good evening from new york, i'm tavis smiley. 50 years ago, dr. martin luther king delivered his speech, "beyond vietnam" at the riverside church, minutes away from this studio. it was a courageous speech. one based on justice and compassion. tonight, we continue our week long discussion commemorating the anniversary of dr. king's speech, speaking with special guest about his anti-war, projustice theme, and gauging where america falls on the triple evil of militarism. our friend, harry belafonte. we are glad you joined us. this is coming up in a moment.

hands by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. harry belafonte is an icon

whose albums solidified him in music, but also known for his commitment to civil rights issues. he joins us as we continue our week long discussion of dr. king's beyond vietnam speech. glad to have you in your neck of the woods this time. >> it's a good moment for me. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> back with smiley. >> i'm getting big in new york with you. since i last saw you, you turned 90. as you know, we did an entire show dedicated to a celebration of your 90th birthday with the best clips of your appearances. that will go in the catalog down the road for your 100th birthday. happy belated 90th birthday. >> thank you. >> all right. i'm coming. hold on, i'm coming.

all right. 50 years ago, today, your friend, dr. king, was in this city at the riverside church to deliver the most controversial speech of his life, "beyond vietnam." i want to start with just a quote from that speech to get the conversation started, if i might. this is king in "beyond vietnam" 50 years ago today. men do not easily assume the task of opposing their governments policy, especially in time of war, nor does the human spirit move without great difficulty against the apathy of conformist thought within one's own bus um and surrounding world. men don't assume the task of opposing their government's policy. what did martin find the fortitude to be so bold 50 years

ago today? >> i remember very distinctly the great struggle he had with making that speech. many people thought it would be divisive, like black patriotism is being tested after experiencing a history of brutality and physical oppression and slavery. you are always looked upon that moment when we would rebel against the state. one of the ways which the evidence was going on in that war in vietnam. it was a wall that should never have been. once the french were defeated, one would have suspected that conflict of the vietnamese people would have ended, but it

didn't. rather than let it go, kennedy, johnson later on, stepped in and escalated our involvement in a war that was independence. dr. king felt strongly, trying to overthrow a burden of foreign domination. we were dominated by the chinese, then came the french. now america was stepping into the space on to fighting against global communism. the truth of the matter, dr. king felt strongly about self-determination was the right the vietnamese people earned. wu once they defeated the french, they thought they had an open gate to a new state, a sense of independence. he conditioned that reality along with the reality of civil

rights movement because numerically, black soldiers were most to -- most groups volunteering to be of service and were very much on the front lines. dr. king thought that war was in direct conflict and historical interest of america, but potential that this nation had that it was never living up to, which is what the speech at the church did, why we cannot be silent at this moment, why we should speak up and he really felt that that was a critical moment for us in this movement because it's not only attested to patriotism but attested to a sense of morality, a sense of

decency and a sense of what should have been. as it turned out, not only did we not win that war, one of the final analysis the vietnamese people have done exactly what they wanted to do in the beginning, which is state their own condition, think the way -- exist. what america did was to get involved in something that was not to our best interest. what black america did was in the final rebel against the war through the voice of dr. king. there were those who tried to make it an act in the absence of patriotism, which is not the case. i think the black condition always found itself in this place of ambivalence. on one hand, you experience the kind of historical oppression we

experience. at the same time, where are asked the defend the country, right or wrong. dr. king took the position of i feel deeply committed to the idea that america is trying to live up to or i don't think that we'll continue this into the best interests. they have a right to stand-up because they are the first to die and the most to die in that conflict. i think his position was a good one and pivotal one. >> it was pivotal and it was good from your perspective and perspective of others. as you know, that speech was not greeted that way by the press or the body politics. they pushed back on martin king really, really hard. people turned against him. he was ostracized.

the last year of his life, april 4, '67 or until they killed him in '68 there was difficulty as you know. share what those personal conversations were like once he gave the speech and all hell broke loose. i know dr. king could only confide in certain people but he was pained, deeply pained by the response to the speech. >> i think he anticipated, not to the extent it turned out to be. i think he anticipated there would be a backlash and that it was not only an excellent moment for the opposition to step in and discredit the civil rights movement, but to discredit the credentials of our movement itself about the fact we were with the unpatriotic and not

standing with our nation at the time in that conflict. dr. king knew that our movement was at the most supreme, the supreme test. if we could survive that moment, morally impaerative america tak a position. we were at war fighting for our rights and fighting for our independence and our freedom as a voice, as a people in the nation and if it were the vietnamese fighting for the same thing under this historical circumstances and conditions. he was unapologetic but he took great time to try to explain what the history of the vietnamese. i don't think i could be as studious and focused on what to say as he was in the way he researched that speech. >> as you know, a very rare

occasion, not just research, but a rare occasion where he took the time to make the case. he had to read the speech. that night, from beginning to end, he had to read it because he had to take the time to make that case that only he could make in that way. >> to make the case and make sure that he didn't miss the points. >> exactly. >> he was great. really spoke from text. >> right. >> he had short notes to keep refreshing it. he was a great student. >> right. >> therefore, what he blended our domestic strife with the international seed, he found himself in a position that reflected the feelings of a lot of people in the developing world. his take on africa, on foreign policy, on things we were doing.

he likened our struggle in black america to be like the struggle of all people of color who seek to have independence whether in the caribbean or asia and he felt this automatic alliance. it was to the best interest of what america stood for and he thought he was game, historically, the upper hand in that debate. i think history has proved him to be correct. >> no doubt about that. yet, there was a great deal of kons mags, that's putting it mildly, about the fact martin stepped outside his lane of civil rights and human rights and they pushed back on him about that. you received that pushback in your own life. how did he and how have you navigated, as black men, stepping outside the box, stepping outside the lane that you have been prescribed? martin was told, nobody asked

you about foreign policy. stick to what we allow you to talk about. he wouldn't stay in that box. you certainly, in your career, have not stayed in that box. speak to me about how you don't stay in the lane people prescribed for you. >> to put it simple, it's not true we have no right to discuss foreign policy because it is the reason we are here as an oppressed people. a terrible policy to have the right because of slavery has become a practice of that failed social life. we have been living out the ramifications of a foreign policy. nobody has a right to speak about foreign policy more than black people. maybe native americans do. but i think what dr. king felt inappropriate but he felt if he did not do that, how would he be

able to speak to almost any other issue since america was in great thrones with the struggle of ideology, the cold war, the soviet union, trying to convince the world, the nation to be emlated, while at the same time, there's still lynching and murdering black people in this country. i think opportunity knew by stepping into that space he put to issue racial oppression on a higher play for debate. that was the eternal complaint of many africans was our cause. dr. king, once he came to know people who came in and spent a lot of time with dr. king, he

laid out african policy and our history on the slave portion of that history. what was going on, he found nothing much had changed in the american attitude toward people who were being brutalized, mostly because of race. race was not the sole issue, greater economic issue. race played a key because you are identified and oppressed by nature. >> speaking of race, i mentioned earlier, king advanced the notion of what he called a triple threat in this beyond vietnam speech 50 years ago today. racism, extreme materialism and militarism. i want to read a quote, again, from the "beyond vietnam" speech

delivered at the riverside church 50 years ago today. i quote, i am con vinlsed if we get on the right side of the world revolution, we, as a nation, must undergo a radical revolution of values when machines and computers motives and property rights are considered more important than people. the giant triplets of racism, militarism are incapable of being conquered. i wonder if you would say a word about what king was raising then and what he wrestled with 50 years later the need for america to undergo a revolution of values. >> i think what dr. king understood and in part of those feelings to the rest of us, he shared many of his thoughts, if not all, was the fact that until

this country really and fully makes a commitment to discuss and debate race issues as a concept, as a practice in our midst, this country will never be able to feel not only ancient wounds that will never be able to fulfill. this has become a great democratic state. if you look at the foreign policies and the things we did, we supported enemies of freedom, enemies of independence. come to the aid of nations. it's to the left. talk about america and what our

constitution represents from an intellectual perspective, nothing is more left than the constitution states. i know that jefferson had slaves and we had been through that. the truth of the matter is the vision of the forefathers, all issues considered to be extreme left thoughts, all men are created equal, equal pay, equal rights, et cetera. all things playing out was seated in dr. king that we are like so many others that are, what he called the world revolution because we didn't just stand apart as black americans. some of the issues we faced was specific to us because we lived inside the belly of the slave, almost everyone else who had a slave history had freed themselves through violent confrontation and independence.

countries in africa and latin america. once those slaves and those environments became independent, they became whole nations. they had an identity. they could call themselves brazilians and haitians and jamaicans with a sense of history and a sense of the right to exist. here, we have never been able to overcome at once. i am an american. i do not do that without am big wens. i have to say the quick exchange through the mental gyrations, what am i, really? what is an american? what does it mean to a person of color to be an american under the conditions we were forced to defend that title. it doesn't make sense. we find ourselves tripping on

the words we speak and the things we say because you never squared that issue. i don't know, really and truly, what i have expected to do other than what it is that we do. constantly fight for the right to be human. >> somebody once said to me that black folk have learned to love america in spite of, not because of. that comes to mind listening to you wrestle with this notion of what it means to be american in the skin that you are in. you subscribe to that notion we have come to love this country in spite of, not because of? >> i find myself recently saying the following, i am not proud of the idea that america pretends to be something it is yet to achieve because i genuinely

believe that we, as a people, have no identity. when i look at students today who are enjoying the fruits of the civil rights movement, it certainly benefits -- i'm aware of the fact that the absence of a black voice today that clearly speaks out against what the current leadership in this country are doing. trump is doing to not only the nation, but speecifically to black interest. i'm befuddled by the fact there isn't a greater protest, a greater presence of black resis tense to what he says. this says something about what has happened to us. what happened to the cause of our struggle.

what happened to those that are being reversed so brutally by the existing government and existing leadership. so many things that you gain as a civil rights movement. all that stuff about severe attack. no rebuttal coming from the community. when i speak to the community, it does not know what it wants to call it. it's caught between ambitions of being rich and being all the things that -- [ inaudible ] it's free to be equal. that's coming to america, what

it did and what it still does. >> as many times as you have been on this program, there's never enough time. i could talk to you for days on end given all the wisdom you have to share. let me offer this as the exit question. 50 years after the "beyond vietnam" speech and talks about racism, poverty and militarism. in your 90th year of living, what's the outlook? what do you see on the horizon for america as it continues to wrestle with this triple threat? >> oh, they are not youngsters. when i speak to people like bryan stevenson and people like james bell. when i speak to young men and women in the communities of the nation and the cities, or i listen to young guys in transformative periods, they don't want the gang culture

anymore. i tell you that our countryside has intelligence, bright young men. whether you stick and duck, there will never be another dr. king or another jesus christ, but now and then we get lucky. some in the horizon are standing by, waiting to step into the space. it's quite empty at the moment. >> every one of us is doing our best to imlate you. thank you. >> you can do better. >> no, no, no. thank you for your great example. i thank you for being a living amiss l of living a life of character. >> thank you. >> thank you. thank you, sir. >> i listen to you every night. some nights are better than others. >> on that note, get out of here.

that's the show -- only a friend can say that. that's our show tonight. thanks for watching back here tomorrow night with jeremy scahill. until then, thanks for watching and keep the faith. for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> i'm tavis smiley. join me as we continue the week long discussion commemorating the anniversary of the beyond vietnam speech with jeremy scahill. that's next time. see you then.

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