that data comes through loud and clear.

somewhere in the process, there's a disconnect between what the american people think and what they do. i'm not naive that congress is a different entity, but how do you explain the disconnect between what we want to do and what our elected leader never get around to doing? >> there are two reasons. one is people across the country, as a whole, are more concerned with inequality of opportunity than inequality of outcomes. the middle and the right, in particular, are less concerned with the outcome. i think that often those of us on the liberal side of the spectrum do better talking less about inequality and opportunity. the other thing is, i think that there's a frustration out there. people don't know how to make a difference. they think it's sad when they see kids out there who don't get a shot at life but think it's

hopeless. in fact, one of the messages is in the last 20 years we have real evidence based programs on how to make a difference, create that opportunity. these are rigorously tested programs, tested the way a pharmaceutical trial is. they save money because if you invest a little more now in these kids, you are spending less on prisons down the road. >> let's go inside the text. give me a couple examples. a couple favorites that point up the fact that we can create opportunity. >> sure. i would say one of the lessons, again, is that one of the reasons the efforts fail is we intervene too late. it is so much easier to help a 6-month-old child or a 6-year-old child than a 16-year-old troubled kid. there was one of the most remarkable programs in the country, which is unsung, a

nurse partnership started by a guy who was originally working with troubled 4-year-olds in a high poverty community. for those kids, starting at 4 was too late. some of them, so many of them were so traumatized, so abused. so, he started a program to work with pregnant women and then up until that child was 2. it's, you know, this is at-risk moms, teenage moms, single moms. it seems like during pregnancy try not to drink, try not to use drugs. after birth, talk to your child, read to your child. reduce exposure to led paint. hug your child. maternal attachment at age 3 1/2 is more than iq. so many things don't cost a lot of money. at the end of the day, most moms and dads, they want to be good

moms and dads, but it's an incredibly hard job when you are stressed out, when you are poor, when your life is in chaos and giving them the tools to be better parents. give those kids a better starting point in life. >> there's not a quantum leap one has to make intellectually for why our society doesn't treat women the way it should. the obvious answer is petatriary is alive and well. you are doing work on women's issues. what i don't understand, i'm not naive in asking this, what i don't understand is how it is both the left and the right, everybody talks about children. everybody says they want to help children. i don't care who you are, it's always about the children. the children are our future. how is it that we can say, with our mouths, profess to all love

and value children, yet that never seems to play itself out as it should? >> i think part of that is voting. you know, seniors vote. that is why we have, you know, medicare since the 1960s for seniors and we didn't have a national health care program for children, even though it's more cost effective to deal with children than seniors. i think part of it is a function of voting. i think part of it was a misunderstanding and a sense that children are resilient. okay, even if there are problems, they are plastic and we can solve those problems in school and one of the lessons over the last couple decades is that is not true. what kids need most in those early years, as your brains are being developed, is nurturing and support and love. you know, even things like being read to, there are so many kids

that grow up in homes without a single children's book. kids books are cheap. there's a wonderful program called reach out and read. doctors encourage the visit to give free books and prescribe the mom to read to the child bedtime stories. it increases the number of stories they are read to, hugely. the result, when they start school, they have bigger vocabularies, enjoy reading more. costs $20 per year per child. it's crazy that we don't expand that on a broader scale. i think it's a lack of appreciation of what can be done. >> public policy to the lives we live as individuals. >> yeah. >> you and sheryl take this issue head on in the text. that is the notion that so many americans have that they don't have the resources to do good in the world, even though they want to. we'll leave that to bill gates. we'll leave that to warren

buffett. leave it to government. i would like to help, but i don't have the resources. you take that head on. >> absolutely. when you ask americans who do not contribute to charity, the reason is well, i don't have the money to do so. in fact, there's no correlation between incomes or wealth and whether people contribute. the bottom 20% of people in america contribute a higher share of their income to charity than the top 20%. they have so many fewer resources. less of a tax deduction for doing so. so, i guess, you know, it's also, it's not about helping others. there's tremendous satisfaction and fulfillment. we get trying to attach ourselves to a cause larger than ourselves. the other thing i would say is apart from writing checks, there are things we can do in terms of advocacy for better public policy and in terms of volunteering. even being alert to the people

around you, one of our favorite stories in that book involves a kid who grew up in the south. he went to segregated schools. in teenage years, he was beginning to get in trouble, shoplifting, didn't want to read books. he happened to be in the school library. he saw a book where women were scantily covered. he thought it was cool. he didn't want to be seen reading a book so he didn't check it out. he stole it. he read it. it was a great book. he returned it after reading it, put it on the shelf and noticed there was another book on the shelf by the same author. he stole that one, too. read it. it happened four times. it transformed his life. he became a reader. he went to college, went to law school, became a civil rights leader, a judge. years later, he went back to the

school for a reunion. he told the school librarian how much he owed. she saw him stealing that first book. then she realized he was a tough guy and didn't want to be seen. she let him steal it. she drove an hour and a half to the nearest city to buy, with her own money, another bach to put in its place in hopes this bright, troubled kid would keep on reading. we all have these chances to influence people around us. it's kind of a question of whether we are going to point fingers or offer a helpi ining . >> great story. let me go back. this notion, this reality, in fact, that americans at the bottom give more than the americans at the top. how do you read that? what do you make of that

reality? >> i think it is a reflection partly of a -- i don't know how to say this politely, but a selfishness among those who have made it. it is reflected not only in a reluctant to be generous but also a tendency to blame the poor for being poor and see it as a moral failing rather than economic failing. a big difference in attitudes between the top 1% and the population as a whole is attitudes toward public education and the top 1% are less enthusiastic about spending for public education. how one can live in this country and not want to invest in that escalator of opportunity to

create more opportunity for so many others. it mystified me. i think there is a real selfishness and myopia among people who made it who think, look how great. i worked hard. i went to school. i studied hard. i'm honest. those other people should do the same thing, too. without beginning to appreciate they were often born on third base and, you know, congratulating themselves on hitting a triple. >> that's the point warren buffett makes. he says the greatest -- the greatest peace of his success is he was born in the united states. >> absolutely. >> you can't take credit for that. he happened to be born in the united states. >> he won the lottery. i think we think of poverty in terms of income. you can have a low income family where a kid has a terrific opportunity, but, i think a much better predictor of the child's

success is not the family income. it's the number of children's books in that house, whether the child is read to. whether that child is getting emotional support. there are a lot of kids that don't get that investment. we can help those parents do that. >> what do we do when fill an trop pi goes wrong. the way they spend their money, the politics connected to the money they spend in this country and certainly in africa and other parts of the underdeveloped world. they end up -- >> yeah. absolutely. helping people is harder than it looks. there are a lot of things that don't achieve the help they are going for. i think that one of the advantages we have now, you know, a generation ago, come december people pull out their

checkbo checkbook, write a check. these days, it's an investment. there is information out there. there are trials that give you a sense of what the return is going to be on your investment in a charity, if you will. i think, you know, there are going to be some of those investments that are going to go wrong as there are going to be some investments in the stock that go wrong. on the whole, i think, the returns are -- we can now have a much better sense of how to get good returns than we used to. >> why is it that you are hopeful americans will continue down this path when i could argue, if i have the time, for the sake of argument, we may be becoming more negative into the future? >> i think there is a risk that we could go either way, but, one reason i'm optimistic is the returns to ones self, of engaging in a cause larger than

yourself are so enormous. there is a selfish reason to be selfless, if you will. there's a yearning on the part of americans for that kind of satisfaction, if they can figure out how to do it right. >> a new book out. "a path appears." it's written by nicholas kristof and by his wife. nicholas, i'm always honored to have you on the program. give my best to sheryl. >> i'll do that. thanks. >> that's the show for tonight. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. i'm tavis smiley join me next time for a conversation with singer and actress vanessa williams. that's next time. see you then. ♪

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