tv Tavis Smiley PBS March 2, 2017 6:00am-6:31am PST
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good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. the role of the public election on you society is more important now than ever before. believing that political issues are too important to be left only to politics. slavoj zizek is considering a global rock star when it come to philosophical debates whether through the rerelease of his text in defensive lost causes for forthcoming work lennon 2017. the slovenian native frames the world as we know it through his marxus lens. a conversation with slavoj zizek coming up right now.
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including his 2008 text, in defense of lost causes, and lennon 2017. later this spring, always honored to have him on this program, the brilliant philosopher, slavoj zizek. how are you sir? >> i'm well. otherwise i'm in a bad mood. i'm well because i'm glad to be here. >> otherwise you're in a bad mood. i'm glad to have you here anyway. i'm going to put you in a further bad mood, maybe, i don't know. a surprise, maybe not knowing how your mind works, just before the election of donald trump, we are told that you gave an interview to channel 4 and in that interview you were asked if you were a u.s. citizen, whether or not you would vote for donald trump. you said would you. i'm quoting now, the most prominent philosopher in the world is horrified, your word, horrified at trump. but axb bright side, handing hi
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the keys to the oval office and the nuclear codes would trigger a bigger wakening, your words, big awakening in american politics. why do you think that handing mr. trump the keys to the nuclear code, which he now has, would be or is now a big awakening for american politics? >> well, i think that trump is, i totally agree here, trump is a fact to whether it may be to future of humanity on the earth and so on. but i think -- i'm a pessimist in a much deeper sense. i think where we were all, in the united states weren't moving, we are moving towards a certain end point. problems with refugees. threat of new economic
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catastrophes. new racism in the united states. europe is much worse. maybe it was a mistake. what immediately came to my mind, i just think that we should never forget one thing, trump is an effect. an effect of all that bass wrong with mainstream liberal politics. trump is a reaction to it. so the way to really fight trump is not to fight trump, if you just fight trump you are doing what in medicine they call, if i get it correctly, optimal healing. you just ease the pain. we must find the cause of it. and that's what bothered me although he may be a nice person and so on, but her coalition, her rainbow coalition let's call
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it, was an incredible one. from wall street to occupy wall street. everybody was there. and i think she stood for what was wrong with the democratic politics. you make all the concessions to politically correct and so on and so on, just not to address the key economic question. and that's what gave birth to trump. that's why i'm also a big fan of bernie sanders. one might disagree with this or that about bernie sanders, but you know, he did what everyone thought it's not possible. he mobilized precisely those disappointed white workers who otherwise voted for trump. that's my, i think it is so again -- sorry, back to trump. my idea is that if democratic party remains what it is, this liberal establishment let's call
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it, even if we win over this trump there will be another trump. in europe we have the same problem, my god. the key problem today is this. this impotence, whatever you call it, of this, let's call it liberal left sector, whatever. this is the predominant force today. you know, all the big names and so on are very progressive about lbgt and so on. but you don't touch cal capitalism and so on. we have to do this. and i'm not talking about communism or whatever, and just a little bit of a towards the left in the sense of human rights, workers rights. if we don't do this, if we don't oez so ñiñion, doesn't matterñiñli if we get r this trump, another trump will come.
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europe will come. europe is full of trumps and so on and so on. i'm pretty desperate here. you know, i really think we are approaching catastrophe again. economic, social catastrophe. immigrant and so on. look at europe. this politically correct approach of liberal left, just let's talk about immigrant but let's change it into a humanitarian issue. do europeans have a car, have to have them, instead of address the true cause. then you get what? the catastrophe that is now europe. in germany, h france, in england. i don't think, but maybe i was wrong, it is not a principal decision. this logic always vote for the worst guy because in this way you will have -- no, i thought maybe i'm wrong but nonetheless, with all its faults, united
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states and a great country with many institution and so on and so on and things are happening that is a great debate within the democratic party. another thing in the beginning happening for example and extremely important thing. and revitalization of women in the millions as political factor. it wasn't only here. it is all around the world and so on and so on. expect more of this. >> i guess the question is, i hear your critiques. i hear your critique of american liberalism. i would make one distinction. the democratic party is hardly american liberalism. >> what you think about -- >> and have very little room for progressives. that is played out in this debate. stz that's my point. >> i hear that. i hear that. i guess kwet is, whether or not the ends justify the means. which is to say, in the first month or so of his presidency,
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have you started to rethink whether or not your initial thought was correct or incorrect, with what you have seen him do so far? >> no. i think -- >> you still think giving hip the keys him the keys is a good idea? >> things here are complex. i don't think that trump is simply a mad man who will just press the button. there are arguments and i understand why some are horrified by trump. but the style of how he talks, it is an incredible degradation of public discourse. how we are allowed to publicly speak. and here i am for, i'm sorry to say this, for good manners. maybe you can to some
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experience, when we were young, i'm old are than you, i remember. politicians were talking this noble language and we left these provokesing f words, whatever. now it is opposite. you go to the right and we left to propose ourself, we are the true moral majority. we stand for the ordinary decency good sense of common people and so on and so on. so that's for me one of the, one among, through catastrophes of donald trump. incredible degradation of public discourse. and not only trump. how some five, ten years ago, prohibited in public space. you couldn't say that. now we can tell them. i think that we, that's my pessimism. let's say hillary were to win.
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of course it would have been better in many domains. but isn't it that it is satisfaction okay we have the worse so we can good on the way with it? i'm too much of a pessimist for that, if you ask me.d on the wa with it? i'm too much of a pessimist for that, if you ask me. on the way with it? i'm too much of a pessimist for that, if you ask me. but again, i can be converted. it was not a principle decision, always vote for the guy, i just hope that maybe i was wrong. but it is my fear now, and it may interest you and the public, i have another fear and this would be a true argument fwens me, my god, what if at least for a couple of years trump is, somehow manage to help economy. not totally break with mexico. and it may work for a couple of years. you know.
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>> i hear your point. in american politics, there is always about how republicans or democrats, how left or right they might be, they tack back to the middle. so my thought is donald trump at some point will tack back to the middle and act some some sense with good measure. here is the question that you raised for me. i think you're right. if he has so degraded and demonized the very nature of how we engage in public discourse, assuming that it takes public discourse, that we have to have some sort of conversation in the public square to get this thing right, if that well has been poisoned, how do you have the conversation? if all the rules of how we engage in conversation with our leaders has changed, how do you have a conversation? >> i might crazy hope, maybe i'm wrong, that precisely as
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reaction to trump, that there is a unique change with a radical, they should shamelessly address also ordinary descent people who are other wise afraid of the left and so on and so on. our message should be, listen. we are the true voice of modern majority christian values and so on. even family -- like excellent argument that remember years ago when reagan spoke about family values, and no, conservative christian values and if you mean anything minimally serious by family values, and support and so on then reagan omices speak more to destroy families, sorry, family values than all of the lbgt or whatever you want all of them together.
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>> i think that that's the crux of the matter. i think that just keeping trump at bay and protecting this is not enough. then we are still sliding towards a catastrophe. >> let me read this. your lennon 2017 book is coming out later this year. i want to read a quote from steve bannon who we know well in the white house. the quote from bannon about lennon. bannon says and i quote, i'm a lennonist. lennon wanted to destroy the state and that's my goal, too. i want to bring everything crashing down and destroy all of today's establishment, closed quote. that's what bannon felt about linnon and that's what he feels about the establishment in the u.s. of a. what do you think of that comment? >> the lennon i like and if the lennon after the revolution and
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civil war when the bull veolshe in power, now how do we reorganize the daily life. what left for me from venezuela it everywhere, even in greek, and so on, they are big at bringing together 1 million people and we cry with them. but for me, the true test of fortses is what i call this post alcoholic nightmare. the morning after. it is easy to gather 1 million people but -- >> oh sure, sure. >> at some point things return to normal. >> that's right. how ordinary people then feel the difference. that's the problem. does the left have an actual answer here. they protest. how to reorganize society and so on. i will give you an example, many popular capital here and v for
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vendetta. you remember, at the end, people penetrate the british parliament. people take over and what happens then? the end. nice to say sorry for tasteless metaphor. i'm ready to sell my brother into slavery. god bless her, she is dead so i can say, to see a movie called v for vendetta part 2. but what happens when the people take over? what measures do they do? do they nationalize what they do? i think this is really the crux of the matter. >> but there are a lot of people on the left who would ask you, stand there and ask you, what do they do? if the republicans control the house and republicans control the senate about to control the supreme court they control the white house. the average ordinary citizen doesn't feel empowered. they don't feel like they have the agency to actually do anything about this until there is another election in a couple of years. what do people do? >> okay.
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my first kouptcounter point wou have been, people feel they are not in power under previous democratic administrationes. that's why trump won. that's why i'm only saying that's my mantra. deeper change is needed. it is nouf sling is back and that's why i was 45 and by what nancy pelosi said a couple of weeks ago. i think they basically renormalize the situation. listen, it happened from time to time. we should have eigfor eight yea. time come back? no, it will not. i want to heed, in democratic party, maybe if would not happen and realizing it has it move more to left -- >> wait, wait. >> where's the problem? when bernie tried that who you and i both like, he failed. >> almost failed. but he began something. >> he began something.
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>> the first mobilization. >> and the next test was for the democratic party just days ago when they had -- and they failed again. so the point is, i'm all for fighting. i'm with you and samuel beckett. try again, fail again, fail better. try again, fail again, fail better. i'm with beckett on that. but when they use the agencies that they do have and at this level keep getting beaten down because nancy pelosi normalized or dnc isn't come in their favor or persony gets picked on by the republican party then they lose hope. >> i agree with you. i'm basically a pessimist. but what is your solution? we have democratic party as -- with donald trump, then we are not. >> i agree. i agree. >> we should go on bernie -- the
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cultural thing now i think is to bring bernie, what bernie stands for, our revolution or whatever, together with all black movement and so on. and we have do a great long-term work here. po for example, remember black lives matter and then the answer of donald trump and some others not just black lives. all lives matter. >> blue lives matter. all lives matter. >> yes. you know why, because in general this is of course true. but the specific violence of the system be, can you grasp it only in that case of black lives. and i will give you another example here. so you don't think i have any respect for donald trump, you remember when it was the debate about who is more guilty, either
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black demonstrators with some mad men shot a couple of policemen or white policemen who overstepped the --s sur >> sure. >> and trump talked about it. trump's idea was no. the ultimate crime is when people are shooting policemen because they attack -- no, i claim. the utmost is policemen shoot. or you know why? because if an ordinary fwie shoots a policemen, it is implorable and shouldn't be done. but somebody outside the law attacks the agent of the law. but if an agent of the law attacks, it is -- the whole line disintegrates. the state agent acts as a common criminal. that's why there is no symmetry here. this is one of those situations where it is too easy to say they
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are both wrong. and demonstrate attack is policemen. no, they are not wrong in the same way. true catastrophe is police doing that and so on and so on. let me give you, this may be of some interest to your viewers, what is happening now in europe. i consider it so ridiculous that if it wouldn't be the ultimate horror i would be laughing. you know what's now, and tragedy, this is no longer some marginal, this is a theory, reported in white media. they claim that the conflict between palestinian an israelis is fake. it is made to cover up the fact that immigrants who are invading europe are organized by -- it is this totally crazy idea. and now you say but this is marginal and what is this to do with trump? it has a lot. because some people raround
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trump, it is not a paradox cal nokes, it is a reality. z zionist anti-semmites, the same people against jews here, blah blah blah, are absolutely for israel. and what people are doing around trump and so the whole political, how to put it, political mapping is changing. with something really new and again, my point is let's repeat it again. we cannot do this by simply remaining -- >> why do you think that so many good white folk on the left have the right values but are disconnected from the everyday lives of everyday people? >> i think that the reasons are
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mostly simply economic. everything in that sense, i think that's the lesson of bernie sanders for me. you know, even if they are this white leader and they may be here, but you know what always bothered me is if you look at this political who claim not lbgt, lbgt -- >> they are all politically correct. but the volume is back -- what makes me so suspicious is this extra urgency how they envision and it is everyday secretly know they are and they have to exaggerate at this formal level. so something so terribly fake about all this school and when i call my friend like you black and not african-american, i'm already racist aep so nd so on
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on. it is a comfortable position to focus on this problem and avoid problems. you must know this better than me. in last years martin luther king, jr. -- >> of course. >> and again, i'm not arguing for this out of some crazy twisted radical left idea. no. i just think that if we don't move the whole thing a little bit towards the left, itself will not survive. what is best in liberalism? lessons of tolerance, women's rights and so on, can only survive through a move to the left. >> i'll leave it there. i feel like i'm just getting started on that last point. but you take his point. i'm always honored to have you on this program. >> i'm very glad to be here. >> you come again. >> i consider you, i'm not saying this in vein, we met briefly, one of the few people
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whom i consider -- whom i see as my friends here. i'm so sick of this full of career pursuing academia and so on and so on. i pray to god you survive here. >> that's why we're friends. that's why you are welcome back on this show any time. >> thanks. >> we will always continue to have these conversations. >> thanks for watching. as always, keep the faith. ♪ ♪ ♪ for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> hi, i'm tavis smiley join me next time for a conversation with actress jane cazmera. that's next time. we will see you then.
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. good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. tonight we celebrate harry belafonte's 90th birthday, award-winning singer actor and author has been a guest on this program numerous times over our 14 seasons. we will revisit some of those memorable appear uns as well as celebrate his life as an artist and activist. we are glad you joined us. our special birthday celebration it harry belafonte in just a moment. ♪ ♪ ♪
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