. >> good evening, ga glor filling in 230r charlie rose who is away today. we begin with politics with phil rucker, david frum and julie hirschfeld. >> there has been a lot of discussion about whether this is an accident or actually by design that they haven't actually filled a lot of these really vital u7bd second tier positions under the cabinet level that are needed to make government go i honestly think it's a combination of both but i think it's more just a chronically late start and lack of planning. and a real sort of distaste for the kind of process oriented thinking that you have to do in order to figure out okay, who are the people we need in place. who is the eight-team for this

particular position or function and how do we get things going. and i don't think you can recover from that. >> rose: we conclude with the actress carrie coon of the leftovers and fargo. >> for any young actor you are never going to learn to act in the classroom. i think scru to be on the stage. i think the stage is a wonderful training ground for tv and film. because you learn how to repeat a performance. and i think a lot of times young actors think of tv and film as that quick one off take that you get. and it's true, you only have to do it well one time, really. but they neglect the fact that you might have to have a cath ar sis on screen and you have to do it 12 times which is very unnatural. your body has had an experience then you have to stuff it back in and do it again. and i think you learn how to do that in the theater. >> politics and carrie coon when we continue. >> rose: funding for charlie rose is provided by the

following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> good evening, i'm jeff glor, filling in for charlie rose who is away today. we begin the program with politics. on friday the trump administration announced it would discontinue public access to logs of visitors to the white house. meanwhile protestors across the nation demanded the president release his tax returns ahead of tuesday's tax deadline. on the foreign policy front, tensions with north korea further escalated over the

weekend and today in the wake of pyongyang's failed missile test on sunday. while visiting south korea vice president pence warned the north koreans not to test president trump citing the attacks. joining me david frum senior editor of the lant. and philip rucker white house bureau chief at the "washington post." julie hirschfeld david who covers the white house for "the new york times" will join us momentarily. david, let me start with you. the article is about europe. but i do want to start with asia since it is top of mind today and vice president pence's visit in particular. what is the administration e of the things that is really striking about the administration's mode of proceedings is it is usually the greater power that tries to deescalate the situation. the united stateses had a posture with north korea of recognizing north korea is in it for the money. they are not really a strategic actor. and the more you increase the apparent value of their nuisance, the more they will try

to charge to have the nuisance go away. and the united states does not have credible military options. everybody knows that. the trump administration doesn't have much of an alliance structure. remember it began the add p by blowing up the transpacific partnership, something that all of our friends in the pacific are deeply vested in. so it's hard to see much of a plan other than scwinting and looking tough and promising to do things that your opponents know you're not going to do. >> philip, where did the administration want this conversation to go right now? >> well, they want to apply pressure on china. there is that sense within the white house that they would very much like to see china apply more pressure on north korea not only militarily but more importantly economically, try to pressure the north korean regime, try to deescalate with north korea. i think trump is feeling very good about the relationship that he built with president xi over the last-- the e trip a couple f weeks ago. but really wants him, wants china to follow through on that and apply more pressure to north

korea. >> julie, if you are with us now, same question to you regarding north cor yavment i guess these are two separate questions. but where does the administration want this conversation to go and where do they think it can go? >> well, i think you heard david talk about the k458 engs of actually making any substantive progress in the way that past administrations haven't. i think president trump really wants to show that he can do these sort of deal-making relationship building things and the relationship with president xi, i think the white house sighs as one example of that. if they can get him to step forward and apply some pressure where china hasn't been willing to before, that would be a win. obviously a peaceful solution to these mounting threats, and a show of donald trump's ability to kind of maneuver in a geo political sphere that we haven't seen from him before. so i think it's important for them, foreign hns policy wise, obviously but he also wants to show he is a strong president that can pull some of these things. -- strijs. i think that is part of why we hear the white house talking and

leading so hard on this idea of chienar stesmg up. >> and there is confidence from the white house that after a candidate was so critical of a country during the campaign, that the president now believes he has a relationship with president xi that can get something done. >> i think that's right. they feel like the relationship is very strong, that they think china will want to help the united states in terms of sort of further fostering that friendship and come to the table a little bit, in terms of applying pressure to north korea. there is another player here to think about as well, and that's japan. obviously right there in the region. but shinzo ane-- abb, the prime minister of japan formed a relationship with trump, and the they are looking and would like to see china put more pressure on north korea and i think we are encouraged by what president trump was doing elsewhere in the world with the bombing in syria and last week in afghanistan, saw him as a desiesessive leader

willing to take action in a way president obama was not. so that encouraged the japanese. >> can i file a mild protest against the discussion that we're having. >> glor: this is where i was going to go with this. let me see if this answers your question. as far as the warming of relationships, i think the white house believes that the president can very quickly establish these nice friendships with foreign leaders which may not have-- is that naive of them to think? >> look, here is the protest i was going to file. i am not a white house correspondent and i have to thal respect for the people who work that very challenging beat. but what happens if you cover the white house is you go to sean spicer or michael anton or any of the administration's designated talkers and you say, so how is is the relationship with china. and they say it's fabulous it is a lot better than it was under that dope obama. two problems, these guys don't know anything. and second, they lie all the time.

it would be helpful, now that's not your beat. >> glor: don't pull any punches, david. >> if you say to the chinese or japanese, so how is the relationship, you might get a different answer. and they have, i suspect the chinese have a much more practicing mat-- pragmatic and instrumental view of their relationship with the trump administration. remember they tried to do that $400 million dollar rescue of the jared kushner's troubled interest in an office building in new york. remember how they have given donald trump a lot of licenses in dhiena-- kleina a lot of copyrights-- trademarks i should say that he has been seeking for a decade without success. notice the huge increase of purchases in goods branded to ivanka trump ??? china and the interest of i vnga trump inside china. they recognize these family dynastic, that is how much of china is governed. but the feeling that they have warm feelings towards donald trump, and they may flatter his

view of himself as a strong leader, but one of the things strong leaders don't do is bluff. and what we have seen again and again in syria, in afghanistan and now most ominously in nor korea is a policy based on bluff. >> glor: we saw that some would say with the health care debate dommestically as well. or at least pushing it to where it got. but david, we should, you can't discount the notion that the healthy intrapersonal relationship can certainly help get something done. >> i totally discouldn't it and reject it the way you and i and most of us go through life is we like people, and therefore we get along with them. the way it works between world lead ares is they decide that they need to get along, and then they develop the relationship. the relationship does not lead the analysis of interests. the relationship follows. and if you don't understand that, then your feelings are going to be manipulated which is something that does seem to happen to donald trump from tiement to time.

china and japan have very interspace foreign policy, salute them for, that so dot koreans. and they have a lot at stake, the risk of a terrible war in their immediate neighborhood. and they are a lot more concerned about getting things done than how they are perceived by in the chinese case, state controlled med yarks by japan and south korea, in media that are less vested in the president's personal narrative, than this president, this white house and to some extent our media are. >> glor: so where does this visit go and where does where does the conversation go. >> where does the pence-- i think there will be a lot of scwinting and a lot of jawed looks across the dmz, a lot of leather jacket pictures. there is an aircraft carrier in the region it will steam in. it won't do much and it will eventually steam out. and two weeks from now, i think this problem will look very similar to the way the problem looks today. because donald trump doesn't have any more levers over china

than president obama or president bush does or did. but what it has done is signaled that this deal is much more important to him than it was to president obama or president bush. and as the ghost writer of the art of the deal could have told him, that when you look like you want something very badly, you have to pay more for it. >> glor: julie, is the-- does the administration right now, not withstanding some of david's thoughts on this with all due respect, are they confident that the way this, the north korea conversation is going right now is one they want to hear? >> well, no, i don't think they are. i think there's a lot of anxiety behind the scenes about how this all plays it self out. and of course they are developing all of their options and you know, we hear a lot of, as david said, tough talk about you know, the era of strategic patients being over and we're ready to move it to the next phase here. but the fact is, if they are not able to get china to step up and even potentially if they are

able to show persuade china to do something it hasn't been willing to do in the past and apply more economic pressure to north korea, it's not clear what their end game is going to be. they keep on, we heard the national security advisor talk over the weekend about we want to resolve this peacefully. we want to do this in a way that doesn't involve the military. if you look at their statements and look at what is happening on the ground, it's not clear how they can do that it i don't think they have a clear sense of that right now. let's not forget as well that part of the play on putting pressure on china, i mean it is the fact that you know, this administration hasn't really gotten much out of china. they talk a lot about this warm relationship. they're really goo friends now. they have their chocolate cake but we haven't actually seen any of the fruits of that. and so it remains to be seen. and i think some people inside the white house acknowledge this that it it remains to be seen how much can really come of this, you know, outwardly looking better rapport. >> glor: philip, to you, before we butt unop north korea, where do you think this goes

next? >> i don't know. i think julie, hit it exactly right. there's not a clear end point here inside the white house. there is much more anxiety behind the scenes than you see publicly in their comments and their rhetoric. but i don't think they have figured out where this all goes. clearly they want china to step up and they're trying to kind of take this day by day but there doesn't seem to be a grand strategy that lays out what will happen three months from now, six months from now, a year from now. >> glor: all right, well, david, i think cites one sort of grand strategy in the atlantic this month. so david we can move on to that now and talk about europe. the article is called trump's plan to end europe. why? >> well, one of the things that we notice both candidate trump and the first weeks of the trurch presidency was their extraordinary hostility to the european union. and this manifested it self in the negative comments about nato before the election, the

encouragement to great britan to exit the european union which reverses american foreign policy going back to the ford administration and even before, and generally their hostility to the institution. some of this is just ignorance that when president trump says to angela merkel we would like to negotiate a trade trettee with germany, i think he sincerely did not know that that is a thing that they have moved to the eu level that you no longer can negotiate a trade treaty with germany. but some of it does seem to be, and many of the people around the administration, trade advisors like peter and a half aro do seem to see germany in particular which is a major exporter as an economic competitor like china. they discount the value of the other important things in our relationship. and they are hostile to it the european union, want to weaken it and break it up. you see that in the flirtation with people like niej el forage and maureen la pen the leader of

the national front that wants to break up the krnsee and maybe lead france out of the european union all together it is very ominous and it is especially ominous when you remember that the highest priority of russian foreign policy is is to selfer the tie between the united states and germany and to crack up the european union. because europe together is much stronger than russia. russia is a gdp about the size of italy. europe separate, no country is near as strong as russia. >> glor: but as you said we have certainly seen some remarkable revolutions from the president, in just the past few days on multiple issues. so should we not expect there might be one on europe then as well, david? >> well, to my em barment one of the revolutions happened on the very day that the article was released. that was the day that donald trump said i have changed my mind and nato is no longer obsolete t was dead and now it's not dead any more. so yes, i'm sure he's very mer cur yal and impulsive. he has got thin attachments to

things. but there is certain harms that once done can't be undone. and remember back in 2013, and 11 when we were talking about the united states defaulting on its obligations, when you take the possibility something like that from zero to not zero, that is an irrevocable event and when you take the idea that the dwreunt united states might not honor its nato agreement from zero to unzero, that is something you cannot unsay, and we now are, while the administration is projecting less hoss ility to the union as an institution, the animus is still pretty visible and the people around him have their animuses and when you look at the relationships they choose to have, the fact that people like niejel forage got a warmer treatment than angela merkel does, people in europe notice that. and the most dangerous thing that happens is they then begin thinking we need a plan for our security, premise on united states is no longer a reliable partner and gawrn tor.

>> glor: is it possible that those that show that same animus that would rather pete with forage than merck rell being pushed to the side in whatever way in this white house now? >> one of them is in the oval office. and he is there for the duration. >> glor: where is steve bannon right now? >> well, unlike the saturday night live portrayal, steve bannon is at work. he still has his job. he remains the chief strategist although his portfolio is much smaller and his influence has been, i would say, greatly diminished. he continues to advise the president. he continues to be a part of meetings and strategy discussions. but he doesn't have the kind of singular power that he had in those early weeks of the presidency when people would refer to him as the shadow president, if you will. the person who has more power now is jared kushner who has really been able to kind of consolidate some influence in the white house. he is overseeing a lot of issues directly including the relationship with china, very involved in foreign policy as

well as economic issues and the federal bureaucracy. and i don't think jared is going anywhere. so basically if you want to exist with some portfolio and influence within this trump circle, you have to learn to coexist with jared kushner and that's been a problem for steve bannon. >> glor: julie? >> well, i mean it's been interesting to watch these relationships develop. one of the things that we all talked about when donald trump first considered bringing jared kushner on to his team at the white house is you can't fire your son in law. and indeed what we see is he has risen in influence. and as some of these issues have really gotten much more difficult, then i think the white house started off viewing them, you know, it's become clear that steve bannon's influence is not going to be enough to get them where they want to go. and it seems that trump, if you lessen to what he says has to some degree lost a bit of confidence in bannon. that said, he's still as phil pointed out the chief strategist. he still does have power and

prox imity to the president. and i think a lot of that power comes from the way in which their thinking is aligned on a lot of these issues. so even if he is, and i do think his influence has been diminished a bit. he obviously came off of the national security council and that was a big sort of symbolic as well as substantive step back, he and donald trump share the same approach to a lot of heese issues. and it's not really clear where jared kushner is coming from on a lot of these things. he doesn't have a foreign policy worldview at least not one that has been laid out clearly for me, and in a way that you might expect someone who is advising the president at that high a level on this many high profile foreign policy issues would have. and so i think you know, as long as bannon is there, he is going to continue to have some influence and a fairly sizeable one on this president, because they think in a lot of same way in a lot of these issues. >> glor: david, i'm loathed to throw you such a loaded question here. but how can you come into office expecting that these issues are

not going to be as hard as you think they were. >> it is a combination of ignorance and ar ganlsz. the thought on steve bannon an jared kushner there is a strong narrative line that has developed in the way we report this. i understand it and am sim pathetic to it it. i was in a coffee shop a few days after the election. someone i few a little bit came up to me, recognize me from childhood, put her hand on my shoulder and said tell me everything is going to be okay. and i think a lot of us who cover politics have an impulse that we want to give an answer to that person that will make her feel better. and so we create a story where steve bannon is the source of all the irregularities and anomolies in the white house. and if only something would happen to him, and somebody nicer like jared kushner was to take over, things would be better. things would be okay. they're not going to be okay. with jared kushner you get a different set of problems than do you with steve bannon. obviously he is way less idea

logical, he's not connected to breet bartd. but he doesn't know anything and even more than that, the problems of integrity, public integrity that have stocked this white house become worse the more power that the kushner family has. it was the kushner family that associated this 400 until dollar payout from a chinese state influence bank although that deal had be to dropped presumely every day people in the nush consider neam circumstance is el are thinking about similar kinds of transactions. and 45eu6g the fire the affairs of the united states in the hands of people who really don't know anything about them, 35, they're not children, half on the planet haven't bothered to learn anything, their idea of research is to go to amazon.com and google the titles of books, reportedly, if true, and then the book you pick is one that nobody interested in the field would recommend to you to read.

and the advisor you select from that basis is somebody who nobody who is concerned about these issues would advise to you have. this is in its own wayay as troubling as anything you've got with steve bannon it may be more familiar t may be less shocking to some of the prejudices of people without cover politics but it really alarming all the same. >> glor: let me push back for a minute. i'm not sure there is a narrative that if steve bannon is out, everything is going to be okay. i think there is clearly some who want his influence marginalized and obviously it has been. with regard to jared kushner, saying he doesn't know anything, i'm not speaking on jared kushner's we-but clearly he has accumulated some level of trust an confidence an knowledge inside the white house to obtain positions that he has with the president. if we then appreciate that jared kushner's is in the spot he's in, and because the president

tieks-- takes family so seriously he's not going anywhere, in your estimation f you are prescribing something for this white house beyond what is in this article, are you telling the president then to limit his portfolio? >> i would say that if jared kushner were truly public spirited person, what he would do, if he wants to stay in the white house, obviously he has to separate himself much more fully from his own business interests than he has. then he would say to the president, you need an a-team here. what i would like to do for you is run a staff prog ses whereby instead of giving your china portfolio to me and the middle east portfolio to me, and the reinventing government portfolio to me, we bring in people who actually knew about these issues before november of last year. you have its whole world of talent available to you. so let's run a proper staff prog ses and bring people into the white house and by the way, let's also get the state department staffed while we are at it, and some of the other departments too where there are no deputies. you know, the white house as all of us know, the bureaucratic process in the white house depends on deputy meetings where

the next level down prepares the issues for the principals. you can't have deputy meetings if you don't have deputies. and halfway through, or a third of the way through the president's first year, no deputies. >> glor: that's partially by design, correct? this is in part the way this president works. >> it's partly by design. it's partly just by-- i've been tweeting a lot. people follow, about the easter egg roll. that happened on monday. and seems like a trivial subject. remember the story brown m & mst as the david lee roth contract that he would say please take away the brown m & ms. >> glor: yes. >> because he knows if the brown m & ms are present it means they haven't read the contract and that means the girders won't be done correctly and i quipment will fall on people and crush people. you had this instant idea that they could do it. that is what the easter egg roll is, the biggest visiter event t is important to lots of people, if you mess it up, it tells you that your staff process is broken and they completely messed it up, because they were too disorganized, too arrogant

and too unprepared to run an easter egg roll. and now they want us to follow them into a military conflict in northeast asia? >> glor: julie, i will start with you. is part of this just having to get, again, we're biting off a lot right here. is part of that, though, that they just have to get to that staffing level, clearly state department issues right now, state departments staffing issues. how much more does the white house want to do and how quickly do you think they're moving on that? >> well, i mean, i don't want to make too much of the egg roll although i did do a lot of reporting on it. i do think though that it is an indication of like david said, not just a lack of planning and lack of organization, they got a slow start, they didn't realize how big of an understaking this was going to be. but in almost an allergy to organization and staffing and process that is fundamentally what makes government run. and so you know, we have heard steve bannon talk about the deconstruction of the administrative state and there's

been a lot of discussion about whether this is an accident or actually by design that they haven't actually filled a lot of these really vital under, you know, second tier positions under the cabinet level that are needed to make government go. i honestly think it's a combination of both but i think it's more just a chronically late start and lack of planning. and a real sort of distaste for the kind of process oriented thinking that you have to do in order to figure out, okay, who are the people we need in place who is the a i'm for this particular position or function and how do we get things going. and i done think you can recover from that quickly. i mean this administration according to my reporting was about two months behind where it needed to be in terms of getting senior people in key roles that needed to be confirmed by the senate, when they started. and so it's going to take them months if not potentially years to recover from that. and it's difficult to sort of

make progress on the policy side and handle some of these really thorny issues both dommestically and for foreign policy ways wise if you don't have them in place. you need the process in order to make government go and this is not something we know that is a priority for donald trump or anyone really around him. >> philip, is the deep sate, administrative state narrative one that is still being pushed, accurate or not, or have they backed off on that? >> it's still being pushed to some extent although the main champion internally in the administration had been steve bannon and he as we've discussed has less power than he once did. but just to piggy back on what julie was just saying, the other problem that is hampering the stability of the staff of the government is the incredible tor

deputies would be, who their assistant secretaries would be, i think we would have many more nominees already in the senate right now moving through towards confirmation. but a lot of things are being basically choked through the internal trump process because president trump, jared kushner, other officials in the white house want to review every hire and make sure that these people are personally loyal to the president and that they're the right people they want for the jobs. and that just takes a lot of time to get through. >> there's another problem that follows from that. if your staffing process goes like, this question one do you have a strong personal loyalty to donald trump arc lot of people can say yes it to that question. question two, have you paid all your taxers and on time and in full. you can pass the security clearance. if those circles tend not to overlap very much. the problem is if people really like donald trump are the kind of people you normal lee wouldn't have working in a white house or in a government. and the people who you normally would have, are people who tend

not to approve of dn ald trump. >> glor: so in your estimation is is the administration or president winning any of these bealts right now? on any front? >> what the president is winning is there was a period i'm sure many people felt it was weird or by glarks comical, not comical that donald trump was president of the united states. just out of sheer reputation, he is president of the united states every day, we have to get used to that idea. so he is winning there. and is he being covered in a more normal kind of of way. and his, and some of the-- and he's been saved sometimes against himself from some of his own worst instincts like making mike flin the national security advisor. but dommest clear and abroad i think the situation in the country becomes more terrifying every day. you have a complete implosion of the republican domestic agenda. by the way, the bush tax cut passed both houses of congress by the end of may, president

bush's first year. donald trump tax cut we're almost at the end of april, we have no idea what it would look like. and abroad we are steering from crisis to crisis without plans, without allies and without any kind of working internal governmental processes. it's very, very dangerous. and donald trump may feel like a winner. i'm sure he is a much richer man today than on election day but the rest of us i think are all losers. >> do people close to him who have been in that environment and who can have a steadying hand, maybe it's the vice president and maybe that's why is he in north korea, does that help. >> i don't think the record of donald trump's long career in the public eye suggested other people get to study him. when people try, he turns on them. one of the really distinctive things about his life in business and the white house is his need to inflict petty humiliations on anybody who looks like they know what they're doing. >> glor: philip, that said,

the tweeting has backed off a little bit in terms of aggressiveness, no? >> a little bit. you see a lot more what you might call presidential tweets, you know, happy easter, messages like that. there have been fewer-- there have been fewer kind of truly provocative tweets than i think we saw earlier in the presidency. that's not to say he's not still doing it. i think yesterday he was tweet being the tax day prosessers, and again today he talked about the fake news med yarks and so he's still going back to his favorite hobby horses. but his tweets are not necessarily landing with the same sort of explosive, controversial change the news narrative type of impact that we saw earlier. >> glor: and julie, the tax protests and requests have not gone away, especially on the eve of the tax deadline. >> no absolutely.

now you have democrats on capitol hill seizing on this who if you want us to sign on to any tax policy plan, you have to show us your tax return. on a number of front this is not going away, particularly because there are lawsuits about donald trump's potential conflict of interest, a major piece of this is going to be discovery in which some of these groups that are suing would like to see the returns as part of the lawsuit and that may, indeed, happen. you know we've heard sort of shifting explanations from the white house about why these tax returns not forth coming, first it was the audit. now it's well, the president is always automatically audited. and that didn't stop any of the other presidents for the last four decareds from coughing up their tax returns. but i think in general, i mean, the first explanation on this one is i think the awe ten thicket-- authentic one which is is donald trump genuinely feels he wouldn't have won the election if people cared about his tax returns and what was in them so why should he cough them up now that he is president. that is actually what he tweeted

yesterday, was something along the lines of, you know, the election is over. let's move on from the tax return. i don't think people are going to. but i also don't think that the position of the white house is going to change. >> they mustant, because i say this without knowledge, just out of pure inteuation-- intuition, the reason the tax returns i believe was suppressed before is they would show how much less rich done alz trump was than he wants people to believe he wa, and the reason they will be suppressed is because they will show how much more rich he was than he was on election day. >> glor: you think that suppression can take place, whatever word you use for it, that that can take place for years without more coming to the fore? >> i don't predict here. if the democrats take one or both houses of congress in 2018, things may get more difficult for donald trump and it may be that depending on-- i mean the presumption in the courts of a secretary resee of tax returns

is quite strong. so it would be a bold judge who would allow discovery of tax returns am but that could-- i defer to those who reported it more closely that that is something that could happen. >> glor: david, from the atlantic, julie hirschfeld who covers the white house, and philip rucker whois bureau chief, from "the washington post," the article is you will cad trump's plan toned europe. we appreciate all of your time, thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> glor: carrie coon is here, she stars in the acclaimed hbo drama the leftovers, the final season will begin airing on sunday, april 16th. she plays nora birs dirs, a woman who lost her husband and two children in an unexplained phenomenon when two percent of the world's population simply disappeared. new york magazine named coon the best actress on television in 2016. and here's a look at some of her work. >> i get t i felt the same as

you. i-- i felt responsible for losing my children. i thought it was my fault. but i moved passed it. i volume of the. because that's pathetic. terrible thickets happen in this world. and the only comfort we get is that we didn't cause them. so i'm sorry but erica this had nothing to do with you. within did they depart or did they die? >> what? >> your children, you said you lost them. did they depart or did they die?

>> they departed. >> what were the last words they said to you? to the best of your recollection ? >> rose: coon will also star in this season of the emmy award-winning epic series fargo. i'm pleased to have her here at this table for the first time, welcome. >> thank you so much. >> rose: so the leftovers is essentially about dealing with grief? >> yes, it is, very much, yes. she's-- nora is the ambassador of grief in her town. she is a statistical anomaly,

the only person who lost that many people. and i find that though the show seems to deal with supernatural circumstances t feels very real to me. you know. >> rose: meaning dealing with loss and departure. >> yeah, absolutely. >> rose: it happens to everybody. >> most certainly, most certainly it does. and also, when tom prada wrote the book it was really a bit of a rum nation on 9/11. it was about collective grieving. what happens to an entire group of people when they are grieving together. and i think we see so many instances of that in our world, unfortunately now, where communities are traumatized and people have to deal with something collectively. he was very presh yent in that way. so it always fement like a very truthful examination of what it was to be in grief. >> rose: was this the first move from the from the theat tore film for you? >> it was. i had done some guest star spots and some commercial work. and at that point i think we shot the pilot of the leftovers and then i booked gone girl. so i shot the film gone girl and that came out or started filming

before i started the rest of the season of leftovers, so i had a lot of-- finster school. >> rose: a good director to learn from. >> boy, the best. he was wonderful to me, so. >> rose: i remember the question was whether affleck was going to be directing that or not. >> yes. >> rose: and it was clearly finster. >> i had to say ben spent a lot of time just geeking out behind the camera with david and having great conversations about why he was making the decisions he was making. i think ben learned a lot too. >> rose: he is one of those actors who proved he can direct. >> absolutely. he is an exceptional director. >> rose: was the transition difficult or not. >> from theater to tv and fill snm you know, it's completely different. having come up through the chicago scene, one of the benefits from that is that the market is much smaller. so i had the opportunity to do a lot of commercial auditions. so i really learned to be on camera by going to, you know, sort of terrible inane commercial auditions for years. so i felt like i was ready. it's more, it's more about your face than your whole body i

would say is the biggest difference. >> rose: it's up close. >> that's right. and in the theater you tell the whole story from beginning to end and tv and film you tell it out of order, they knock on your door at 2 a.m. and say come cry now. >> rose: in theater you get to do it again and again and again. >> that's right. >> rose: but in film you get to try again and again and multiple takes. >> that's right. and you have to get the opportunity to sort of blow it out in that moment. and not worry about having to repeat it the next day. which is really lovely but you also don't get the kind of dreaming time before you shoot something that you get in the theater. so you have to be very, the immediate see i have come to respect. it was really challenging at first and boy, i really think very differently about those tv actors who make 22 episodes a yoor and show up on the day and do that. it is a miracle anything is ever good. >> rose: are there nights where you think you have pushed it to a level that you, much, much better than the previous night or week, show because of some convergeence t is unbelievable and you wish that somebody, somewhere, caught

this. >> yes, absolutely, most certainly, yeah. it is so ephemeral, the theater, isn't it. and certainly the audience is a character in the play. and boy, on a drunk saturday night, they're not the best audience, you know, they're not the best scene partner. so yeah, do you kind of wish you could preserve it. >> rose: there is a great story which i'm sure you know about laurence olivier, backstage after some brilliant performance and some other actor want back and said larry, larry, larry, that was amazing. that was beautiful. >> right. >> rose: how did you do it? >> and he says oh i wish i knew, i wish i knew. >> yes there is something very elusive about the art, even in tv, it's interesting because it seems that the camera knows your body knows when the camera is on your coverage. and your body helps you and responds. once the camera turns around. >> rose: your body knows. >> yes, so when are you doing a scene. >> rose: right. >> you have to shoot btd actors up close so you are off camera for part of it and i always feel like my body knows when it's my

coverage, right 6789 and your body opens. >> rose: feels the camera's presence. >> it can, sort of. it opens based on you emotionally. once you turn on the other actor, you almost can't-- you can't really re-create the experience for them entirely. there is always a little something held back from the other actor which is interesting. you want to give them as much as you can so they give you an authentic response in the scene. but there is something very elusive about that thing where the body seems to know. >> rose: which do you prefer? >> oh, i think i'll always appreciate the theater. i mean my husband is a playwright, he's-- and also. >> rose: and a damn good one. >> a damn good one, i have to agree with you there. >> rose: i think he won a pulitzer or something. >> he did, you know, maybe a couple of tonys. >> rose: yes, that too. >> but he also can act. >> he can act. he is one of the best actors have i ever seine. >> rose: is that right. >> he is, i met him in a play, he's really incredible. but the other thing about the thoot certificate that you are the arbiter of taste.

when are you on stage, you are the one determining what's working. and in tv and film you are waiting for someone else to tell you when they got it. >> rose: the odder yens tells it you or who tells us. >> the audience tells, you, the other actors but in 2-rbgs v and fill, the direct wear tell you and i feel it would be tough to lose that arbiter, your own taste level. i also love telling a story from beginning to end happen. is what stories are. >> rose: when you have done what you have done, do you stop, how do you grow? du stop taking lessons? do you stop-- is it it just simply learning by doing and being involved in the process. >> i think so. i think for any yowj actor you are never going to learn to act in the classroom. i think you have to be on the stage, for example. i think the stage is a roughly training ground for tv and film because you learn how to repeat a performance. and i think a lot of times young actors think of tv and film as that quick one off take that you get. and it's true, you on have to do

it well one time, really. but they, they neglect the fact that you might have to have a cath ar sis on screen and you have to do it 12 times which is very unnatural. your body has had an experience, then you have to stuff it back in and do it again. i think you learn how to do that in the theater. >> rose: sometimes actors can read a book, and see a part and say to themselves oh my god, i would love to be that person. >> yes. >> rose: that roll just speaks to me. did that happen here? >> most definitely. i had read tom par adda's book years before it was made into a television series. and i remember having an affinity for nora dirs even inn the book even though she was kind of a small part in the book. when it came time to audition, when i want in to tape, i thought nobody else can do this but me. and luckily this time they agreed. they don't always. but this time it worked out. >> rose: and how does she deal with grief in the way that we suggested was a central part of this? >> she's-- well, what i love about daim linda ross' writing

is that anyone who experienced grief in real life knows it's not linear. you don't go through the steps neatly one after the other, you regress and go two steps forward and one step back. and i think what's lovely about the show is that it feels truthful in that exploration in that we see characters black slide-- back slide into emotional territory they seemed to have already covered. and as an actor it's nice because whenever you are repeating an emotion you want to have a reason for doing that. you don't want to just reach into your bag of tricks and be crying again, you want circumstances that support why the character is back in this place it is usually unfinished business. i think damon does that bufffully. >> rose: who is her boyfriend in this case. >> kevin gar vee, the sheriff of the town. in the book he's the mayor. an i think they meet each other in really honest places. that's how they start this relationship. they're just very honest from each other from the jump. our characters get in to trouble whenever they migrate away interest that. whenever they start pretending,

their reionship goes off the rails a little bit, but justin is with-- . >> rose: here su with him. >> oh, great, hey, what are you doing home. >> i just came home to change a shirt. you sick of me already. >> i had to go to st. louis for work, just a couple of nights. i'm going to miss you. >> i will miss you too. do you mind if i borrow, this i need something to read on the plane. >> really? >> you don't me to take it? >> no, no, matt said there is only one copy. >> maybe matt should have gone to kinkos. >> oh. >> are you busting my balls. >> can holy balls be busted. >> i would love for to you take it. >> we're on the same page about this, right, this ridiculous.

>> yeah, ridiculous. >> and you did kiss the lips of kevin, and low t was good. >> rose: looks like a good relationship to me. >> yeah, we really had great chemistry from the beginning. me and justin. and i love the character. again, they kind of start their relationship in honesty and they call each other on their tricks and i think that's healthy. >> rose: how is second season different from first season? >> well, second season had, we started in a very hopeful place, creating a family. we have sort of moved past the could be tents of the book which is mostly centered on the grief. and now season three where we find ourselves, there is quite a bit of momentum. i think the show is very character driven in the first two seasons. and season three is very plot driven. we know these people and they're moving forward very quickly and we only had eight episodes to firn the series, so it must move quickly, i think. >> then there is fargo. >> then there is fargo. >> rose: and who is gloria. >> gloria is a very practical, very mid western woman, these

are my people, i'm from the midwest too, so we don't suffer fools and we're quite again practical and she is you know she's got a lot of-- she sees the truth. >> rose: a word i haven't heard in a w450eu8, good for you. >> good, thanks. you know, i like to read books. she is, yeah, she's very clear thinking. and no one listens to her. because partly because she's a woman, i think, she's in a very male dominated profession. also we meet her at a low point in her life where her, she may be losing her job, her little precinct is being absorbed by the kawnt county. she is getting a divorce, her husband left her for a man. >> rose: her husband left her for a man. >> yes, he has. quite a shock for gloria. and you know, she's raising a 12 year old boil basically on her own. then there is a murder and is responsible for that too. so she is kind of the least minnesota nice cop we have in fargo because she just doesn't have the patience right now. >> rose: other than midwest what else disuls it share with leftovers? >> oh, i think apparently i'm

very enigmatic, i'm told. >> rose: gloria is enigmatic. >> i guess she keeps her cards close, she doesn't ask for help very easily. and i think you know, i also think she has a rye sense of humor which i think nora also shares. >> rose: she was demoted from being police chief. >> yes, she was. you know, they have a little police station that is the library and the police station and one other cop working with her. the county kind of rolls in and say this is inappropriate. we need to get you guys into ship shape. and so we have this great east coast sheriff played by shay wigham who kind of busts in and takes over. very discontent -- concerting. >> rose: how large is the town. >> tiny town, very tiny town. we actually shot it in a very little town up in canada where we are working. >> rose: the town is what, eden minnesota. >> eden prairie and eden valley both towns feature prominently in the story. there is some confusion. >> rose: talk about gone girl.

that show taught you what? >> oh, gosh. you know, i remember when we first, hi my first scene, we had done some exteriors getting in and out of cars and i finally had some scene work. >> rose: that is what american film is all about. in and out of doors and cars but he said, he said i need to you look up in this particular way because i'm not getting enough screen direction and i didn't know what screen direction. >> rose: i don't either what is it. >> it's about the angle of-- i still don't really know. it's about the angle of where you are looking in the other person's perspective and to camera and i didn't know what he was asking for. so we have a predescriptive way to ping the magazine and look up and seuss my chin. and i was utterly confused. >> rose: but he can tell that you in one second and you could physical that direction? >> ta was interesting because hi noni think could have done it but he said you can't do it i said you know, i don't understand the vocabulary, and then can i do it from that moment on, he became a great teacher. and we say come, look at the monster,ee what see where i am doing, this is where i need to you glide out.

>> it was astonishing and such a perfectionist. as long as are you not a crazy person, will you get along great because he just wants to make the best thing he can and so do i. >> rose: if you are a perfectionist are you ever satszified. >> never, you will never be satisfied. you only see your mistakes. >> rose: do you watch them. >> i do. i think it's important to watch. i think you learn a lot about being on camera, for example, from watching yourself. you have to get passed the vanity, and then you can really watch the acting and learn some things about your habits. >> rose: so what do you learn? i mean when you see yourself. >> you know, one thing i learned, for example, my first season playing nora or watching gone girl s how much work i was doing to make sound. so how hard my mouth was working to make words. and so the next time i went back on stage, i had a woman, this wonderful woman gigi come in and work with me on how to have more ease in my speaking. camera i think that is an example. >> rose: here is gloria having din we are her two sons and her daughter, or stepfather.

>> something special for the clean plate club. >> i told you i don't like strawberries. >> more for me then. >> so the thinking is, absorb the local precinct into the larger county for us. >> language, no, no, i would still be the highest ranking local officer, just not. >> chief. >> what did you get there? >> just a stupid remembering the time we went camping. >> don't forget you're at your dads this weekend. >> he and dale are going to take you to the symphony. >> is dale my other dad now? >> well, no, i mean he and your dad haven't been together that long. but if they got married. >> it's not legal. >> if they did well, you know how my steap father married my mom after grandpa passed, i

guess dale would become your stepfather. i think. i actually done know how it works. >> i know how it works in the bible. >> another beer, pop. >> you're now you're speaking english. >> we don't get to reveal much to you, do we. >> rose: no, no, no. chicago training, step enwolf is as good as it can get for a young actor. >> i think so. i think chicago is as goods as it can get. have you seen much there. second city bns we have great comedy scenes certainly, but what i think is most dominant in chicago is the step enwolf was an ensemble and all these young companies are emulating that model and what it is about is telling a story and listening. it is not about an aria, about one person standing out from the group. and i think chicago actors carry that mentality with them when they go forward. so we are good listeners and we try to be part of the ensemble. i think that helps any story. >> rose: the whole television is full of chicago people too. >> it is. >> rose: stephen colbert and so many people who came through

chicago. >> most definitely amount of lot of people out of that step enwolf ensemble and allison tolman from season one fargo was a chicago based comedian. and i just think there is a work ethic about the mid wessments i think we learn that hard work actually pays off in a city like chicago it really does. the more time you put in. >> rose: you continue with broad shoulders. >> the windy city too our politics, not our weather. i loved it there. tracy just opened a play there this past weekend at the step enwolf so we keep returning. we live there still, we'll always be a part of that theater community it is much more fore gifing for women to be in the theater anyway. >> rose: sernlgia garcia was here last night, if are you not rose: as big as the oscars. and i would ask him, i might ask him as do i with athletes, you know, what is it you need to add to your game, i said that to tiger woods, in fact. >> interesting. >> rose: how do you say that to an actress? what do you need to add to your game? >> what do you need to add to

your game. >> rose: i mean what is it that. >> i'm a form erat let so i respond to, that metaphor that you are using. because i always think of acting very much like it's the same kind of field vision, same kind of to kurks it's the same kind of state of mind, i think. it's very zeroed in, right? so i don't know what you-- . >> rose: focus, focus, focus. >> it is a kind of focus, yes. >> i think like any profession, rengths and weaknesses andyour learning from that. and for me, for example, i would like to, i would like to have a chance to sort of lean into some of that comedy. >> rose: i knew you would say that. >> sure because hi so many people say that. >> hollywood doesn't have a lot of imagination, you know. >> rose: so many very good actors who are primarily in drama. >> they say i'm funny. >> rose: yes. >> can't you tell, i'm funny. >> rose: i can. thank you for coming, with its it's my pleasure. >> rose: pleasure to see you again.

>> i really appreciate it. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes vits us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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anno♪ncer: a kqed television production. ♪ sbrocco: another umami bomb. umami bomb!