good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. access to healthy, fresh food remains a challenge for many people in communities across the nation. while fast food and junk food are readily available. a conversation with food activists and entrepreneurs who are helping communities exercise their right to grow, sell, and eat healthy food. we're glad you've joined us. our conversation about food, roy choi, ron finley and sam polk in just a moment.

>> and by contributions to your pbs stations from viewers like you. thank you. joining me for a conversation tonight about food justice, sam polk, ceo of every table which sells grab and go affordable fresh meals in california. ron finley, urban gardener and founder of the ron finley project, we call him the gangster gardener. roy choi, chef and restaurateur, good to have you guys here. >> thank you, thank you. >> i want to have a conversation. it seems to me, which i think is

a good thing, that -- across the country there is a growing conversation about what some call food justice. food justice. you don't like that phrase? >> because there is no such thing as food justice. >> okay. >> let's call it what it is. food injustice. >> okay. >> i go to these colleges and talk to people like, who works in food justice? there's no such -- you don't, you work in food injustice. until we flip that to where it's just, then you work in that. let's call it what it is. >> i'm glad you jumped in. where i was going with that, some people don't even call it food justice. they call it food apartheid. >> that's right. >> it's not a natural ecosystem, it's a manmade, segregated problem where people in certain communities have more, other communities have less. the question i want to start with is what's happening in the country that's causing this conversation about food justice or injustice to be so dynamic and to be so, pardon the phrase, organic at the moment? >> i think one thing that is

becoming clear in today's world is inequality is a huge issue that continues to widen. find is this fundamental thing that most people agree is a human right. people should be available to have healthy food. but there are nakeds as you say where that's not available. it's one of those issues where people when confronted with this fact that moms can't afford to put healthy food on the table for their kids, they know that's not right. >> roy, let me embarrass you for a second. l.a. gives out the restaurateur of the award, you the first one to win the restaurateur of the year award. given the kind of food, i'll let you brag, your restaurant serves, it wasn't a four, five star on the west side that won this award, it was a spot in the neighborhood. tell me why you think that is. >> well, i think it is because of everything that local stands for. especially from the man who gave the award, jonathan gold. and his understanding of the context of who we are.

the award goes to watts. to me, what that award means, it's not an ego-driven award, it means that now -- it's a moment in time in history, where everything, the whole dynamic and the whole infrastructure and the whole criteria what a restaurant is, has to change. i don't think it's the answer to everything. but it's the start. so now, no matter what happens in life, the restaurant of the year in watts, california. that changes a whole dynamic of everything. when you look at news and media and narratives, the only stories that have really been written about watts never really came from the inside out. they were never really positive. you know, they dealt with a lot of murders and gangs and crime. and that's not, as you know, that's not what the community is. that's not everything that defines what our people are about, what everyone is about. so this is now a momenthuman ofo be talked about on larger scale. >> what's happening in indigenous communities that are giving rise not just to these

kinds of conversations but these kinds of eating establishments? >> well, i mean -- it definitely opens people's eyes. to say that -- it definitely -- i don't think it shocked people in a bad way, but it definitely opens everyone's eyes to try to understand why a restaurant not on the west side, as you mentioned, is considered restaurant of the year. again that criteria of what a restaurant -- we're conditioned to believe a restaurant has to be certain things for it to win an award. but now that conversation has to change. it's not just about the chef or the food or how intricate or cerebral the dish or the meal is. but it's about the context and the community, what it means, and also what it means as far as discussion of what's missing. you know, and so all of those things mean something now. and it could be anything. and so i think that's really important. >> so ron, you and i have known each other for years. i have nod had a chance to listen to your lectures at your garden. but i have -- let me tell you

what i've heard. i have some friends who come to hear you speak on weekends. we all know that in l.a., for that matter in oakland, across the country, we see gentrification taking place everywhere. so i know that where your gardens are located, i'll let you talk about it in just a second, a whole bunch of good white folk are moving back into the neighborhoods. i'm told that when you give these lick tours, you're brutally honest about the conditions, about the circumstance, of what needs to be done. when you are giving these kinds of lectures and creating these kinds of conversations to folks who don't look like you and me, who come into the neighborhoods, who think they're doing the right thing, how are they responding to these issues that you're raising about how these conditions were allowed to be created in the first place? >> a lot of them hear it, but we also must realize that the gentrifiers are being gentrified. so they're not moving over there because a lot of times they want

to, they're moving over there because they can't afford santa monica, venice. they'll pay, hey, we'll pay $950,000 for 900 square teet in venice. but now they want $2 million? we can't do that. so now they come to our neighborhoods. now, like we just had somebody come to the neighborhood, you know this is an up and coming neighborhood. no, there's people already here, christopher columbus, you know what i'm saying? we don't need you to come here to tell us that our neighborhood is up and coming. what kills me is all of a sudden when the complexion of the neighborhood changes, you have infrastructure that comes. you have restaurants. you have cafes. you have all these facilities. so all that's telling me is that the people that were there before, you didn't really care about them. the only thing that changed was the complexion. the house is still the same. the street. except this they put the fence up, they put them horizontal instead of vertical. that's the only thing that

changes. >> how politicized is this conversation or lack thereof about food injustice? >> i mean -- i guess the way i would answer it is that a kid born in watts, for example, gives on average 12 years less than a kid born on the west side of l.a. and there's a lot of reasons for that. kids are left out of the functioning education system, functioning economy, oftentimes the functioning health care system. but for sure a functioning food system. and it's a weird time for all of this to happen, because donald trump is i think stepping out into the world and representing this systemic inequality that has been a core part of our country since the beginning. and i think that people like roy and ron and a little bit myself are trying to stand against that and say like, this is a world where a kid born in watts lives 12 years less, and that's not right, and that needs to change

right away. >> i was stunned, roy, when i started to prepare for this conversation. to look at the numbers. how much food in this country is thrown away every day. >> yeah. >> thrown away. wasted. how does that happen in a country where people still -- where there are still too many folks who go to bed hungry at night? >> that's the fundamental issue i think why we're in this position, because we don't have an eating culture in this country. >> we don't have an eating culture? >> we don't have an eating culture, we don't value eating. it's absurd to think of the fact that there's so many people going hungry. so many people being -- malnutrition not only in our educational system starting from kindergarten through their whole life. then there's this pot of gold right next to them. they just can't access it. so us as chefs, we're not very political. i'm not political at all. i just think of it as a healer

point of view. of, i live my life around abundance. i have the fortune and ability as a chef where i'm sitting with food around me all the time. no matter how rich or poor i am. so from our perspective we try to share that with everyone. i think that's important. all of us kind of need to put down our guns, in a sense, you know. put down our fists and just look at this food and just realize how absurd this is, that we have this food here, you have whole communities, thousands, hundreds of thousands of kids growing up with no food. and this food being thrown away. >> something about that too, i think that's a good point, and i think that sometimes the conversation goes towards, there's all this excess food, so we need to figure out how to get the leftovers into impoverished communities. i think that's the thing about what roy and every table is doing, this is the food that is good enough for everybody. it's not anybody's leftovers. it's saying, how come there are no -- how come it's about the need for more charity? how can we solve this so there's no more need for charity?

>> let's start here. some of that food should be thrown away because it's not food. let's start there. let's start -- your food should heal you. but we have a society now where your food is killing you. slowly. you're going to need to be amputated, you're going to have diabetes, you know. so you're going to feed all of these systems before you pass away. and that needs to be addressed. some of the food ain't food. >> but the food you're talking about that kills us is the food that more often than not is in these indigenous communities. >> where ron's getting to is the reason why the food you're talking about is not being used and thrown away is because the food this he's talking about, that food will lose their share of the market. and so it's really -- it gets deep. we're going to have to challenge the economy and what people have in their pockets and what control they have in order for that food not to be thrown away. >> why does it always come back to money? >> because it is. what is the true cost of food? that's the question that needs to be asked. that guy that's picking -- that woman that's picking those

tomatoes, what are they getting paid, what are they getting poisoned with, what is the true cost of food? >> that's right. and the cheeseburger you buy for $4 costs little. but the diabetes bill that you have to pay ten years later is quite a bit. to your point, though, it seems to me -- put it this way, even when the good white folk don't do the right things for the right reasons, there's money involved. people at least tend to understand that -- >> but that's our cousins -- >> i got that doorry am my point is this, if for no other reason, when the health care bills continue to skyrocket, it seems that alone would be a motivate tore take this issue of food injustice more seriously. >> what you're missing is -- >> if money september the motivator, what is? >> what you're missing is, we're not controlling none of that. you ask a kid where a tomato comes from. you know what he's going to tell you? the store. people don't know watermelons don't grow on trees. they haven't been exposed to it,

and you can't blame them, there is no food education. a doctor can't tell you what this herb is going to do, he went to usc, now he's a certain surgeon, but he can't tell you what's going to stop this, they're not teaching that. when you stack it all up, it starts from education on. >> you're talking education. my question is about economy. if money is being wasted and spent on these exorbitant health care costs because we don't take this seriously on the front end, isn't that a motivator? >> without the knowledge, without the knowledge who -- without the knowledge, it's not going to happen. >> some people call that stupid but i digress. maybe i'm wrong. >> here's one truth is that prisons cost a lot. right? and people are kept in prisons. there's a lot of reasons for it. but it's not a money saver. >> no. >> right? i think in some ways food has become that. they call it food apartheid for a reason. i think it's a good argument that says food and especially fast food and really cheap, inexpensive fast food is a great

form of social control, social oppression, it keeps people poor, it keeps people sick, it keeps them out of a vibrant life. >> if i take what sam said, i never argue with sam because i know him well. if i take what sam said to its nth degree that sounds like not just miseducation or misunderstanding. that sounds like a malign neglect. a malign neglect for people in these communities. >> yep. and there is a lot of doom and gloom with everything going on. a lot of it is deliberate. a lot of it is planned and structured. but i think the way we can change it is a lot of what we're doing right now, talking about it, a lot of it from our perspective, local, is to make it a part of pop culture. if you're talking about economies, you're talking about why things are being thrown away, why people aren't making the right choices. maybe a lot of that you have to drive the incentive for that to happen. so for what we try to do is instead of arguing the negatives

of everything right now, because that stuff right there, these guys can go on for days about everything we're talking about. but we try to do is almost like an artist. just make it something where everyone has to pay attention. and then by buying attention, everything else has to follow. >> even if i can't change the marketers or the money terests, even if i can't do that, perhaps i can change the people who live in these communities. so when i got to know you, before you started every table, which i've been proud to support, you were doing something called grocery ships. tell me about that, how you're trying to change the people in these communities who make food choices. >> grocery ships is a nonprofit that works at the intersection of food and poverty and basically helps usually moms who are living in what are calls food deserts get themselves and their families healthy. basically an educational support group to help people be equipped both with the right nutrition education, but also with the emotional and social support to make sort of the right eating choices.

i do want to go back to what you were saying. because i agree with roy that it's about positivity and it's about branding. and it's also about economics. and what every table is doing is saying, look, there's no -- no matter how many times we try to convince folks who are living in a neighborhood that has $13,000 a year per capita income to make the right -- make the healthier choice, if that healthier kois costs 8 bucks, it's not realistic. that's why we've structured our system as a chain of different restaurants where for our stores in downtown and santa monica, we have these incredible, healthy, delicious meals that the average fast casual meal costs 13 bucks. we're selling these meal forth 7 bucks. but we also open stores in south l.a., baldwin hills, soon compton, soon watts. in those stores the same food is for sale for 4 bucks.

for me, it's about giving folks an option that says, the fast food guys, they did a great job. making food really tasty, really addictive, really cheap. and until you can make food less expensive, in the communities we're most trying to help, it's really not a functional thing. >> if given those options, ron, will peep accept it? >> yes. but the first thing is, what we do, we have to change culture. okay? we have to have literally our culture. because we don't have any. you know, our culture has been designed for us. so that's why i take people to the soil. that's where it all begins. guess what that's where it all ends. life comes out of soil. we need to show these kids and people, period, the alchemy, the magic that comes out of soil. that trees give fraud for uit f. it's not for the trees. that's where knowledge and education comes in, money grows on trees.

ask stewart resnick does money grow on trees? the biggest land owner in california. we have to show kids everything mother nature produces is a resource. these leaves are not trash. the leaves in my neighborhood are premium south central compost and i want $1 a pound for it. we have to make it economic. that's how we make it sexy. so yeah, we have to change culture. and then with joe cousins we have that legacy, what was it? slavery. yeah. so they're not trying to touch soil, dude. i ain't no slave, i ain't touching it. actually, you are a slave if you don't touch soil because this is where life comes out of. so that makes my job so much harder, because of this legacy that we have. and i have to tell them, imagine if you own that land. >> the irony here, i'm glad you went here, the irony which i want together to, that's where we started. and we've gone full circle now. and people do not want to put their hands in the soil.

again, this conversation is becoming more dynamic and organic. what people are starting to work their way back. but the irony of it is we got away from that. >> exactly. >> do you see -- let me put it this way, are you encouraged by those you see making the trek back? >> i'm extremely encouraged. because what i have done with a little strip of land, you know in south central, because i got the lot, you can plant on the parkways. the strip of grass. and i mean, i got everything from almond trees to bananas growing on the street, literally. people see this. and it changes their whole mind on about food and where food comes from and what's possible with land. i get e-mails from all over the world, people hearing me and saying, you know what? we just did that and this is because of torino, italy. a guy runs up from rio and says,

can i show you this? giant apartment building with land in front of it and he said, we turned this into a farm because of you. now we have the permission to do the one next door. >> i know it's sustainable but can you really scale that up? >> if everybody's -- if enough people are growing you don't have to scale it up. imagine if you had several blocks where people planted their parkways. you cannot eat all the food that you can grow. it's impossible. you've seen food on trees. so now not only do you have revenue, you have stuff to share with your neighbors. because she's got onions and tomatoes and you've got carrots and chard. >> can i say one thing? i think one of the things ron is doing that is really important is redefining the idea of food. so it's no more mcdonald's and fast food. it is stuff that grows out of the soil. at the same time, in a lot of these communities that we're working in, money's in short supply. so is time. you've got a lot of moms working two jobs, taking the bus to work. so that's what every table's trying to do is take this

inspiration from folks like ron finley about whole foods, vegetables and grains that come out of the earth, but then create a system where we can package those foods and create these incredible meals that people can then buy without spending all that time to cook, which i'm a big fan of cooking. i think more people should do it. and when you're a single mom of four kids, you don't have time to do that. >> how much time, attention, and detail do you as a chef have to give to your ingredients? not just the ingredients but where you get the ingreetingred from? so many people want to know the back story. they don't just want to support you and the enterprise, they want to know that what they're supporting is legit. >> yeah, i mean -- i think by being legit is, if you know in your heart that you're doing something right, if you know that you're making the right choices, you don't have to prove to anyone else. and it's also important to not make claims that you can't live up to. so what local represents is a pathway and a journey.

starting at one point and going to another place. we don't claim to be all organic. we don't claim to be all sustainable or whatever the case may be. we claim to buy natural ingredients as best we can and use local farmers as best we can. and in the mix, sometimes there's going to be some things that are commercial produce. just because that's all we can afford right now. it comes down to being honest with your decisions, honest with your intent. the way we look at it is that everything doesn't have to be perfect from the beginning. our mission doesn't have to be perfect from the beginning. as long as your intent and your path towards it is true and honest, then you're going to get there. you don't know how you're going to get there, but you're going to get there. >> you think food justice is a fad? or is it the wave of the future? >> i hope it's not a fad, you know? i think it's just the beginning of this lumber, of this almost -- this sleep and slumber

that we have been in as a people. you know? if you look at other countries around the world, you know, even the country that my papers are from and my blood is from, things aren't perfect. we can point out a million things wrong with any other country from thailand to korea to brazil. but food is not one of them. you know what i'm saying? the culture of eating, not only from a child, but also of family, but also even a teenager. when you care about things the least, the hardest thing to do is find the thing on the corner and eat a bowl of noodles. we've got to develop that culture into our youth. so i hope it's just the beginning. i hope in ten years from now, 20 years from now, i hope artists and rappers are talking about food. talking about -- i hope they're not talking about lean and strip clubs. i hope they're talking about food. >> what makes you hopeful? >> the fact that we're here. the fact that we're wor

contractowarriors and we woke up this morning and i get another shot at this. being able to go around the world and see the change happening. it ain't even hopeful, to me. i don't believe in hope. i believe in opportunity. that's what people in our communities need. they don't need hope, they need opportunities to show how brilliant they truly are. from the school system up. and to me, that's where it starts at. >> why do you think every table will survive and thrive? >> a very smart man named tavis smiley once said to me that -- >> it's questionable already. but go ahead. >> that justice is wanting for everyone else's kids what you want for your own. and every table is about that. it's about a movement that makes the same food available to everybody, but does it at different prices so that everybody can participate. not to toot our horn but i think we have a model that has the potential to bring healthy food into every community, period, in the country. but especially every underserved

community. and that's when keeps me going. >> sam, ron, roy, i love what you're doing, good to have you on the program. >> thank you, appreciate it. >> that's the program for tonight. thank you for watching. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> hi, i'm tavis smiley. next time a deep dive into what's happening around the country. that's next time. we'll see you then.

>> by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. be more. pbs.

good evening from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley. first a conversation with paula sound stone, known for being a fixture on the comedy scene for nearly four decades now, accomplished author, her latest is "the totally unscientific study of the search for human happiness." then we'll talk to the man at the center of the starz drama "american gods" actor ricky whittle, paula poundstone and ricky whittle coming up in just a moment.