. good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. prime minister winston churchill on the crown has taken awards at the critics choice and sag awards. this weekend you can catch him as a billionaire property developer in the film "beatriz at dinner." we're glad you joined us. the conversation with john lipco coming up in just a moment.

♪ ♪ >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ ♪ always pleased to have john lithgow on this program. the prolific actress won trophies for his protraoor tra churchill and you can catch him on the big scene in the dark cam me, "beatriz at dinner." here a scene from "beatriz at dinner".

>> when i first came to the united states a long type aime >> did you come legally? >> yes. >> how did that work? >> i had family on my mother eastside. >> they are all zit zcitizens. >> you work for the ins? >> i'm curious. a lot of people come here illegally. i was curious how she did it. >> i'm laughing already because i have seen this, i whispered to you when you walked on the set, i've not seen you play a guy i dislike so much, as much as i love you, i have not seen you play a guy i dislike so much since maybe "ricochet" with denzel and you reminded me your character in "dexter" wasn't the nicest guy. >> you know, i'm a full service entertainer. [ laughter ] >> you put it to good use in this one, man. >> i play the good guys and bad guys and most interestingly, the people who fall somewhere in

between. >> yeah, what is the joy of playing the bad guys, the mean guys, the arrogant guy? >> well, you see, i don't even consider him the bad guy. when you play this role, you think of him as the righteous one. he thinks he's right so you got to put yourself into t that min set, and so does the writer, michael white, mike white. he just sort of -- he loves just the curiosity of human beings. and these are complicated times. i mean, this is a complicated villain. his name is doug strut. he is a billionaire developer. >> strut is the right name? yeah. [ laughter ] >> he's got a certain swagger to him. >> yeah, but he's very comfortable with his decisions in life. he has no conscience or remorse about everything. everything is prague mmatic. >> who does this remind you of?

>> yeah. [ laughter ] >> the thing is i, this movie h all the culture clash story. it's a dinner party among three billionaires and their wives, which by a couple of turns of plots, there is a seventh guest and this is a poor mexican immigrant who works as a physical therapist for the lady of the house. this is sal is salma. this is a dialogue, sort of debate between my character and s salma's. it's rare when you see someone from the extremely rich end of the social and economic spectrum debating with someone at the very bottom, and it makes for comedy at first and then it gets more and more uncomfortable as such a dinner party would. >> first of all, you described that brilliantly. i love how you did that.

makes my work easier. >> a hard one to describe. >> it is hard to describe. the social commentary in this thing is seiring by the time ths thing starts to turn. when you read this on paper, were you immediately turned on by this? >> yeah, you're always turned on by dialogue that's that good and has that much crackle to it. i already knew it was mike's dialogue and i had been in his film, flat out orange county and i knew, you know, he's interested in comedy but also interested in much, much broader things. when he set out to write this, he and miguel, the director, who has worked frequently with mike, they went to salma and they just presented this as an idea. what if this character beatriz

got stuck in a suburb party with six wealthy people? what would happen? they got her excited about the very idea and two weeks later, mike presented her with a script. he wrote it that quickly. he knows these people. he's very, very interested in the tensions between the people that come at situations from a completely different direction and it just raid ydiateradiated. i thought gosh, i want to do this. it's a comedy about what is really going on. i mean, we go through our lives, one of the problems in our lives is people from different segments of our society just don't communicate with each other, nor do you ever see entertainment where they communicate with each other and fight with each other. and that's what mike set out to

do. i was just fascinated by that challenge. >> when you chin checked me as nicely and lovingly as you did a few minutes ago but saying, tavis, i don't seem as the bad guy. i know where you're going. you're right, in his mind he isn't the bad guy. he believes what he believes and isn't shy about expressing opinions and so i took your point when you said that. and yet, the flip side of that is that that kind of arrogance and elite as one sees in this film is hard to breakthrough and makes me wonder how it is that we in fact do that in a world where class is so entrenched. if the people we're talking about are like the character you play and there isn't any there there to appeal to. >> it's very unsettling. it's a troubling film.

it's a challenging film in this way. but i think it's very accurate. there are these social enclaves, certain golf courses, certain social clubs where people have set up sort of em batt em bat t battles around them. they are a protected breed. yet, there is human beings, they -- in doing the film i was quite surprised and excited by how miguel our director, he would direct me to really enjoy himself, genuinely enjoy himself, be very comfortable. he himself was interested in looking around the other side. i mean, of course, particularly liberal film goers already bring all sorts of expectations to

this film. they have, they have their -- we, i should say, i'm a liberal democrat myself i know what the vision and the point of view of this film is and yet, miguel was intent on turning that on its head, on really challenging people. doug strut says some very frightening things, particularly toward the end. he completely accepts, for example, the fact that the environment is decaying and the earth is doomed. he accepts that. what can you do about it? it's heart-stopping because he's going at the things that terrify us most, and yet, here is a person not afraid of that whose, as i say, it's very unsettling stuff. >> because as you said earlier,

john, because he and all his cohorts at the dinner table are in fact homo sapiens, human being, as well. i have to believe every human being that is worth respecting. no matter how wrong they may be, they have a humanity that is worth respecting, how did you connect to the humanity in this character? >> through his humor. i mean thanks had a lot to do with it. through his own enthusiasms when he talks about game hunting in africa, for example. he talks about it with real genuine passion, something that really reaches him emotionally. try to find the things that animate this man and get him excited and make him laugh. it's just -- it's just what you do when you approach a

character. you try to find out what makes him tick and that's particularly important if you play somebody who people already know is the villain. purely on the basis of what they have seen in the quotes as you walk into the theater. >> yeah. >> it's important to up end that because nobody is the villain in his own story. >> what -- i've been around people like this in my lifetime and in my work, and you just -- it's so unsettling and never seizes to amaze me how people can be so blind to the opinions, the feelings, the world view, the experiences of others and this scene you raised now is a powerful example of that. so as you recall from the film, he passes around his cell phone with the picture of his hunting, his conquest. >> his conquest.

p >> perfect word. when it gets to beatriz, she unloads and throws the phone across the room. the fact that he couldn't even process or see that coming or just didn't have another way of viewing how somebody else might see his conquest, is just numbing to me. >> but look at how he responds? he laughs like wow, this is great. >> yeah. >> you know, the thing is we all live in our little worlds, it's very rare that people venture out of their world and we are all -- we are all subject to group think as a result. you know, my circle of friends, academics and theater, my wife is a professor.

many of our friends are simply faculty members from ucla. op ed letters but it's very, very important to see what in the world is going on on the other side of the sort of political divide. it's the most distressing thing about society right now is this huge gulf. none of us can figure out why the other side can possibly be thinking this. >> how do you do that by your own admission, i'm coming away from the film to your personal world, when your world when your point of view right thought may be is reinforced by your wife and friend and colleagues, how do you see the other side? now we're back to strut in the film who didn't see -- didn't -- couldn't appreciate another point of view. >> well, curiously, doug strut does see the other point of view, at least he has certainly

seen it before. >> yeah. >> people have protested. >> he finds it laughable, though. >> he dismisses it because he's far, far more powerful than they are and he knows they can't -- they can't bend his trajectory at all. he's going to accomplish what he sets out to do because he's done it 100 times before. he has power. and he has the come plko compla snugness of power. he's a curiously appealing character because he's fun to be with. at least this is how mike has written it and miguel directed it. to me this is what gives the film the terrific tension and makes it so challenging. you know, you simply got to accept the fact, for example, this our government is doing what it's doing right now because it's happening. >> yeah. >> you got to -- i don't know about accept it but you got to

acknowledge it and figure outweighs to resist it and at least creating a dialogue. i mean, it's a film that creates a conversation, i think. >> when the struts of the world run the world and have that kind of power, that kind of authority, that kind of control, when they think they are or in fact appear to be untouchable, if in fact, these are the folk who run the world, what are we to do about that? agency did beatriz really have in that scenario? beatriz is fearless. she goes ahead and says it. that's the most important thing is courage and to really make very clear to yourself what your convictions are and act on them. i say that, i'm not -- i'm not a particular ll lly courageous pe myself but it's time to stand up and say what you believe.

in fact, there is a lot of -- i think, in the midst of -- this is a very upsetting time. i mean, i read the news every morning and get in a state of hysteria about the damage that's being done in my view but it's also a time of sort of creative ferment politically. people are rising up and acting. i mean, it's very significant these political races are getting a lot closer now. and as soon as this devastating election took place in my world view, it was devastating, but the next day i began to already think well, this could be a good year. this is going to be a great year because people like this have a self-destructive streak. they tend to destroy the things that they have built up before our very eyes and we're seeing it. we're seeing it.

as i saw it in 1973, the last time i was this obsessed with journalism and what was being read, written about politics, was in the spring of 1973. >> when the whole government fell apart and ambition. >> richard's white house counsel sat in this very chair, some weeks ago and was fascinating to have a conversation with john dean about the parallels as he saw between that moment and this trump moment if i can put it that way. erie to hear his sharing of what he -- of what those comparisons are since you remember that period just as a citizen, does it feel as erie as icky now as you recall it feeling then to you? >> well, the interesting thing about water fwgate is you felt

something is curious here. something is wrong. this isn't quite right. and then suddenly, it exploded and you -- this is quite different. things are happening so fast right before our eyes. every day something essential that happened in the last eight years of a very good presidency is being taken away from us, and you're just seeing it happen concur renlt rant with that scas things are coming to light so there is a hunger for things to move faster. i do believe these scandals will bring this administration down, i just want it to happen fast. >> sooner than later. >> yeah. >> i've asked this question of others but i'm curious to ask it of you given the role that you play in this film. >> uh-huh. >> and given your earlier comment that you're not particularly politically

courageous, a person that speaks his own mind on this program and elsewhere. what do you see as the role of the citizen artist in this moment. >> you know, tavis, i did do beatriz at dinner. i did do the crown, which is wonderful meditation on leadership in government but in the middle of that, i did trierl a -- trial error, "pitch perfect" and nut ball entertainment. as i said, i'm a full service entertainer. >> yes, sir. >> my job in life is to delight, excite, sometimes terrify people. just keeps them entertained. it's a wonderful thing when i do something that actually hits the mark, which actually moves the goalpost, moves the chains down the field in terms of expanding

people's consciousness when i did "world according to garb." when i did "love a strange." when i did "and butterfly" on broadway. these are all pieces which in their way really jostle people's mind set and expand in people's consciousness. it's a wonderful thing when you can do that as an actor, but you can't make it your main mission. your main mission is simply do your job, delight people. you know, make them -- give them emotioional exercise to make th cry. make them laugh and make them scream out in terror. [ laughter ] >> those are my jobs. and if possible, make them think but that's not completely necessa necessary. >> i take all of that and yet, you will never convince me that you did not take or do not take

or will not take a particular delight in this film, given the resonance of it in a time such as this. >> yeah, no, i'm so glad. we made this film in september. this was around the time when i saw your great interview with andrew sullivan who predicted the results of the presidential election. i watched that and said well, scary words andrew, but don't worry, that's not going to happen. well, by the time we finished the film, they were finishing the final cut of the film when the election took place. suddenly the film was it suddenly cast a shadow it didn't have before. it suddenly became a much more provocative film, as provocative as it was because it was really about our moment. >> yeah. >> our political moment. >> so here is the tricky question. so i'm only going to ask it and you having started the film and seen the film will know how to

answer this without giving too much away. i wrestled with the way that thing ended. >> i knew you were going to ask that. i knew you were going to ask that. >> i'm not giving anything away. >> neither am i. >> i'm just saying john lithgow, i wrestled, my spirit was vexed by the way that thing ended. what savy you about that? >> people have got to see this film to see what you're talking about. >> yeah. >> like i said, it's a complicated film. it's a very troubling film. it's a film written by a very funny man about a very serious subject and you end up with intentionally conflicted feelings at the end. and how can you not? when the film is about the things it's about. i mean, i agree with you. i was very -- there are moments in the film that are extremely upsetting. but if you put together this

combination of people, for an entire evening. >> and windchill whatch and hap >> and watch them drink wine and smoke dope, crazy things will happen. the truth can be unsettling and very unhousing. i close on this note, in this moment, this for real moment off the screen, are you hopeful and if you are, how do you sustain your hope? makes you hopeful? >> i'm a very hopeful person. i'm an optimistic person, sometimes stupidly optimistic. i went and voted for hillary clinton on the morning of november 8th and i felt like a million bucks. i felt like i voted for the first woman president and i believed in her as a candidate. and my hopes were dashed. you know, i felt like a fool for being so optimistic but then i was optimistic again the next day. i don't know. maybe it's just my nature. i am in the business of

exploring crazy possibilities. i am a story teller, and the stories i tell are -- when i'm lucky, they are really good ones and it's very -- it's a very exciting thing to do with your life and that's what keeps me hopeful. >> wait. you're luckier than most. >> you know how lucky -- i know how lucky. >> i didn't mean like that. you said when i'm lucky, you do a lot of good stuff and playing lucky do. >> i'm always on to have john on this program. insights profound and i learn something and i go to bed at night after talking to you. i feel smarter. >> i can return the compliment. >> sincerely, i feel smarter and you challenge me to re-examine assumptions and reexpand my ideas. >> keep the faith. [ laughter ] >> love that. >> "beatriz at dinner" is the film. i highly recommend it.

that's the show tonight. thanks for watching and as always, keep the faith. >> what? you think i'm the source? >> she doesn't think that. >> i think she does. you give me too much credit. >> i think all your pleasures are built on others today. >> that's bull. look, i'm a big boy, okay? listen, honey, i think you have great depth of feeling you project onto the world but to be honest, the world doesn't need your feelings, it needs jobs. it needs money. it needs what i do. >> the world doesn't need you, no. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. hi, i'm tavis smiley, join me next time for identifying mental illness in your kid and a new single performed. that's next time, see you then. ♪

♪ >> and by viewers like you, thank you. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with award-winning filmmaker oliver stone. the dvd and blu-ray release of his film, "snowden," comes out december 27th, and there's also a new book out about his work. it's called "the oliver stone experience." we'll talk about that and much more tonight with filmmaker oliver stone, coming up in just a moment. ♪