[music] welcome to a very special edition of equal time. i'm your host, journalism professor and school director, bob rucker at san jose state university. today we're going to take up a challenge presented by president obama: why aren't we talking about race in america? today we will and we have some very special guests. let's meet them. my name is meredith clark; i'm an assistant professor of digital and print news at the mayborn school of journalism at the university of north texas. i'm phil jeter. i'm a member of the faculty at winston-salem state university

in winston-salem, north carolina. winston-salem state university is historically a black university and i teach mostly in the electronic media sequence. i'm doug mendenhall, an assistant professor from abilene christian university in abilene, texas where i teach several writing classes as well as race in media and a religion in media class. and i'm george daniels, assistant dean of the college of communication and information sciences at the university of alabama; that's in tuscaloosa. i also teach two classes in the area of diversity; a mass communication, communication and diversity class, and a course called race, gender and media. those are offered each year to our students who are studying journalism, telecommunication and film, public relations, and many other areas. i want to thank each and every one of you, taking the time to come here to talk about something that's very important. each one of us are professors, each one of us have had the experience of opening up that discussion about diversity, about race in this country.

but i'm curious, and i think our audience will be curious, around the country how easy is it-- let's start with you meredith-- how easy is it to get people to actually talk about race? well, when it comes down to getting students to talk about race i find it's easier than it used to be. in my classroom, we tell students that you're going to say something that will offend someone else, you're going to be offended by something that is said; this is the space where you can share those views and feel open and safe in doing so. so, once we get that conversation started, it really does just begin to flow. do they come into the classroom eager to do it or is there a little trepidation? they've heard about my class-- [laughter] -- so when they come on the first day, they know what's going to happen. yeah that's my experience here at san jose state. i've been doing it for 20 years and people know rucker is going to talk about it. what about in your situation? i think trepidation is a good word. there's a little bit of hesitancy. we try in the first day to break the ice so their first assignment from me is going to be to share their earliest memory in life that involves race in some way.

and just sharing those personal stories is a good way to get everyone to accept each other, be more personal, see we're all people here, and go on with deeper conversations. very good. now this issue we're talking about race because in my class one of the first things we show is a 1990s news special on race. it was produced here in the bay area by one of the local television stations and it talks about race being only skin deep; now that's something that in alabama is really hard to swallow given our history. but what we want to do in that very first class is help students to look at race from different vantage points and that argument about race is coming from those looking at it genetically. so i think opening up that discussion with understanding this is about you being informed, is really what a class like that is all about. absolutely, and phillip? well, we have a course in minorities in the media but because we're a historically black university, 90 to 95% of my students every semester are black

and these subjects just come up as a manner of course; something may happen and it sparks the discussion. so it's part of the natural course of events in my classes and the students know that i'm a very big advocate of free speech; say what's on your mind but where are the facts coming with this assertion, whatever it is you're making, however off-the-wall it may be? let's take this to its conclusion. well, one of the triggers i know that we've used in our classes here at san jose state is to talk about certain words and why we should or should not be using them in terms of race and the impact it has on people. the n-word made news in recent months when president obama used it in a podcast and people go, "oh my goodness, how can the president of the united states use that word?" and yet if you listen to the way he described it and the way he talked about it, it was eloquent, it was informative, and it was well-crafted.

in a course that i teach there was a student years ago, one of my favorite students, pakistan-american. he argued with us vehemently day one in the class, "i can use the n-word; we use it in music all the time. rap music has made that word ok." well, instead of criticizing, we said, "alright, we have 70 students in the class, let's all continue a conversation over 16 weeks and see if that word still has the same impact for him." and sure enough, over the 16 weeks, we physically and visually saw him change to by the end of the semester he was almost in tears, apologetic, "saying the n-word is like hitler. we really shouldn't be using it." have you had anything like that? oh, absolutely. we talk-- we have a number of students in my international media class who bring their various experiences to the classroom and we talk about the ways that cultural exports of our entertainment have influenced the different ways that international students see themselves and see americans. and so we kind of unpack what happens

when people are consuming our music, our advertisements, and not just our news media but what perspective they get and conflict those things and talk about them and dissect them in a way so they understand what it's really like to have the experience that's beyond the packaged media. very good. and you know one of the things that used to drive me nuts when i first got into higher education was the african american or the woman faculty person had to teach the diversity class. white faculty never seemed to be the ones chosen. you teach it. tell me what it's like for you? well, i volunteered. i thought it was important and i have to admit that without my children, i probably would not have gone the extra mile to do it. i have two adopted children who are biracial, one born in selma, alabama, and one born in montgomery, alabama. and so i feel like i have a responsibility to them to explain what that means and just by extension i want to explain it to our students as well. i think that in the case of obama's use of the n-word,

obviously he didn't just do that off the cuff; a lot of discussion behind doors went into that. and it's-- you know, it's a living language, it is evolving. that's a complex word that's now being used for self-reference. it's also being used by people to hurt as much as they possibly can in just a few letters, and it's being used in pop culture as well so there are so many different meanings going on. i find it to be one symptom of a larger problem that we have of incivility that shows up in media. we're to blame for that, especially the new media, the social media, that if you look at the headlines, for example on facebook, a big headline meme right now is, "watch so-and-so destroy so-and-so in 10 seconds." we like that. we're drawn to that and i think the language is being used for that purpose too. see, i think in my class i want

to help them understand how do you as a journalist, or as a media messenger producer, work with a piece of video or work with a piece of audio in this case where the president has used the n-word. do you bleep it out? right. do you leave it in? and what strategy should you use in making a decision like that? i think that's an important ethical case to bring into the discussion. all of us are from journalism, mass communication programs and so we have to remember that ethics are a part of so much of what we do and often our everyday full-time professionals don't know how to handle that. there was a lot of disagreement about whether to leave it in or bleep it out among our broadcast networks and many, at one network in particular, made a point in the story to say, "we decided that our style says, 'we don't use this word,' and so we did not include it in the story." but i think in this situation the way the president used it

in talking in his example-- it needed to be there. i tend to agree with you, but some people take issue, and i think here in silicon valley people would say, "well, it's great that the leader of the free world was comfortable enough to at least broach the subject." why are we so afraid in our society to have that conversation? well, i don't know who said it but race still remains america's raw nerve and when you-- when the subject comes up, there is likely to be a difference of opinion on the issue, the problem, the solution; whichever the case may be. and so the n-word phrase to me puts a veneer on the word that i'd rather not see. i was watching recently an old episode of "grace under fire" and an old episode of "the jeffersons" and they used the word, but now the word is toxic and nobody wants to have it go over the air, in print,

because they don't want to start the discussion about, "ok, there's that word again." i think some people worry about too if you open it up, you may not be able to keep it under control and the reactions might get too strong or that something might happen that would be offensive and, "i don't want to hurt anybody's feelings." but... no one wants to be uncomfortable. right. who gets the control? i mean in terms of the control, who is doing the controlling? if you're a journalist, what's the reality that you're relaying to your audience? this filtered...out of 39 words, this one we won't let that through the gate, or just treat it as one of the 39 words that came from this source x or y and you judge if you attach any credibility or validity to what him or her might be saying. newsrooms have a responsibility to address our communities,

to reach out and cover the things that are happening. and yet i think, i've always thought, we're ill-equipped to do it-- largely because we've had cutbacks, we don't spend a lot of time doing research, companies and news have to get stories out, we've got to keep churning this stuff out. we don't take time to talk about it as much, it seems to me. is that what your experience was? no, i frankly would disagree. i think the cutbacks mean that we need to make it more of a focus. if we are journalists, if we are people who are intermediaries between culture and people and different communities, it's our responsibility to take that on and there's plenty of training out there. we've had the exposure; we have had ethical training to teach us how to do it well. that responsibility remains. it's not absolved by the corporate structures and what tools we don't have anymore. but does the corporate structure dictate the civility tone? meaning maybe if we just don't talk about it, or if we just hang out together, it will show that we understand, we appreciate, and that's enough, right?

well, we're seeing a kind of sea change in the last 15-20 years, where the corporate structure is not just dictating the level of civility, they're dictating the slant to take. and fox news was a pioneer on that but other people have certainly caught up to them, dictating that we take this side of the argument. so we're seeing a complete change in what we grew up under the idea of american journalism as being an objective effort; we want to be as objective as possible. i think that the new generation's coming up, the generations we teach, certainly-- they're not used to that. they don't know anything about that. they're used to, "you go to this station or this network if you want this slant or you go to this one if you want that slant" you just pick your slant, and that's news. that's just the way it is. it's the way it's been all their life. the sad thing is when that slant impacts the way you cover stories, like ferguson. absolutely. it impacts the way you cover what happened in charleston.

absolutely. because now we're not necessarily talking about the news; we're talking about the slant on the news and what the political dynamics are that would suggest we go in this direction in analyzing what happened. sometimes we become the story because we are taking a certain position instead of just reporting the facts and what happened. absolutely. but sometimes we can be in the story, nested in the story, and that will offer us an opportunity to tell a personal side to it. give more meaning, more depth to it. here at san jose state when president obama was elected for the first time, we decided, in the journalism school, to send 10 students to the inauguration but not to fly them from san jose to washington. we flew them to memphis. we had them get on a van and go over to where martin luther king was killed and take the drive through the landmarks of the civil rights movement, where they could learn-- this generation could learn-- what we experienced as we were growing up; what our parents had

to do, what our parents had to deal with. and i was amazed. when they came back from the inauguration, they got off the plane and they came up and hugged me, in tears, saying basically, "this was the best learning experience because history came alive and we weren't afraid to face it." i thought that was the best learning experience ever. what do you think? i'd say it's useful. students today need that exposure. this is being treated as though it's ancient history and it's not; it is history that they are removed from by a generation, maybe two. and keeping it in front of them and making it part of a living history impacts some of the complications that we don't tend to take...well that we tend to take for granted. telling students what it was like and showing them what it was like in the 1950s, in the 1960s in the segregated south, helps give them a greater appreciation for the racial issues that we are confronting today. it's absolutely necessary to their education. and in 2015 that was a perfect opportunity in the state

of alabama to do that because we had the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday. and so instead of taking one class, we took three or four busloads of university of alabama students to selma so they could experience 80,000 people in one small community there to celebrate. but they didn't always understand what was being celebrated and that's where the learning happened. i had students who watched things in documentaries but then when they got on that bus and went down there, they got a very different experience. mm-hmm. and that's happening in a lot of classes. so that's what makes, i think, teaching in this area so exciting is when you can open up the discussion by sometimes showing them instead of telling them. how much can we talk about ourselves as professors, as teachers, to open up that discussion? for example, i know you're all from great universities and colleges all over the country, but i'm curious to ask you questions that a student would ask. you're a black woman in texas and you're talking about race; what has been your life experience in texas?

oh, it's been very interesting, especially during the last couple of months watching these events unfold in other places. and then we even had one of our own in mckinney, where there was an officer who very roughly handled some teenagers when he was arresting them at a party. and, as i tell my students with everything else, i filter the news through my personal experience; everyone does. so when i watch this, i watch it as a black woman who grew up in the south, who knows what some of those uncomfortable boundaries are and that's the way i teach it to my students: "here are the boundaries that i see; tell me a little bit about the boundaries that you see and experience." very good. and doug, you know, if i'm in your classroom-- you sound like you're an excellent teacher-- i want to ask you questions that focus in on why are white people afraid to talk about their culture? well one part of it is just that they've been told that it's best to just not talk about this. if we would just all stop talking about this topic, it would go away-- which, that's pretty naive

and we teach you not to be that naive in college. hopefully teach you to be mature enough to look outside yourself and see things through other people's eyes. that's part of the college experience; i would hope it still is. so we have to break that down in them. and then, going beyond that, you know i would give kudos to my wife who works for a small nonprofit called connecting caring communities, which is just about going into neighborhoods and helping people know their neighbors better with the idea that if you just knew who your neighbor was, you wouldn't be as afraid as you are. mm-hmm. it would be a better place to live because we would all know each other. it would, you know, be like the good-old-days when we watched each other's houses when people weren't home, took care of-- watered each other's flowers. right. -- knew each other; knew what was going on with each other. and i think there's something to that. i think that's simple, but it works. so how do we as educators make that happen, make people know each other better,

and how do we do that with the media? how do we help people to use the media so that they know more about each other instead of just shout at the people who they don't like? that's a great point. you talked about social media earlier-- mm-hmm. -- and the impact it can have. you're from alabama. you're an african american man living in alabama. mm-hmm. why? well actually i'm-- the latter is more accurate. i am an african american male living in alabama, but i'm from richmond, virginia. ok. so you grew up in the south, in a southern state. i grew up in the south, the capital of the confederacy originally. i understand the histories and i'm transparent in saying that initially i wasn't interested in working in alabama, because i knew what my parents had told me about what happened in alabama. but the key was being able to get outside of those histories, get outside of what i had been told, and give it an opportunity-- give myself an opportunity to see what it would be like to teach in a building where klan rallies were held only a few decades ago;

what it would be like to visit a place where the n-word was used all the time. and it's been the best learning experience for me that i've ever had in my more-than-40 years, because i learned that people do change, places do change. but, at the same time, some people don't, and you have to be aware that both scenarios can be happening at the same time and not let that be a factor in your decision to do something or not do something. widen your horizons, be willing to learn, but also operate from a position of information, not ignorance. that's what communication is all about. that's what journalism is all about. you know it has been great; almost 13 years. and i would say learning from our students-- generations, the younger generation, can teach our generation how to be more open about people. we keep thinking in california we will be able to deal

with issues of diversity much better because our younger generation gets it and they're ready to run with it. and, as a result, people my age and maybe a little older are more inclined to trust in that idea because we're used to it here. we're open to that concept, at least in some parts of california. how about you, where you live? well, i-i would characterize the environment in north carolina, in terms of race relations, as not bad. i mean there has been a recent situation involving a police shooting and it doesn't get a lot of national coverage because the "system," for want of a better phrase, seemed to have worked a-- indicted the person who-- the officer who shot the person. there's a trial that's going to start soon and so there was no need to ponder why, like in the cincinnati situation, it took 15 days

or whatever to come to some conclusion about what the system should do in this particular situation. mm-hmm. so the kinds of things that are typically stereotyped with the south aren't necessarily true anymore. i mean you can sort of live where you can afford and... and very progressive in thinking in many places. um, yeah at times; i'll phrase it that way. and so it's...i choose, out of the nearly 40 years that i have been teaching, most of them have been historically black colleges. and i've chosen to stay in the south, basically, although i spent 12 years along the great lakes at other colleges and universities and things like that. so, given a choice, i prefer the south. i grew up-- i was born in rural south carolina and i like the south. now it might seem strange to some of our viewers that, you know, when you grow up in certain environments-- i grew up on the south side of chicago.

my family was poor. i understand what poverty is like, and i understand why black men feel disenfranchised in america. but i also recognize that my parents taught me the value of education and they held my feet to the fire, making sure that i constantly realized it's a lot of hard work now, but later on it will payoff and it'll improve your life opportunities. are we getting that message out enough to minority communities? because we're not seeing a lot of discussion about poor families from all cultures not really realizing the future depends on a little bit more education. i think we are doing better at that, especially nationally with the initiative called my brother's keeper. mm-hmm. we talk about males, particularly of color-- there has been a lot of attention focused on encounters with police and one of the outcomes is that was to try to have some focus on building opportunities for these men of color and one of those opportunities is education.

and so in alabama, in west alabama specifically, we have a "my brother's keeper" initiative that was focused on bringing resources that are already in the community together to say, "what can we do to increase opportunities to get through high school, get on to college, and be successful in some area of work?" and realize, it may not be the 4-year college or even the 2-year college, but to understand options and opportunities is what we're trying to provide these men. and open up new opportunities... exactly. ...and doors. exactly. and that's what we're all trying to get. we don't want to run out of time before we talk about what happened in south carolina; that shooting incident. how it touched us, and more importantly, how it changed the country it seemed like overnight about that flag, that we now longer want to see flying? did it? [laughter] i wonder. i'm going to ask you because in california we're like, "yeah! what took you so long?" what about back east and what about in texas? in texas i think we watched it along with everyone else and were absolutely heartbroken. i mean churches stand as one of the final refuges

that people can go to be "safe." watching the battle about the confederate flag was a little bit different because the confederate flag still flays and hangs and is on many trucks and belt buckles in a lot of places in texas. so it just opened up a discussion for us about what it means for someone to adopt the flag, to wear it as an emblem, and what it means to another person to see that. abilene christian, i would think a christian school would be talking about this in terms of understanding. let me give you a west coast example instead. ok. [laughter] i went to high school in albany, oregon at south albany high school where the mascot since 1974, when that school started, has been the rebels. so in oregon i went to high school with a huge mural in the gym of a confederate flag being waved by a confederate soldier. that's still the mascot, although it backed off a little bit and simplified the flag

so it's not really the battle flag anymore. you can't really tell if he's a confederate soldier but on facebook right now-- i'm friends with some of the alums from that high school-- that argument is being waged in albany, oregon; this little town that you wouldn't think this is a problem. you would think they're just looking at the south to see how they're handling it. and it's the same answers; it's the same divide. "why don't those people just leave us alone? if we would just stop talking about this, it wouldn't be a problem." or, "hey, we need to wake up and do something about this; it's making us look bad for the nation." mm-hmm. i think charleston opened up that conversation. absolutely. i'm not convinced that everything changed overnight. i think that it exposed some differences and the media attention that was brought to that community and the media attention that was brought to this ongoing festering issue got people talking, but there are still some ideas that people hold and they probably will take those ideas to their grave. we're running short on time so i want to see if there are other thoughts you want to put out there. but i'm hopeful that we can continue having dialogues.

this school at san jose state is committed, the journalism school, to keeping it going. and hopefully our pbs friends and partners will join us in this around the country. i hope we can get texas and abilene and all the other places around the country to say, "let's all get together and use the technology and talk about it." you think that's going to be possible or is it that ebb and flow? well, something happened, we talk about it; now it's not happening, let's leave it alone. well, we've been talking for decades now. i mean if you look back at the kerner commission report of the 1960s, late 60s, we've been talking for decades. and what we're looking at now i think with students that i'm teaching, the social media push-- we're looking for a little bit more than talk. we're looking for civic action, for social action, and for policy updates. i think that's the next step that we're looking forward to. media outlets are the best place for that to happen and if we can prepare students to be able to lead that kind of effort through the media, then we've been successful. now are you talking about town hall meetings or are you talking about...?

town hall meetings, news coverage, advertising campaigns, public relations strategies; all the different types of ways we get messages out, whether they are news or strategic are ways to get that conversation going. well, let's say if we can avoid the stereotypes of: in an ad, there's got to be one woman, there's got to be a person of color, and there's got to be these-- can we get away from that and start figuring out a way to include diversity as a natural? ridiculous of course. final thoughts? well, with the social media tools that are out there that all of your listeners are using, it is ridiculous for anyone to be left out of this conversation. it's going on all over around you, you just need to step in and be part of it. i'm glad we're all committed to continuing. final word? well i think this will remain an important issue. it's been that way for hundreds of years in america and we'll just have to see if at some point we can come to some...come the ground on how to improve things. but let's not be afraid to try. it wasn't difficult to invite you to come and talk about this,

and you feel very comfortable doing so. and i know there's many people here in the bay area that feel the same way and around the country. let's hope we started something that won't stop. thank you for inviting us. my pleasure. that's what we do at equal time and i thank you all for joining us and we hope you'll come back for another edition of equal time.

this is going to be controversial no matter what the title was. maybe this guy invented the computer. people who tour these galleries often say wow, i had no idea. many think computing is about engineers and mathematicians. but if you have ever shopped online or texted a friend, you know computing is about you. so why don't we know the answer to this simple question. who invented the computer? it's a simple question with a complicated answer. in this