good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. stabbed at the heart of america's so-called negro problem and baldwin's rich raw relevant flaws from steve shapiro. tonight the photographer known for iconic images joins us to discuss his contribution to the very special reprint and actress laura durhan is here. we glad you've joined us with conversations with steve shapiro and laura duran in just a momen

moment. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> pictures with worth a thousand words and steve shapiro could fill a thousand books. the latest edition of james baldwin's "the fire next time" so shapiro, an honor to have you. >> it's my pleasure. >> let me unpack this thing. it came in this beautiful pack

ca packaging and all of this. they sent this to me a few weeks ago and i had a chance to go through it. it is beautiful. >> they did a great job and it has interesting elements as the text of james baldwin's fire next time and an introduction by john lewis. it has a piece written by baldwin's sister and about 120 of my civil rights photographs from 1963 to 1968. >> tell me specifically, we could talk about your civil rights work for hours and hours and hours. specifically, tell me about hanging out with james baldwin. >> james baldwin was amazing. in 1962, i read the new yorker piece he wrote, which became part of fire next time. i was just starting with life and i asked them if i could do a photo essay with them and through the month of january '63 we traveled from harlem, durham,

north carolina, mississippi, new orleans and it was an adventure and for me being a new yorker who had no experience with the south, it was amazing. i was just amazed by his intellect and love. there is a picture in there in which he's holding an abandoned child and just the feelings he had for people were so strong and also, just his ability to talk with leaders and the importance he had behind the scenes was really important in terms of the whole movement. >> yeah. i get it because it's my show, i get a chance to show you pictures i like, so we'll pull out -- i identified about six of these i want you to tell me about. >> terrific. >> before i do that, tell me about the experience this young white guy who had not been in the south, what -- what did you see, what did you experience, how did you process it? >> life got me a stringer.

i came into jackson, mississippi and had long hair and a leather jacket. he took one look at me. pulled me into the barbershop and told them to give me a marine haircut, white corduroy paints and a case to put my camera in and felt he could walk around with me. [ laughter ] >> but he had -- had to get you ready for that experience. >> absolutely. >> that is hilarious. here is the first photo i picked out. tell me about this photo. >> i think it's an important picture. this is 1965. this is a middle-aged woman in alabama and it's so important today the same way as it was then. it just rings the same way and it still exists. >> since you were there and obviously took the photo, what do you make of to your point the

pressing, the nature, the real world that we still live in that makes that poster so relevant today. >> i think there are two things, one at the time that picture was taken, every sheriff, every policeman was against the movement and against, you know, black voting or anything like that. today i think it's a little different. i think there are some police who have a sense of caring and i think there are a lot of people who go into that profession with a sense of inner violence and they use that violence and unfortunately. >> yeah. here is picture number two. tell me about this. >> i felt jimmy was a lonely person at the time, particularly 1963. i really like that picture do you love me and i thought it had relevance to him. it just rang a bell for me in terms of how he was. he was amazing person but very lonely. >> is he holding that record or

the other guy? >> he's holding the record. >> baldwin is holding the record. >> yes. >> and you happen to catch it with those words on the record. >> total candidly. >> do you love me. wow. tell me about this photo right here. >> that's baldwin and his family with his sisters and their children. this was taken at his sister's hou house. he was very fond of his family and had a wonderful love of his people in every way. >> fascinating, interesting childhood so when i saw that picture and saw so much love in that photo of his family, it was beautiful to see. >> yeah, he and john lewis were early preachers at an early age. >> they were, indeed. they both had their own witness. tell me about this picture. >> we were in durham, north carolina and spent time walking

around town and it just strikes a bell in terms of, you know, these kids running around, a circle around the outhouse there. >> yeah. >> joe joe's kitchen is an extremely popular photograph. everyone somehow relates to joe joe's kitchen. i think it's a strong picture and it really in someways resonates in terms of the time. >> why do you think everybody relates so much to this photo. >> you tell me. [ laughter ] >> i could tell you one thing i don't relate to i wish i did. for 25 cents, french fries 15 cents. >> oh, lord. >> and hair. >> and hair. >> hair style. >> yeah. >> there you go. >> only black folk. get your chicken and your hair did in the same joint. [ laughter ] >> i love it. i guess we've discussed why everybody relates to it then. tell me about this photo right here. >> this was a photo we were in new orleans and we passed this

soda fountain store and suddenly, we saw this -- >> colored entrance only. >> colored entrance only and we wanted to take a picture of it and we noticed the proprietor was looking out the window to us. there are other elements. you could do a portrait of baldwin with the sign but adding three elements makes a much better picture. >> what did you learn -- i'm going back to the beginning of this conversation when you're young aid changed your hair and changed your outfit. what did you feel about the way that you were perceived or in particular because you had a camera around your neck. how did you feel about the way you were perceived then? >> i'm basically a fly on the wall and basically i'm very quiet and i take in what i see and the more i have the freedom

to move around, i can look for the sense of a person or the sen of an event and try to turn that into a picture which says something about that person or that event. so basically, i also went on the segregation mark in st. augustine and i asked, i don't have an id life sent me there. just say you're a member of the hunting party and j.b. stoner was there who was at a very bad reputation in terms of segregation to put it mildly, but it just is taking in and trying to document what our world is about and to see it just the way it is. >> yeah. what do you recall -- let me move from your area of expertise taking photographs to something more personal, if i may. what do you recall about your conversations with james baldwin? just the two of you guys talking? >> i think we just -- we -- you know, we spent time with medgar

evers and he took a towel and put it over his license plate which was a joke. i think it's basically really listening to just the sense of this person who was unique in terms of both his intelligence and in terms of feeling for other people so it's a strong feeling and such a strong warmth for other people really, you know, that's what told me our experience. >> i don't normally say this. i'm saying it because you'll appreciate it. it turns out i have a staff photographer that takes pictures of my guests and before you leave the stage today, they will give you a couple copies of photos he took while we were sitting here talking today. >> okay. >> his name is van evers. >> wow. >> he's the youngest child of medgar evers. he's taking pictures of you

right now. you were hanging out with his dad and now he's taking photographs of you. >> really the situation in the south. i was a new york boy and this was a whole new experience for me and through baldwin, i started working with jeromee smith who had been one of the original freedom writers who jimmy introduced me to and to other people and it really energized me to really want to show what was happening here from 1963 through 1968. >> what did you personally take away from that experience? covering so deeply and so int t intimately the civil rights aeroera. >> i took away moral values and the importance of moral values and a reaction to people who did not have moral values and they should. it was a life experience in

terms of humanity really that i got from him. >> how would you, i don't want to say compare, that's the wrong word. how would you sit uate the civil rights movement among the other events? >> it's the most important in many ways. i traveled with bobby kennedy. i did his campaign posters. i worked with a lot of people. i think this is -- this is like one of the most important things in terms of america and i see it that way today. i saw it that way then. but again, when you start with something, i didn't know that martin luther king first photographed him was going to be the martin luther king we know about. you start off and you take a lot of pictures and meet a lot of people and don't really know the outcome and the meetings with those people and so you learn a

lot and it's been a life experience in learning. >> you have been an eyewitness to history. >> i've been lucky, very lucky. >> the book is called the fire next time of steve sharpeiro. it's a book in words and pictures about the life and times of one james baldwin. mr. sharpeiro, an honor. >> an honor to be with you. >> thank you. up next actress laura durham. stay with us. welcome oscar nominee laura dern. there is a love for "big little lies" which is currently streaming on hbo on demand. she's teamed up with david lynch for a big but secretive part in the twin peaks revival and later this year portrays a prominent officer in the resistance in

star wars the last jedi. good to see you. >> that's what my kids feel like. [ laughter ] >> have they seen you much lately? >> luckily, now, i've got some time with them but it's been a crazy year. >> yeah. what -- this may be an impossible question but what makes for that in a career where everything just seems to just -- in one year? >> i don't know. i just great good fortune. i mean, particularly because my parents both being actors raised me on this idea that you should constantly keep yourself questioning character and, you know, having compassion for complicated kinds of characters, play all different keinds of people. to play so many different characters is also delicious and something i think actors go for. so i got really lucky. >> the big project, you having fun on this? >> so much fun. oh my god. all of them are my dearest

friends, people i've loved or am very close to, directors that i care more than anything about and in the last couple years i've been working with just my favorite people. so that's really exciting. >> yeah. and as i mentioned a moment ago, you can't tell me anything, can you, about twin peaks. >> i actually -- when a photo was released of my character in "star wars" thank god i can talk about something a little bit, not completely but twin peaks is still a mystery but it's starting to unfold and what i can say is being that david lynch is the time of my life as i've been here with you talking about david before, he's such a genius and, you know, more than any film maker we have to me, his work is moving art. it's as elusive and complicated and wild and outrageous as the original twin peaks.

but i think some amazing surprises, as well. i just feel privileged to get to be part of it. >> i mean, i guess for every actor or many, there is a special relationship with a particular director. what it is about the love between you and david lynch? >> well, we did "blue velvet" when i was 17 and he became my family. he watched me grow up. he knows my family. he knows everything about me and so being directed by a family member is -- has such a specific in in un intimacy but the way he knows actors pushes me to perhaps the further reaches of what david expects of an actor i might have been bold enough to attempt myself, and i do believe he makes me braver and more radical

and more trusting of my own self-as an actor, which is just incredible to get to have that relationship. >> are there characteristics or traits of directors that work best for getting the most out of you? it's a strange question because i assume given how great you are, every time you step on the set you're delivering your best. as i watch you describe that relationship with david, it's almost like there is something about him that pulls something additional out of you. >> when i'm out of worry. >> yeah. >> i am sure i'm my truest self- self self- -- self. >> okay. >> in every area of my life. compassionate loving people who trust you, i think for me brings the best art out of the story. it's what i've experienced and it's certainly what i experience in relationships, in life, with

my children, with friends. work is very much that way and david is at the top of that list, and i've had several film makers who are like that and jonathan demi who we just lost who i'm sure you knew was one of my dearest friends. you know, you're home when you're with artist and film makers like that that make you feel so confident you'll try anything. i think it's the daring take after take with which you find something incredibly unexpected or broken or honest or funny that wasn't even necessarily in the writing and that's when it gets really exciting to explore. >> since you mentioned demi and i did know him and we did projects together and he was a nld s standing rock but did the last little documentary project. i miss him terribly as i know you do. what do you think his legacy as a film maker is?

>> his legacy as a human that watching the people who circled around after he passed and seeing all of us who loved him. there was no one that wasn't from a different area of his life. you know, to imagine like activists, animal lover, father, husband, artist, a man who if he is worried about haiti, he moves to haiti. if he hears about occupy wall street, he goes and lives in a tent as he's documenting what is happening. i know very few people who throw themselves into life with such joy. food, oysters, wine. you know, you know. jonathan, his animals. he was just a great lover of all of it. the beauty and the mess of this journey we're on and i am blessed like you to have been part of his ride. what a gift. >> you mentioned the "star wars"

outf outfit. broke this the other day. the costume is out now. so what can you tell me about the last jedi. >> all i can say -- >> here -- [ laughter ] >> here we go again. >> is -- >> you don't -- [ laughter ] >> you know it's not going to end well with they start out with all i can say is. >> i really love my costume. >> yeah. >> and yes, i'm an admiral and, you know what, actually, what i can say? you and i are sitting here having dinner not on a talk show, i would say oh my god, i was in "star wars." i remember being onset and looking around thinking i'm 8 years old and playing at my friend's house and we're playing "star wars," and that's chew

baca. kathy kennedy that produced this amazing legacy and jurassic park, to hear from her and work with her in any capacity is beautiful to be part of the "star wars" saga is incredible and the film maker is amazing. ryan johnson who wrote and directed it. we did looper, which was incredible. he is so inventive and you feel like you're on a small independent movie. i mean, some of us, i remember at one point felt like are we supposed to remind him this is "star wars" because this is feeling so comfortable and easy. so familiar and yet, it's this massive under taking. time of my life. >> how do you process? you said something about this a moment ago. how do you process this when you see your life sort of come in

full circle to your point, you're a kid wanting this and as an adult you get a chance to act, to star in it? >> it's the amazing thing about our careers as we've now -- we're having a lifetime of having these careers and relationships that we have is that that keeps happening over and over again now, doesn't it? >> yeah. >> i'm talking to the president of the united states. i'm talking to mandela. i'm talking to an actor. you had this incredible career and now legacy of interviews that are forever archived, too, that are extraordinary and for me, it's like i'm in "star wars" or with my dad at the academy awards and he's being honored. you know, all the things that i get to do in my life that feel like i'm pinching myself because i remember the kid watching my parents and i'm little at home with my grandma doing what they love and now i get to be in part

of this community that they introduced me to, a film i'm madly in love with. >> i promised i wouldn't raise. i preface this by saying i know you can't talk about this. you haven't said anything else anyway. if you start out by saying all i can say is i'll except that. >> okay. >> i was reading an article. i read a couple where there are a number of people in this town. head of the academy is not running again and there are a number of people in this town, number of high profile people saying laura dern ought to consider running for the academy. that must feel good when your colleagues are even saying your name about it and actresses head of the academy. >> gregory pact. >> actors who done it. it must feel good to have people

say lair ura dern must be a goo candidate. that's what i thought. >> all i can say is -- [ laughter ] >> tavis is incredibly generous to be thought of in that way. i love the academy. i'm so excited about the academy h museum, which is going to change los angeles. it's going to be the most extraordinary of l.a. history and film and people around the world will go crazy when they see this extraordinary story of film history and it is on. so that's going to be incredible to be part of in whatever capacity they would like me to participate i'm excited. you know. >> okay. i'll take it. >> tavis. >> i hope you enjoy this conversation with laura dern who said nothing about nothing but always welcome to come on and talk about nothing. she's in everything and she can't talk about nothing.

in "twin peaks" can't talk about it. she's in "star wars, the last je jedi" can't talk about it. i love you and nothing you can do about it so good to see you again. thanks for watching and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> i'm tavis smiley, join me at pbs.org. >> i'm tavis smiley, join me next time, see you then. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com

>> and by contributions to your pps station from viewers like you.s station from viewers like you. thank you. bs station from viewers like you. thank you.

good evening from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley, this weekend, thousands of marchers gathered. a conversation with maxine waters who believes there was collusion and has pledged to fight day and night to hold donald trump accountable. we're glad you joined us, a conversation with maxine waters in just a moment.