time. i'm your host, journalism school director bob rucker. [ buzzing and music ] [background music] tattoos are becoming more and more popular in the workplace, but there are still some people who say it's not professional. >> i don't think tattoos make someone less professional. i do believe that tattoos do have to be appropriate for work. no like vulgar or derogatory tattoos. >> we'll consider different views from employers and students on tattoos in the workplace. on this edition of equal time. [ music ]

ah, times, they are changing and so are trends. tattoos are quite the eye candy for some people. the placement of the art, however, is what matters most because it can affect job opportunities. some people are lucky to be able to keep their arts in view. equal time correspondent vanessa gongora begins our coverage. >> art is beautiful. but is it worth being a human canvas? many tattoos have meaning and symbolize something special, while some people get tattoos just to have them. but before people ink their body permanently, they have to ask themselves, "is this going to hinder me in my career?" jimmy apodaca is a senior project manager for all seasons roofing & waterproofing. he does not believe tattoo should define your professionalism. >> i have tattoos myself so i don't seem to judge people due to their tattoos and showing

them at their workplace. i don't think that it has any bearing on how they perform their work. and as far as their professionalism, i don't think it has any effect. >> even though apodaca may not judge it as a body ink, others might view his a little differently. >> i mean i have some on my hands that are very noticeable. so when i'm working with people like architects and engineers, we look at blueprints and they seem to notice that right away when i'm pointing stuff out. so i have-- i can tell that there's been different reactions when they see them, so. >> tattoos are risky because in some work environments, company policy is that employees are not allowed to have visible tattoos. but even some managers and associates have tattoos. they just keep them under wraps. >> my view on tattoos in the workplace is, if it's against the rule, then obviously they can't have them. i know there are some places that have rules against visible tattoos. but my personal feeling is as long the tattoo's done tastefully and it's not obscene or, you know, may be that can be related with gang members or anything like that, i feel that

that is acceptable. >> starbucks coffee houses have been around since 1971. they recently started allowing their employees to show their body art. >> about three years ago, they weren't-- it was just like part of the policy and i think about a year ago they recently changed the policies so now they can show their tattoos at work. >> companies that do allow tattoos to be shown such as all seasons roofing & waterproofing company has strict safety programs. no gang affiliation or controversial messages allowed. >> we have strict safety programs that we have to adhere to. and those requirements are met, so tattoos do not play a part as far as the job responsibilities and duties. >> city of campbell is also open to body art. employees do not discriminate against tattoos unless they are derogatory. >> i don't think tattoos make someone less professional. i do believe that tattoos do have to be appropriate for work. no like vulgar or derogatory tattoos. a lot of my coworkers do have tattoos and they're really interesting to look at. they don't bother

me at all. i think everyone has the right to have tattoos, it kind of shows them a lot about themselves. >> the lifeguard on duty, james redmond from the city of campbell has tattoos all over his body. he said he has never gotten any negativity about them, except senior aqua ladies asking if he could ever take them off. >> tattoos in the workplace. well, i think they're very acceptable these days. i think due to a lot of celebrities and sports figures, you know, coming out and all being tattooed and stuff. i think the public has accepted them lot more. and i'm seeing more and more women and people of all ages with tattoos not just on their arms, to their back, their sleeves and legs and everywhere. >> tattoo artist brendon rose is covered body ink from the chest down to his legs. he said, "there is nothing wrong with color in the body permanently and there's

reasons for everything." >> i'm not the kind of person i think would ever say that i regret a tattoo. because a lot of the times, you know, they can represent like a time in your life. it's a way that you're feeling, maybe like a change that you made in your life and, you know, anything like that. >> tattoos have become more popular and companies and organizations are more open to hiring tatted people. >> during interviews, if someone has a tattoo and it's out there to notice, i mean i do take a look at it but i don't judge them as a person over my hiring decision based upon the tattoo. >> employers may not be so judgmental anymore but tattoos are always noticed. so it's important to be aware of what the design is and to cover up when necessary. >> when we come back, we'll take a look at what employees and students have to say about the negatives of body art in the professional world. [ music ]

[ music ] welcome back. now, take a look around sometimes and you see how many bodies are clean canvases, free of body art, and then you'll see people who have visible tattoos. but others might have their body art hidden. there may be a reason for that. vanessa gongora continues our coverage. >> tattoos are your permanent mark on your body that some employers do not accept because they want the best image for the company. in reality, people judge others everyday. it could be about what they are wearing, how they talk and even by their tattoos. >> i personally do judge people for tattoos, especially stupid ones. having tattoos to

me just seems really untrustworthy. i have twin siblings at home and i nanny and i personally wouldn't want them watch my babies. >> raven williams is a san jose student working as a nanny and she has newborn twin siblings in southern california. williams is tattoo free and would be able to find employment at many companies such as in-n-out burger and the us postal service. they won't hire those with visible tattoos because they say it is unprofessional. corporations have every right to discriminate against optional appearance related traits, which not only include tattoos but also long hair and beards. >> for example, let's say you were atheist or something and you come into a restaurant and you see someone with a really big cross on their arm, you might not feel comfortable going back to that restaurant or you just-- you might feel like their values as a christian are represented through the company. >> some people do not think about getting ink on their body because it may affect them in the long run. >> i don't have any tattoos on my body personally because-- not because i don't like them or anything, just because i don't really know it's worth putting on my body.

>> people with tattoos in the professional world can be hard to take serously and may not look approachable. >> i feel like it's different for every workplace, like --- for instance like starbucks, it's ok, because it's just like a matter of expression. but it like-- if you have like a higher job title like a ceo, i feel like it's really not professional. >> there are certain jobs where it can be ok to show off your tattoos and others where it's best to hide them. nick nobriga, an electrician for gt jordan electric incorporated says, "not only does his fellow employees have tattoos but many people in the construction industry do." he says, "tattoos are self-expression. but beliefs to be professional in certain businesses, covering them up is the way to go." >> personally, if i went to a restaurant with my girlfriend and i-- someone came up with two fold sleeves and it had maybe something gang affiliated, maybe a naked girl or something tattooed on. yeah, if i'm sitting there at dinner, i'll probably be like-- i feel like that's unprofessional. >> some people say that tattoos are distracting to the work environment. and instead of paying

attention to the business, the focus will be on the body ink. even though time has changed and more corporations and businesses are open to hiring people with visible tattoos, there are still others out there who like to keep their business looking clean. >> when we come back, we'll sit down with students and employers that either have tattoos or are against them. discussing how such art can be a problem in the workplace. stay with us. [ music ] [ music ] welcome back to this edition of equal time. today, we're going to be talking about tattoos. let's meet our guests. >> hi, my name is jimmy apodaca and i'm a senior project manager for all seasons

roofing & waterproofing and i feel that tattoos have no bearing on your professionalism in anyway. >> hi, i'm rick jensen. i'm communications director for the san jose downtown association. my organization represents the downtown business community. >> hi, i'm marco buelna and i'm a second year student at san jose state and i feel that tattoos depend on what job you have. >> hi, i'm ronnie sanchez, i'm a manager at in-n-out burger and i believe visible tattoos aren't professional. >> hi, i'm vanessa gongora and i'm producer and correspondent for this episode. >> thank you all for being here and sounds like we're going to have quite a conversation today. because we've all seen tattoos in our society, our neighbors, our families and all that. and depending on the profession you're in and the depending on your personal style, some people don't like it, some people do like it. but let's start with the basics. tattoos seem to be making a comeback. we're seeing more and more of them. general question, why? why? >> i feel it's-- it's grown in popularity because of the intensive artwork that it represents now and more of a personal meaning. i know growing up, when i was younger, i got tattoos

at a very young age and it weren't so personal. it was more of something just to do. and i believe now that there's a lot more meaning and the artwork is obviously improved. so i think that has a lot to do with the popularity and the gaining popularity. >> all right, very good. and over here i would say, what's your perspective on tattoos? >> perspective overall would probably be-- i think it just depends on what you feel personally and if you see them as unprofessional or the job you seek isn't professional, then maybe you shouldn't get them. but if it's something that means something to you and it holds value to you personally, then it's probably a good decision for you to have it. >> now, there are people out there who run businesses watching this right now saying, "but don't you understand that if it's visual, if we can see the tattoo, you might be making a statement about yourself that it's misinterpreted by someone who's about to hire you or work with you." would you agree with that? >> yeah, i totally agree. i think it's just perception is reality. so, to a customer, whatever they perceive is what they're going to-- i don't know, that just-- it has a huge

effect on whether or not they're going to make a decision to buy from you or what not, or what they think of the company in general. >> and some of this could be based on how you were brought up. i remember-- i'm a little bit older than a lot of you, so i remember my parents saying, "no, no, no, no, no, you don't want to give a bad impression and tattoos, eh, not a good thing to have on your body." is that something the business community can relate to still? >> well, you know, to me, it's a matter of what and where, right? if it's hidden, that's one thing, right, because then it's a personal expression. as a communications guy, i'm all for the freedom of speech and freedom of self-expression, right. and i think to answer that first question, society today is a lot more self-absorbed, you know, with cellphones and things like that. so we really want to stand out in some way and tattoos are a way to make that happen. where the tattoo is though does matter. there is definitely a judgment, an instant judgment, and for some people it maybe a hurdle and you need to overcome an extra step in making that so.

>> i remember when i first went into television, so this might be an early warning for you. one of the general managers and the news directors asked the question, "you don't' have any tattoos do you?" and i was "no, i don't think so." and he says, "oh good, because, you know, it just doesn't look right on television." do you worry about that as you consider your career in journalism? >> yes and no. i have tattoos myself but they are hidden because nowadays it's-- i don't know what career i wanted to go into at first. but-- then its like, "well, what if i get a tattoo in my arm and then i find something i love and they don't accept that?" so, i have tattoos that are hidden because like because some corporations or businesses don't allow that and i don't want to jeopardize my career because of that. >> very good. >> but i feel like someone-- if i see someone at a store or something with tattoos that are visible, i feel like they're-- like they're-- i feel like they're judged a lot more. like some-- one time i went to a store for example with one of my friend and she was like, "let's not go to him because he has tattoos, he looks mean." i'm like, "well, how do you know he's mean?" like you don't know he's mean, that is not-- just because he has tattoos that

mean that he's not a great worker at what he does. it doesn't define how they do their job or their duties at all. >> to our perception, or stereotype or a prejudgment of some kind. now, you're opposed to the idea of using a tattoo against somebody in the workplace environment, tell me why. >> well i feel that it has little bearing on what you actually do. i mean it's like you said, it's a perception issue and you could perceive people just from their hairstyle, from their makeup. so there's a lot of other things that you can view people as visually and judge their character based on that. so i think that pointing out one issue is-- let's say tattoos because it is the minority that does have them which is seeming to change now. i think that there are-- to me, it has no effect on how you view someone's professionalism. the way i view it is how can you do your job, how do you carry out your responsibilities and your task. that's the way i myself perceive professionalism, not based on someone's visual impression of somebody. because i think that varies. i mean if i see somebody with green

hair, i don't that person cannot handle their job in a professional manner because they chose to have a color that is not the norm. so i feel that, you know, appearance to me has very little to do with the way i judge people as far as professionalism goes. >> i agree that there are certain nitches in our work areas where people have done the tattoos all the time. the military, the construction people-- >> true. >> -- the truck drivers. it's a very heavy tattoo latent society and-- however, in the restaurant business or the accounting firms, the dental offices or the courtroom-- >> sure. >> -- tattoos are a different story i think. >> and they make it very clear, they're not welcome from what i can tell in some of these places. >> i heard a story as i was preparing for this show about a guy who grew up as a punk-rocker

and he got a tattoo on his neck and then he decided he'd go to law school. so, in his application to columbia, he, you know, they didn't have a question about tattoos. he got into columbia. he did his schooling. but he says that every time he goes into-- steps into a courtroom, he has a-- he has to overcome the fact that people are looking at his tattoo first. >> you said something earlier about, it all depends on the business and if it's appropriate, yes, and if it's not appropriate, no. but if you are a student and you get that tattoo and it's visible on your face or above your collar or something like that. in the future, you don't where your career's going to take you. isn't it a risk? >> i would definitely say it's a risk. that's why personally, i don't have any tattoos. also, i mentioned with vanessa in the discussion for the show, we talked about, i wouldn't know what to personally put on my body. not that i'm against tattoos at all, i just personally don't know what's worth putting on my body and what's worth-- if it's visible, definitely, what's worth risking my career, my future for a tattoo or for a-- something that means

something to me personal-- >> and yeah, artistic expression. there's nothing wrong with artistic expression and then there are other i call natural expressions. i can't do anything about being bald. ok. i can do something about being gray. but when it comes to tattoos, you either do it or you don't. and i'm getting the impression that for your company, they would rather, you don't. >> yeah. >> tattoos. >> yeah. if it's visible, it's like we don't like visible just because-- if i everyone were to have one visible tattoo, it would give-- well, like i was talking about like it would give just the impression, that first impression is not welcoming impression. well, it's a-- then again, it's perception but we want to make it available for everyone just to have like a welcoming experience. and especially more traditional people, older people maybe, elderly, they have really big like yes or no, like they're either for it or against

it. and if they're against it, they're obviously not going to want to do business with someone that's for it, so. >> now, does your company do research on this to see what the analytics say about this? >> i don't believe so, not that i'm aware of but we do ask people if they have tattoos and visible, so. >> and if they do and you want to hire the person, what do you suggest? what do you tell them? >> if they do, we'd ask them to remove it, you know. >> and if it's not that easy, then you don't get or hire them. >> yeah, unfortunately. >> interesting. vanessa. >> an example, i interviewed raven williams, a student here as well about this topic and she's very against it. she doesn't like them and she gave an example of how a person's tattoo can misinterpret with the company. she gave an example of such like if someone has a cross on their arm and an atheist comes in to the company, they may feel uncomfortable or may not want to come back to that company because they feel like they're affiliated with christianity and that's not something they believe. so that may not be the views

of the company, the views of the person but they may not-- they may think that it's-- as a whole. so she gave me that as an example of misinterpretation and i kind of understood that in that aspect. >> now, right here next to me is a man who oversees or connects with a lot of business people. does business spend a lot of time thinking about tattoos on their employees? >> i really don't know. that's-- i think some might and-- right, it matters to the in-n-out burger, it matters to disney, right? they don't want a mustache on an employee. so, i think they care, it matters a lot to them. but i'm not so sure in california. in san jose, it's such a big deal anymore. i still think maybe in the midwest, in more conservative areas, it's still a very big deal. >> yeah. i'm from the midwest and it is, it really much-- very much so is. but young people are starting educate folks in the midwest that-- wait a minute here, freedom of choice means this is a right of privacy, if i want to do this, it has nothing to do with my intellectual

ability or my ability to serve a public or do whatever the job is. so why should business even get involved with that? >> yeah. i think generationally, the times are changing and-- you know, and then that goes back to the courtroom, right? where you have a lot of seniors as your jurors, you know. and if you have an-- a young attorney with tats, it may affect the outcome of that trial, even, you know. and now you're dealing with lives. so-- but i agree that the tide is changing. >> so why don't we just keep it in the realm of personal expression. if you want to pay for it, you want to endure the time and all of that, that's your business. >> let's go back to what vanessa has talked about, you know, having the tattoo of a cross. there's a lot of other ways that people can express their religious views. through a turban, i mean through hats, through jewelry. so i don't think the-- you know, the example of, "oh, she has a cross and now we're--" you know, we're viewing this company as something

to do with religion. i think that's-- to me, doesn't sound right, i mean because there's a lot of other visual ways that you can do that. are you're going to ask somebody to remove their turban if they're doing a great job? because to me, that's a religious symbol and that symbolizes someone's beliefs. >> exactly-- >> so i mean how do you go about that? do you tell him that you're not allowed to work here because you wear that-- that hat? >> i'm curious to know, when you were in school growing up. tattoos. talked about, not talked about, seen as cool, not cool. >> they are seen as cool, i got my first tattoo at 17. so i wasn't even allowed to get one but my mom took me. my mom, "so what do you want for your birthday?" i was supposed to go get a nose piercing but i ended up getting a tattoo. my dad was not happy -- we hid it from him as much as i-- as long as i could until one of my friend's parents went and told him. not even my mom-- like it was sad to know and then he came unto to me and said, "i'm very disappointed." and i was like, it was the worst thing you hear from a parent. like he was just, "why?" like, "what does that mean?" like-- and he just was very disappointed. he doesn't like-- and he doesn't have any-- and when i got-- i have a cross my back, he was like, "if you want a cross, i can just give you one."

>> interesting. >> yeah. and he was like, "why didn't you just ask for one?" and i was just like, "oh, ok, like so." it was hard because my mom was-- likes them and she-- as long as their covered, she said, there's nothing wrong with it. and then my dad was just like, "no." >> so in your own home, you have a different point of view from mom and dad. two of the leaders in the family and both having different perspectives on it. >> yeah. >> so when you go out of the world, you may likely face that same dual challenge. what does that say to you? you went ahead and got tattoos you said. >> yeah. >> but you make sure they weren't seen? >> yes. >> was that done because you're worried about your future? >> yes. i did it for my career because i now wanted to go into journalism after high school. and as for tv, you have to be clean and i haven't seen anyone yet like that has tattoos on the news or anything. just for my sake i think. >> yeah, traditional-- >> yeah. >> -- you don't see it. >> yeah. >> but you go to youtube, you'll see some people in a-- >> of course. >> -- in a variety of other video means-- >> it's more of careful for me. >> yeah, it makes sense. when you were doing the story research, what made you want to do this?

>> like i said-- there's-- like that one time i told you i'm with friend and we enter a plate store and she made that comment. it kind of rose attention to me because i mean i have tattoos and i have friends that have visible tattoos, others with tattoos and i don't think it defines their professionalism as jimmy said. and just-- it bothered me and i wanted to do more research on it. >> and just to be clear, this is a business that's booming right now-- >> yeah. >> -- in this country, people are making money. and so, if it's something that is a personal expression or artistic expression, they have every right to do it, so it exists. >> but i found that research, it said that if you are not born with that or if it's your choice of adding something on, that they have every right to discriminate you. and i thought that was interesting. i just-- i don't know. i don't know. >> well, let's ask our guest. >> is this a form of discrimination when people say, like you just said, you know, some business, yes, but they say no, i'll respect that. well, are they discriminating against people? >> i wouldn't say they're discriminating, i think they're just trying to protect their best interest, keep the company's best interest at heart. you know, you don't want to say

certain tattoos are ok, maybe some are there, let's say you have your mom who passed away and she means something to you obviously and you got a tattoo of her. that maybe is appropriate to one businessman. but let's say the next person has a tattoo of something gang related or something inappropriate and something sexual. they can't just say only certain tattoos. so in general, maybe they just say ban all tattoos. that way they don't discriminate from tattoo to tattoo. >> and there's another perspective on this. i understand a third of all young people 18 to 25 have tattoos. but something's gonna happen to you called aging. and that aging process is gonna stretch that tattoo out. and it's gonna make it look a whole lot different from the day you first got it. should they be concerned about that? because i have seen that happen. (laughs) (multiple voices) oh i am --- i'm scared. --yeah that's scary! i personally, like vanessa, got them underage. and they do stretch, like you said. >>yeah. so it is of concern. i have it happening now to where it gets to a point where you have to either redo them or change them. so i mean thats just part of -- thats part of the deal of getting tattoos.

but -- i wanted to ask and see what you guys feel about it -- do you think that the views of your company -- particularly you mentioned that they don't allow it, do you think their policy or their views are changing now? because like you said, one-third of the younger generation has them, do you think that their stance on tattoos, you know, visibly in a workplace is going to change with the change in society as far, you know, the popularity? >> i see it in the individuals as when it comes to manager to manager. but as far as the business itself, i don't. just because they don't change according to the times and whatnot, as far as i've seen so far. they've been really strict on how they do business the past 60 years. so -- right now i don't see them changing that anytime. and i think that would be -- i think -- have your views changed? oh yeah -- my views -- my views kind of changed just because. i just think that we need to remember that we're all people here, you know what i mean?

and -- and you don't judge a person by their cover it's what you see inside, you know. but with tattoos there's just something about it -- that people -- you know -- a daisy on the -- or a mom or something like that is a whole lot different than a swasticka or tear drops around the eye. you know --- so keep everything in perspective is what you're saying. >> yeah. >>very good. and give a person a chance. >>absolutely. >> wonderful conversation. thank you for doing this. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> and thank you for joining us. we hope you'll come back for another edition of equal time. [ music ]

you can build your app on the next platform. he joined as chairman and ceo in 2001. tonight smit talks about the plans as a computing revolutionary. major funding for revolutionary is provided by the intel corporation. >> let me start off by asking you if you remember the first time