good evening from new york. i'm tavis smiley. 50 years ago, dr. martin luther king jr. delivered his speech, "beyond vietnam" at the riverside church minutes away from this studio. it was a call to conscience, detailing the countries ideals and mapping an alternative future, one based on justice and compassion. tonight, we continue the week long discussion commemorating dr. king's speech. speaking with a special guest about the anti-war, projustice theme and gauging where america falls 50 years later on racism, poverty and militarism. tonight's guest, jeremy scahill. we are glad you joined us. jeremy scahill, in just a moment.

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. joined tonight by jeremy scahill, investigative reporter,

war correspondent, author and editor of the online news, the intercept. good to have you here. >> thank you. >> before i jump into particulars about the speech, you had a chance to read it, of course, over the years. what do you make of the parallels of the remarks king made 50 years ago and where we are now? >> first of all, if you really read the speech and listen to it, this was a meticulous, political, analysis that was being offered by dr. king. it was, like many sophisticated analysis, it was prophetic and timeless. the war at home and the war on brown people and poor people and people of color around the world. if you look at our political

context today, we have a president in donald trump, who is gutting social programs and exponentially increasing the military budget. what is the most fundamentally true aspect of that speech is dr. king talked about an american addiction to militarism and if it wasn't addressed in the early stages was going fleurish and it has. we are now in seven or eight wars right now on the ground in syria and iraq. those wars are getting worse. we started a campaign that killed 1,000 civilians in the month of march alone, ratcheting up somalia and yemen and the liberal, economic war around the world. all of that was foretold in the analysis of dr. king. it's under both democrats and republicans. obama was a very militaristic president despite the fact he was the first black president and campaigned that they was going to be transparent.

he started multiple wars. dr. king's speech should be viewed in how we have allowed this complex to become the single most entity in american society. >> before i go to the speeches, a couple quotes i want to share with the audience and get your take on them, 50 years later. since you made this reference to obama and how wretched he was, in many ways on war and foreign policy, you recall nine years ago when obama got elected there were people everywhere wearing t-shirts with obama and dr. king's face. obama is a politician, king is a prophet. we will see how obama stacked up on the score card, racism and poverty. we could have a full show on where obama stood on racism, poverty and militarism. you have already graded him on militarism. what do you say to people who

have gotten lost in that relationship, that narrative they want to run putting king and obama together and suggesting obama is the fulfillment of dr. king's dream? >> outside the fact they were both incredible aur tors, both black and both won the nobel peace price, there are few similarities between dr. king and president obama. president obama chose to ascend to a throne being in control of nuclear weapons. he had the authority to do what he promised, closing graun ton moe, improving the lives of the poor and the black people in this country. by almost every metric, he failed, except comparing him to donald trump. i think people make a fundmental mistake by not allowing dr. king's political legacy to be as complex as it really was. quoting the "i have a dream" speech, it was one of the least

powerful speeches dr. king gave. i say that as a student of his political writings and speakings. if rosa parks, if her true history is what is taught and celebrated, that she was not a random old african-american who refused to go to the back of the bus, but rather a trained, tactical activist, would she be celebrated in the way she is today? if dr. king, "beyond vietnam" speech, if those were the speeches that were taught in schools and not just the idea, i want my children to go play with white children, that's politics. dr. king was not about state politics and paid dearly with his life because he did the unthinkable. he connected race, class and militarism. that's an epic, do not do. >> my friend calls it, what is the term? the santa clausification of dr.

martin luther king. he calls it the santa clausification of dr. king 50 years later. >> at one point, when the dr. martin luther king holiday was proposed, racists came out and opposed it for the reasons they opposed dr. king in the day. now, you can't find a racist. they want to celebrate him as their republican. this had been facilitated, though, by democrats and republicans, including president obama. this idea that we should only celebrate part of dr. king's legacy. he was awarded the nobel peace prize at a time he was standing up against a white supremacist, powerful institution in the world and used his platform to advocate against a war that he said will lead to endless wars. barack obama was awarded the nobel peace price while initiating the longest sustained

bombing campaign the world has ever seen in the country of yemen. he was doubling down on the worst aspects of bush-cheney regimes. most devastating, barack obama normalized and legitimized or sought to the institution of assassination as american policy. dick cheney couldn't have asked for a better president from the democrats than barack obama over the eight years because of the t-shirts with liberals and king. they went to sleep during the eight years of obama. a lot of stuff happen thad is allowing donald trump to move the world closer to unthinkable war scenarios. >> you raised the nobel peace price speech. there was a part of the speech where he gives king a shoutout because he knows king proceeded him. he gives king a shoutout, then does the heisman with dr. king

and mushes back on him and the notion of just war. what about the notion of just war that obama and others tried to leverage? he said to me, what they are saying is dr. king in nonviolence is a decent theoeor but king didn't no hezbollah or hamas. they suggest his nonviolent notions wouldn't work in a world today. >> there's little new in warfare except technology. that's oversimplified. the accurate reading in the times king lived. if you listen to the speech we are talking about, beyond vietnam, he is talking about the knew wa nuances about the failures of western, cloolonial powers. king also, this is why i say he was such an astute, political thinking and strategist. he talked about the nuances of

vietnam and the minority communist influence within the broader context saying it was the united states and french that ultimately made them the vanguard of the struggle against foreign occupation. the samage analogies can be drawn. it is a chief driving support for the movements that barack obama was talking about. so, you know, i don't believe any of us could say this is what king would say today. it was unfair and gratuitous application of a certain form of amorality that barack obama threw on martin luther king that wasn't there. also, dr. king's grasp of theology and the just war theory was impeccable. i grew up in a religious catholic theology family and i'm familiar with the war theory and some of my father's friends who

were three lonlg ans is it's limited to almost no wars being just. i think that king believed in the revolutionary nonviolence of jesus as told through the gospel, but he was tactical. he didn't embrace passivism. they embraced it on a tactical means of confronting a well armed regime that would outshoot it any day of the week. it wasn't simply dr. king believed in turning the other cheek. tactically, the best way to victory against imperial forces with heavy fire power was to be willing to sacrifice your own life in a moral stamp, but also with politically very, very smart. >> what do you make of the fact that pass fist, martin luther king jr. comes to new york 50

years ago, riverside church, a few minutes from this studio and says that my government is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today. >> he was correct. you know, russia right now in syria is competing with the united states for the most ruthless killer of civilians in that country, isis as well. that's not good company for the united states to be in. at the time dr. king spoke in 1967, united states was engaged in the most intense scorched earth campaign in vietnam, increasingly engaged in a covert war in cambodia, overthrown governments in central latin america in 1953 with the overthrow of the war in guatemala, the overthrow of iran. you have later the assassination of bumba. the world of king was looking at not just who dropped the most bombs. he was talking the lethal cocktail of the iron fist of

u.s. militarism and the kind of hand of neoliberals economic policy. i would say the most important pieces of that speech were this one "beyond vietnam" and the farewell address of eisenhower. what he was talking about is when you link corporate profits to an expansion of war and a proliferation of weapons, there will be no incentive to pursue policies of peace. that's why our political system is broken. it's bought and paid for by the war industry. both democrats and republicans, they have no incentive to do war. they have every incentive to find a nail for all the hammers they are creating. >> you referenced this earlier, how, then, do we understand, how do we view the effort by mr.

trump, president trump, to increase the military budget? >> first of all, in terms of the military budget, trump is going to run on that. that's what the republicans run on. he also is trying to do echoes of reagan and bought into this kind of idea that the military is an institution to be worshipped. that's bipartisan, but the republicans tend to be more over the military. what i think is extremely dangerous is trump doesn't seem to be interested in getting actual intelligence. he reads breitbart and watches fox news. that is more important to him than getting the actual raw intelligence or the presidential daily briefing. combine that disinterest in what's happening in the world with arrogance and then a side order of unprecedented deferral to the generals. that could lead us to the brink of just short of world war iii. military people are always looking for a military solution.

the reason we have civilian oversight is to present the world from being viewed solely through the lens of victory, take into account actual interest. meaning the safety of our people, not the profits of corporation. trump represents the worst of every possible quality from democrats and republicans in the postworld war ii area. >> let me get to the speech from 50 years ago. i want to read a passage from dr. king. there is such a thing as being too late, procrastination is still the thief of time. life often leaves us standing bare, naked and dejected with a lost opportunity. over the bleached bones and jumbled residues of numerous civilizations are written the pathetic warriors too late.

i ask you, on this issue of militarism and the build up of the military industrial complex, is it too late? can we pull this thing back? >> that's a profound question and i'm still reflecting on the words of dr. king there. let me answer that like this, i was critical of bernie sanders on the campaign because there was some votes he had in the past and statements he made about assassinations and drone killings that i found problematic. that's my job. what sander said is when hillary clinton was forced to speak bernie sanders names and the cameras show up at his rallies and the news is reporting on what he is saying, what we realize or what people realize is here is someone saying things

i believed for 20 years, the influence of corporations. the answer that bernie sanders is on that message, the guy who was energizing so many young people. to me it says that the fundmental nature of the system is that politician, the only way anything will fundamentally change in this country is if we get the corporations out of our political system. that is not an easy battle. i think that had barack obama opted into public financing in 2008 and feingold it would have been a shake up of the system. the bernie sanders moment, i think really showed how many people in this country understand the role corporations are playing in dismantling our

democratic process. it's not the most sexy answer in the world, but if you are thinking about it from organized politics, it's not too late. talk about climate change, we are almost at the point of no return. donald trump is basically declared a war on the environment. king talked in that speech about, he uses the phrase, beautiful trees. he does. i found that so given that we just came off trump announcing he is dismantling the clekleen power plant and the keystone pipeline is going to be there. when is the last time you heard a politician talk about nature that way? to me, that was the most human moment of the speech. he read that speech, which is atypical. the fact he mentioned the beauty of trees in a land that is being bombed, i found profound. >> to the speech, again, let me back up saying, a few weeks ago,

you took a courageous stand to not appear on a particular television show. realtime with bill maher. you made a stand not to appear on the program because this guy, whose name i cannot pronounce, he had a meltdown, had to resign from breitbart. we know how it ended. you put a statement out and didn't appear because you didn't want to be a hate fest. i was reading this passage, we can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the alter of retaliation. history is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursue the self-defeating task of hate. >> you know, tieing that together with the initial part

of the question you asked me, as a fundmental principle, i don't believe we could be de -- undocuments immigrants or publicly shaming private citizens who are transgender. i will debate anyone anywhere, but i will not debate a fascist. i will protest them. that's not where there's an exchange of ideas that the first amendment says we engage in. we want the experimentation of black people and extermination of jews. they are advocating a form of hatred that is vilified in history and being normalized by the president of the united states. i won't participate in any platform where they are asking. that's not a debate to me. that's not debating a con sempbtive republican in congress.

everyone has a right to free speech, i certainly agree to that. they don't have a right to speak on television or a right to be invited on to programs. i support realtime doing whatever they think is right, i'm just not going to participate in it. i got a lot of heat from that and will never end up on that show again. i got lots of heat from that. >> how about beale's point and others, how do you respond to those that say that's what you have to do with fascist and racist? you have to push back. you don't run from them. >> i didn't think it was a pushback. if you look at it, one of the most shocking and sad things to me, when i saw slipped from the episode is milo characterized transgender people who wanted to have safety inaccess to

bathrooms. bill doubled down in milo with making fun of transgender people, then turned and asked? >> i think it's gutter. on the other hand, they are being killed in record numbers in this country. they are being targeted in unprecedented way. for a show of that nature to legitimize and normalize the dehumanization of black people, that's reckless and i think it is part of the legit miization that drives the hate crimes. >> 50 years ago, king said in this "beyond vietnam" speech, it is either nonviolent co-existence or violent co-annihilation. that's the equation he put forth 50 years ago. what is the equation today? is he still right about that?

>> i think he is right about that. i don't think dr. king could have foreseen the damage to the environment in our world. if you look at the movement of hate that is fueled right now both in the united states and increasingly in europe, the united states giving the impression it is at war against a religion in islam. the dangerous war games played between russia and nato right now and the moral bankruptcy in the democratic and republican parties along with the corruption of the russian and chinese government, i think the world is on the brink of great catastrophe. livelihood and lives of humanity. unfortunately, dr. king's speech is as relevant and timely today as it was in 1967. it may have been one of the reasons he was killed.

often, a society will punish and kill and oppress the people that call it like it is while it's in realtime. later are they sort of realized for their brilliance and genius. >> in 30 seconds, how then, against all of that, do you sustain your hope? >> because people like you. because of people like the young people who organized againls police shootings of black people in this country. because of the undocumented immigrants who are very bravely coming out and standing in solidarity with one another because of sanctuary cities we have in this country and the will to live that i have seen among people that live on the other side and traveling to war zones. strikes me how people are, even though in some ways i'm the ambassador of the person and their existence. the humanities of people and war

is like taking away any permission i would have to give up. we owe those who live on the other side of the barrel of our gun, we owe them our struggle. we owe them our solidarity. >> i appreciate you in more ways than one. >> like wise. >> we'll continue from new york tomorrow night looking beyond vietnam. tomorrow night, reverend dr. otis moss jr. until then, thanks for watching. as always, keep the faith. more more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> i'm tavis smiley. join me as we continue the week long discussion commemorating the beyond vietnam speech with reverend dr. otis moss jr. that's next time. see you then.

and by contributions to your pbs statioion from viewers like you. thank you.

steves: prague's old town square, once just another farmers market, is now the heart of the city, but today, the commerce is clearly tourism. the fanciful gothic tyn church soars over everything as if to remind tourists lots of religious history took place right here. back in the 15th century, when some christians were beginning to struggle against

roman catholic dominance, this was prague's leading hussite church. hussites were followers of jan hus, whose statue graces the square. he was a local preacher who got in trouble with the vatican a hundred years before martin luther and the reformation. the chalice is a symbol of hus and his followers, who believed everyone, not just priests, should be able to partake in the eucharist, or holy communion. these days, huge crowds gather at the 15th-century astronomical clock back on the old town square. the dials seem to tell you everything you could possibly want to know. it tells the phases of the moon, sunset, current sign of the zodiac, each day's special saint, and, somehow, it even tells the time. and of course, 500 years ago, everything revolved around the earth. at the top of the hour, death tips his hourglass and pulls the cord. the windows open as the twelve apostles parade by,

acknowledging the gang of onlookers. the rooster crows... ...and finally, the bell rings. but my favorite part of the show is watching the crowd gawk.

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