>> rose: welcome to the program. we begin this evening with politics and a look at attorney general jeff sessions' testimony to the senate intelligence committee today in washington. we talk to karoun demirjian of "the washington post." >> every time he answered a question about his contacts with russia, there was a caveat. he kept saying, i don't remember, i do not recall, i don't have any recollection of that, i ed my brain trying to think of something but i can't actually recall anything, and once when senator harris was questioning him he said, if i don't give you these cavias, you will accuse me later of being a liar, which is certainly a denial of things potentially coming up down the line. >> rose: we continue with secretary of treasure steven mnuchin talking about new efforts by the treasure department to change relations havinhaving to do with the final

world. >> we've focused on sustained economic growth, 3% of hiring, getting the economy back to where it should be, tax reform, regulatory relief and trade. >> rose: we continue with the manager of the chicago cubs, joe maddon. >> it's all about trust. when i took the job with the cubs, i had three things things on my mind. so build relationships with the group, and once i did that i knew trust would be established, and once we did that, we could have a free exchange of ideas. if you don't build relationships and have trust, there is pushback when ideas are exchanged. so then you get this open conversation where things are not just trying to say things to ameliorate your needs or wants, they're going to give you honest feedback. in the game, i will say trust your guys, i will say that to myself. when things get hot, if a

pitcher is in trouble or you think about pinch hitting, trust your guys and walk away from the moment. >> rose: the sessions' testimony, secretary moochen and joe maddon, when we continue. >> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by the following: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we begin tonight with. attorney general jeff sessions appeared before the senate

intelligence committee today, called before the committee to testify about his contact with russian officials. recusalle from the ongoing russian investigation and his role in president trump firing of f.b.i. director james comey. the exchange was at sometimes combative with some senators accusing him of stonewalling. >> i believe the american people have had it with stonewalling. americans don't want to hear answers to relevant questions are privileged, off limits, can't be provided in public or it would be "inappropriate" for witnesses to tell us what they know. we are talking about an attack on our democratic institutions and stonewalling of any kind is unacceptable. and general sessions has acknowledged there is no legal basis for this stonewalling. >> senator wyden, i am not

stonewalling. i am following the historic policies of the department of justice. you don't walk into any hearing or committee meeting and reveal confidential communications with the president of the united states -- >> rose: sessions told the senate any suggestion he was involved with or aware of russian meddling in last year's election is an appalling and detestable lie. joining me now from washington is karoun demirjian, she covers national security and foreign policy for "the washington post." >> good to be back. >> rose: how do we assess what happened today with the attorney general? >> well, it depends on which side of the aisle you're looking at it from. the attorney general did say frequently -- he was asked by members of both sides of the aisle what his role was in the firing of james comey, what his residence was of events that james comey last week said transpired between himself and the president and himself and sessions. then for his more detailed rendition of what the terms of

his recusal are from any probes of the d.o.j. that involve the trump campaign, he was sometimes aided in these questions in giving answers by his republican colleagues. he's a former senator so a lot of these people are his friends, and he was more challenged by democrats. it depends on which side of the aisle you were on whether you think this was a good or bad day for sessions because certainly he said emphatically he does not remember having any additional contacts with the russian ambassador or any other russian officials, that he does not think that anything was the content of the conversation he is did disclose was problematic. he went back to the confirmation hearing from january and said i did not lie and suppositioned that i was not telling the truth is completely unfair and lost his temper at one point where he bellowed at senator wyden who was pushing him hard in a certain line of questioning. but from the other side, democrats kept hearing sessions was refusing to answer questions

without legal justification for why, that his account did not completely jibe with comey. there is also a theme that every time he answered a question about his contacts with rust, there was a caveat. he kept saying i don't remember, i do not recall, i don't have any recollection of that, i've racked my brain trying to think of something but i can't recall anything and once when senator harris was questioning him he said if i don't give you these caveats you will accuse me later of being a lier which is a denial but leaves a door open for things potentially coming up down the line. >> rose: did he help further our understanding of what the russians have done, might have wanted to do and how they might have accomplished it? >> not really. there was certainly a lot of discussion more prompted by republicans questions of we should be focusing more on what the russians did and what these

allegations that they interfered in the 2016 elections and how appalling sessions says it would be if that's what transpired but he didn't really offer any new information or fact about that to lead to a conclusion and that devolved into a little bit of a well, we should focus on this and democrat would be, like, look, trump fired the signature f.b.i. director running the probe, we have to think of this as well now and ask why. and so, you know, certainly there is a lot of lip service paid to that and discussion of the import of it and the seriousness of it and the gravity -- the gravidas surrounding the focus that everybody thinks should be there on what russia did or did not do in terms of actually getting to the nitty gritty of exposing or shedding any light on that, there was very little of that today. >> rose: did he say anything about what some reported the displeasure of him holding him responsible for the fact robert robermueller is now special cou?

>> sessions basically sawed he had no contact with mueller since he was appointed special counsel. this morning when deputy attorney general rod rosenstein was testifying where they were asking questions basically about will mueller be able to have the independence to do his job, will there be undue influence coming from the white house? and rosenstein was saying, look, basically, i'm not going to fire mueller if i don't think there is cause and i have to be the one to green light it if it's going to happen and it's not going to happen if there is not a better reason and sessions is saying i'm not talking to the trump administration about the investigation because i was never briefed on it so house of i supposed to be involved in any part of it. lots of swilling questions about

are there discussions and understandings had not documented in the written record, the written recording with the memos and letters that went back and forth around the time comey was fired and shortly afterwards when the special prosecutor was appointed, are they taking him and others at their written word or is there speculation there was more going on in discussions or understandings behind the scenes that was never written down? a lot of times you heard senators asking, you know, we want to see your notes and sessions saying, well, i don't keep notes on every conversation. so it may never actually be put to rest all this speculation and it depends on how inclined senators are to believe them and believe the version of events that is documented versus the one speculated to potentially have been bubbling along behind the scenes. >> rose: do i understand from what you just side that rosenstein the dip attorney general said if anybody's going

to fire morel, it's not going to be the president or the attorney general, it's going rosensteins attorney general in this regard since sessions recused himself. even if there is pressure by the president, rosenstein has to sign the paper. he said he would not do that unless he found cause and right now fugue viewing the job mueller is doing he does not think there is good cause to fire mueller so he's saying i think this is going to go ahead smoothly and i am going to do my part to make sure he has the independence to function. that hasn't fully satisfied democrats who want it put in writing he will never fire mueller, but there is ultimate check and balance on mueller so he doesn't have the liberty to run an investigation that runs off the rails in the other direction. but as far as procedures, it has

to go through similar at some point if mueller will go. >> rose: do we know if the president has tapes? >> no, we're still waiting for the president to say whether he has tapes. the house intelligence committee asked for them formally at the end of last week and they gave the president until june 23 which is a ways off. the president indicated there might be some time this week whether they were in and would say they exist but no new word on that. >> rose: does 'do we know if the president is going to go under oath and testify and be questioned by whoever would do the questioning? >> we just know what the president said which is sure he would be and a lot of members of congress said that's great but nobody said and thus we're going to schedule the president for some testimony. i'm not totally convinced they will be doing that. if there is investigative value to it, i'm sure eventually we'll get to the point where some of the committees may decide the do that. but you can imagine giveton spectacle and the controversy

and everything else surrounding the testimony of comey and sessions, if trump were to be next in that line, that would be -- will be mind blowing. i don't think the committees are ready for that and i don't think they have been gearing up for that before trump said sure, i'll say this under oath. if it gets to the point where they need it, it may happen but it's an open door i don't think people are walking through. >> rose: lots of people criticized james comey but has anybody contradicted him as theo the things he said? >> not so much contradiction as kind of undercutting his meant patrol seases of what he was going through. a lot of what comey is saying his impression of what the president was driving at and his own discomfort. sessions did not call comey a liehig yarr. he criticized comey's process in the clinton email probe and said

comey would have to go before he was confirmed and talked to rosenstein before either were confirmed to their current positions. the interesting thing that sessions did do is say if comey really felt uncomfortable, there's a process through which he could have and should have reported it to, at the time, acting attorney general, and the attorney general didn't get a report like that. so he's not saying oh, he's a liar and making up this story, but it's basically casting some doubt in the direction of comey because he's saying, well, look, if this was as serious he was saying there are is he should have dotted and ts he should have crossed so not finishing the sentence in terms of what sessions was suggesting. not as harsh as the president's tweets but it leaves the door open for the president to be able to say what the president is going to say and sessions can sit in the middle and not directly contradict either one. >> rose: thank you for joining us, pleasure. >> thank you. >> rose: back in a moment. stay with us.

>> rose: the u.s. treasury department unsweeping recommendations monday which would eliminate or dampen regulations in response to the 2008 fake news and proposes limiting the power the consumer financial protection bureau and reducing capital standards required of banks. the trump administration seeks to grow the economy at more than 3%. ambition is contingent on efforts to overhaul the tax code and other fiscal initiatives. joining me from washington, treasury secretary steven mnuchin. welcome. >> thanks, charlie. great to be with you. >> rose: tell me what you help to accomplish with this regulation. >> well, what we're really doing is looking at all the regulations around the president's core principals on financials and the first report

is focused on banks and u.s. depes tores. we're focused on what are the recommendations we can make that will drive growth in community banks, credit unions and regional banks? if you look at the u.s. banking system, 50% of the assets are held in the top a.g.sibs. we want to unlock the burdensome regulation on the other banks so they can make sure they are lending to small and medium-sized businesses in their communities. >> rose: one interesting question people ask, they say unemployment is low, the markets are very hot, and why -- and there have been no crises since 2008, why do we need to fix it if it ain't broke? >> well, charlie, you know, for a lot of people, the system is working, but there is an awful lot of people that the system

isn't working, and although we have very low unemployment, there is a lot of people who have left the labor force because they can't find jobs, and there is a lot of people who for the last ten years they haven't seen wage increases, and we're focused on creating sustained economic growth, the 3% or higher, getting the economy back to where we think it is and, as you said, that's a combination of tax reform, regulatory relief and trade. >> rose: you have to find, in your judgment, balance between protecting taxpayers and loosening regulation to enhance growth. how do you find the balance? >> that's what the assignment has been about. we've gone out and held listening sessions. this isn't just about the treasury department printing an academic study. this is about we've gone out to over 18 different groups, many that did 50 to 100 people here. we've taken written comments and we've went out to everything --

consumer advocates, regional banks, all the regulators -- and we've tried to come back with recommendations where we balance never putting the taxpayers at risk and, two, making sure our banking system can be competitive and especially that small and medium-sized businesses have the proper access to capital. >> rose: what else are you considering in this as you but this together? as you mentioned, this is one of four, is important for you in crafting this first part of financial regulations? >> let me point out two other aspects that we put in this report. one is we're calling for a review of the community reinvestment act. the c.r.a. act is a very important act for banks, and we want to make sure that, when banks are investing in their communities, that they're doing things that are really good for the community, and we're going to reach out to consumer advocates. we're going to reach out to housing advocates. we want to make sure, as long as banks are spending billions of

dollars, that it's not just a check the box exercise, that that money is going in and helping the economy, particularly in low and moderate-income families. the other recommendation we've made is to increase certain powers of the fsoc where i as chair bring together the regulators and, where there are multiple regulators looking at the same thing in a bank, to appoint a lead regulator to coordinate. those types of things. it's about sound regulation, but it's about proper regulation. >> rose: how will you change the consumer prodetection agency? >> our biggest objection to the consumer protection agency is it has no oversight. we've made one of two recommendations. we've either said there should be a board that oversees the consumer protection bureau very similar to the fed and the fdic,

or the head of the administration should be able to removed at will by the president. the other thing, we think the funding shouldn't be a blank check and should go through congressional approval like other funding. >> and the president should have the ability to fire the head of the consumer president agency? >> either like the o.c.c. and other independent regulators, the white house should be able to remove the person without cause or, if they can't do that, there should be an independent board that overseas that person is that let me talk about general bigger ideas. in terms of tax reform, not necessarily a bigger idea, but the secret si of the legislative agenda. the president said healthcare comes first, tax reform and regulation and infrastructure. at the same time, there is a sense that if he had started with infrastructure, he miffed more people on board and might have been more success 1/2

finding common ground with democrats. >> well, charlie, let me just first say the president's been very hard at work on all these issues. i think as it relates to tax reform, some people questioned whether we should have gone first. i have been working on tax reform since january here, meeting with the house and the senate. i worked with the president on the campaign. tabs reform is complicate. it's been 30 years since we've had comprehensive tax reform and we are working as fast as we can to come out with a plan where we have buy-in from the house and senate to get something passed this year. >> rose: where does that stand? >> we're working. there are meetings every day and we're optimistic we're going to get this done. >> rose: we is a a statement of principles about a month ago. when will we see the entire legislative proposal coming from the administration? >> well, again, let me just comment, the reason why we came out with a statement of

principles and not a full-blown plan is that this has to be a process where we work with the house and the senate, and, as i said, we're working every week with them as fast as we can. our objective is to get this passed this year, and we'll release it as soon as it's ready. >> rose: many people referred to the mnuchin rule which is a rule that says the tax plan would benefit middle class taxpayers, not the highest earners. is that how you would define it? >> well, again, i'm honored there are certain people who actually have named a rule after me, but let me say what i've said from the beginning is the president's objective is to create a middle income tax cut, simplify person taxes and make business taxes competitive. where we're lowering taxes on the high end taking away almost all deductions other than mortgage interest and charitable, and that's really

what we're focused on. >> rose: what about repatriation of money restored by u.s. companies overseas? >> as you know, we have one of the highest tax rates in the world. we tax on worldwide income which most other countries don't do and have a concept of deferral. so it's not a surprise our companies leave trillions of dollars offshore. so as part of tax reform, we want to move to a territorial system, and we want to have a system where those companies will bring back trillions of dollars and invest it here in the united states for u.s. goods and u.s. jobs. >> rose: the question always comes up when you're cutting taxes and tax reform is where are you going to get the revenues that come from cutting taxes. and your answer is? >> we're going to broaden the base. so fundamentally, this is about lowering rates, broadening the base. people have many less deductions. i think, as you know, there are a lot of companies that don't pay the full tax rate because of all different types of special interests, and there is a lot of

personal people that don't pay the top rate because of all the deductions. so this is about simplifying the tax code, making it competitive and broadening the base. >> rose: and finally this point -- the president had a cabinet meeting, which i assume you were there -- >> i was, indeed. >> rose: just describe that to me. here's the president saying, had the greatest legislative, the greatest achievement of any new president perhaps with the exception of roosevelt who had special circumstances. then each cabinet member stepped forward to lavish this extraordinary, extraordinary praise, like, mr. president, you're the greatest human being i've ever met and it's just such an honor to work for you. was that staged? how did that come about? >> well, charlie, let me just say everybody in that room felt the same way and this is the way i feel. it is the greatest honor to serve this country and serve this president, and that's why we're all here. you have a lot of very successful people that came from

business and government and other things. you know, we couldn't be prouder of the cabinet and we couldn't be prouder to sit here and work for the president. we all have the same job, which is grow the economy, make the world safe and make things better for americans. >> rose: are you concerned about what's happening in terms of the investigation in the russian probe and the fact that you have james comey making accusations against the president, you have the attorney general speaking today as we talk. others will be called to testify before the senate and house intelligence committees and the justice department. does it concern you? do you think the president is under siege? you know this man very well. >> it doesn't concern me at all. i can tell you the president is working unbelievably hard every day for the american people. that's what he's focused on. that's what we were focused on at the cabinet, that's what we're focused on with tax reform, that's what we're focused on as we sit in the

national security council. this is a distraction. the investigation will go on. it's a distraction. >> rose: and you think the president will come out of this okay? >> i think beyond okay. the president, as s you know, jt got back from a very important trip awe broad where he wento the gulf. we signed an important memorandum of understanding to fight terrorist financing with saudi arabia and we will co-chair this effort in the gulf. the president went to israel, n.a.t.o., and he's working harder than i've ever seen anybody work before for the american people. >> rose: and you think these legislative challenges will take place before the 2018 election? you think we will have a healthcare bill, tax reform, infrastructure bill and you think we will have the other legislative achieve meents that the president outlined essential to his first term?

>> eke assure you that i am -- i can assure you that i and the rest of the cabinet wakes up every day and we're focused on that agenda and we're committed to working with the house and the senate and getting these things done this year. >> rose: secretary mnuchin, thank you for joining us and being on the program. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: steven mnuchin, secretary of treasury. we'll be right back. stay with us. >> rose: joe maddon is here, he is the manager of the chicago cubs, the store idea baseball franchise had not won the world series since 1908, last year they captured the title in the world series in dramatic passion. maddon led the team to the 2008 world series. the cubs second place in the national league central standings. i am pleased to have joe maddon at the table for the first time. thank you for coming. >> thank you for inviting me. i'm honored to be here, sir.

i mean that sincerely. >> rose: thank you. so how is the team doing this year? >> opened an all. we have prolonged winning and losing streaks. we have been caught our stride yet but we will. coming off a world series in the last two years, the previous year we went to the nlc, lost to the mets and this year go to the world series, so it's been two long years, and i've really been conscious and aware of the mental state of our guys. the word "rest is important for me. it's important to reach our peak by august or september. it's not where reeled like to be now but not bad either. >> rose: what was your goal after coming off the world series when you had to face 2017. you knew you wanted to repeat andhead a core of a great team. >> to be uncomfortable. i did not want us to be complacent in any way. that was my first thought. i also wanted to play off the authentic component of our guys. authenticity. i thought that was a strong point of our players.

i think fans, even outside of chicago, are attracted to young cub players because of the authenticity of our group. so i want to understand that part of them, too. and i real will you wanted to focus on defense. everybody loves hitting home runs and et cetera, but a big part of our success last year was defense. so i really tried from the very first day to attack these different concepts -- to be uncomfortable, not to become complacent, to rely upon the authentic component of our nature and to catch the baseball and beyond that it's about managing people and personalities, the human element where you have just played two long seasons and come back with probably even higher expectations being thrown at you among the industry and from fans in general. so how do you manage a bunch of young players' minds? that's the other part on my mind. so it's -- we've talked about simplicity. i don't want the make this complex, but i thought all those things regarding the actual physical part of the game, but

then more importantly how do we manage the minds. >> rose: trust is also crucial. >> trust, it's all about trust, quite frankly. when i took over with the cubs, i had three things on my mind, to build relationships among the group, and once i did that then i knew their trust would be established, and then after that we could have a free exchange of ideas. if you don't build relationships and have trust there is always pushback when ideas are ever attempted to be exchanged. so if you get those two things in order first then you get the most important thing which is this open conversation where people aren't just trying to say things to ameliorate your needs and wants, they're going to give you honest feedback. during the a game i'll say to myself, trust your guys. i'll say that to myself when things get hot, a pitcher is in trouble or you're thinking about pinch hitting for somebody, trust your guys and walk away from the moment. >> rose: what's the toughest

decision for a manager to make after you've assembled your team? >> on a daily basis when it comes to managing your game, it's managing your bullpen for me. with us we have a unique situation, so many good young players. this morning i'm writing my lineup up before i came in and to place the right guys out there. it's tough to put young guys on a bench. that's a tough decision to make on a daily basis. as a major league manager, i think, the part of the day that's the most beneficial and difficult is the managing of the bullpen. putting the right guys on the right hitters, the right amount of rest, but any major league manager will tell you bullpen managing is the most important. >> rose: and when to call them? is important. >> yes, it is. we played a game against the rockies. i brought one of my better

relief pitchers in, in the fifth inning, which is unusual, but we had been struggling, were playing a good team, caught a lead and i did not want to relinquish the lead. i thought that was important. so probably went away from normal methods yesterday to try to salvage the game which we did. sometimes you go by the book, sometimes away from the book. for me, it's about preparation before the game, knowing your geese, knowing the opposition and trying to push that right but b at the right time. >> rose: so when theo came to see you to manage the red sox -- >> yes. >> rose: -- do you look back and say, you know, they did really good without me, but they did good for me because it gave me time to season before i became what i wante i wanted to? >> absolutely, they made the right decision. i mean that sincerely. i wasn't quite ready for all of that then. i was really impressed with theo

and jed in the interview process. i loved the idea of working with them at that time, i loved the idea of boston at that time. i thought i would live in a brown stone somewhere close to the ballpark, i would get to walk to work in this culturally involved city. the fan base really traditionally there for you. controversial at times. tough at times. but i thought that would be kind of interesting. but they did the right thing by choosing francona. but it definitely put the wheels in motion for me to get my job. i birmingham to be interviewed more because of that moment, but, listen, they did the right thing and i told them that before and said it publicly. >> rose: are you a bit like churchill when he came to ten downing in 1939, '40, 4 is, everything i've done has been preparing me for this moment? >> i'm on episode ten now and i'm such a fan of mr. churchill,

when you're going through hell, keep going, i love him for that also. i was 51 or 52 when i got the rays gig. i had been in the minor leagues and got to cut my teeth in a lot of different cities trying things that people think are crazy. i had a really good feel of what i think works and does not work, but i am thankful that it took me this long to get to this point because i am so much more convicted in what i do and how i do it to -- you know, i watch a lot of guys that come right out of playing and jump right into the managerial seat. i have no idea how they do it. i could not have dope that, frankly. i'm not just talking about the game myself. i'm talking about the media, dealing with your players, situations that arise that are unique that you've never been involved with before, so i'm really happy that it took me as long as it did to get to the major leagues as a manager.

>> rose: mike due sh dushesky, e senseov trust to talk to your players about anything to understand they are human beings and have all kind of motivations and thoughts that can either help them or get in the way of them being as good as they can be. >> is this totally agree with that comment. i don't have rules, quite frank ri. i'm not into rules. the only rule i have is to run hard to first base and want my pitchers to work on the defense. i don't have dress codes. if there are rules to be made, tippet players to make them themselves. the more freedom i give them, in a sense, the greater respect and discipline i get in return. what i do in spring training is have my lead bulls meeting where i get the most influential guys on a team together in a room and we sit down and discuss our policy. >> rose: what do you call it? the lead bulls. >> rose: the lead bulls.

from centennial by james mitchner, he'd get the lead bull running over a cliff, and eventually everybody else would push him over to the side. if you get your lead bulls running in the proper direction, they will direct everybody else. so we sit down in camp, come up with our policies. travel during the course of the playoffs was dictate by our prayers. >> rose: down three to oneo the indians, thed you simply say you guys can do this, don't brief you can't do it? i believe you can do it? you've got to believe you can do it? >> of course, they had to sea me on a daily basis not change, not panic, not start saying a bunch of crazy things and changing stuff. >> rose: not second guessing everything you did? >> right. that's easy to do it. happens in life and in our game. finishing poynting is a detrimental part of any group or society. within that three-one deficit, a lot of it is we weren't hitting the ball well.

i also knew if i won the game five at home, we have six of seven at cleveland and that's when kyle schwartz was going to be available and our pitching was good at that point, so i wasn't totally overtly distressed. i thought we had a chance at thatponent. i don't think think enough people give our players credit for not coffing in. >> rose: when it was all over an they had won, what do you think it did for them smrchlt for the players? >> rose: yeah. obviously, the goal is always to win the ring. it's always about winning and winning the ring and that sense of accomplishment as a professional athlete. beyond money and recognition, the ring is symbolic of i'm the best at what i do right now. so i think it starts with that. if you start working backward from that, there are other benefits to be geand. for me personally, i have to about my family. my dad passed away in 2002.

my mom -- my wife jai was in town, my kids, and the next part is the coaching staff. office grunt for so long and the money involved when you win for coaches is really, really important to their families and their existence. and i did think 108, which i did, i permitted myself that thought, anytime anybody came with the cubs, they were looking for the next world series victory. the moment rizzo caught the ball, i thought 108. >> rose: 108. 108. >> rose: you and i talked as we sat down, do simple better. what does that mean? >> well, eng too many times we're looking for a convoluted answers to questions and we believe if it's nonconvoluted it can't work. i believe reducing in the most simple form as possible. two years ago, i actually came up with a thought do simple

better. i want the cubs to do simple better. we don't have a whole bunch of plays. the ones we do have, i want us to run them better than ourselves. when i explained it in spring training, i said i wanted it to be like the packers sweep which they didn't remember. when you are proficient in what you do and reduce it, it's easy to repeat when things get hot. i'm a big proponent of that. we have the t-shirt with that on it to do simple better, and obviously i'm a huge believer in that. >> rose: it's interesting because when you look at do simple better, most of life goes back to the fundamentals, doesn't it? both in terms of values and skills. >> my god, yeah. i mean, just go for the baseball field. whenever we're struggling, all i want to do is harp on the fundamentals, and the simple things that when you do the simple things correctly more often than the other team, you win. really it's no more complicated

that. you break the other team's will to the relentless execution of fund mendells, and that is the simplicity of it and you're right, when i talk to my kids on the phone, i ask them to enjoy the struggle. i tell them how important it is to understand and enjoy that is that it is important. look at this, though, enjoy the struggle. think about this, be uncomfortable. >> yes, be uncomfortable. >> rose: and try not to suck. and we did not suck last year. that was born of conversation between david ross and i. the concept is try not to embarrass yourself. on a daily basis, a professional court, field, whatever, you don't want to embarrass yourself and if you reduce that it means try not to suck. so david and i kept going back and forth and javy baez came up and i said, at the end of the day it's about trying not to suck. he kind of giggled and all of a

sudden he said that and became a life form of its own and became a t-shirt for our foundation last year. >> rose: it's interesting to me, at the level you're at, managing a world series team, pitching in a world series, being in the major leagues, it's hard to be there. >> yeah. >> rose: and many don't stay for more than three or four seasons at the top. >> no, you're absolutely right. it's a very difficult existence. every day major league players, people have to understand how hard it is to do that and do it well, to play 150, 160 games annually, day games, night games, hot weather, cold weather, slumps, hot streaks, you're ill, something hurts you. the guys that do that and do it well, you really have a ton of respect for thatch that's not an easy thing to do. so when you're able to play and

participate on this level and play it well, for a long period of time, i have so much respect for that person. but you're right, probably the average length is probably three or four years the average shelf life of most players, especially in the n.f.l. with the high injure rates. >> rose: you don't know this about me, but i went to winter haven to the red sox game spring training. are they still at winter haven? >> no, they're in fort myers. >> rose: i went down to winter haven and i met ted williams. so ted williams and i became friends. >> cool. >> rose: and he was the minor league hitting coach. >> okay. >> rose: so we had this impromptu meeting before, he was a minor league hitting coach at the time, and he invited me and he said, look, i'll do a conversation with you, because i was then doing night watch and that was a cbs program that started at 2:00 a.m. and ended at 6:00 a.m. four hours later. ted williams got up at 4:00 to go fishing so i was his prime

time. we knew each other and he would invite me where he went fishing with people he liked. >> yes. >> rose: but what was amazing to me about him, you know, was the whole sense of how much he cared, as ben hogan did, about the techniques of the game. he wrote that wonderful book on letting, as hogan did on striking a golf ball. >> i actually did read that, the science of hitting. i never got to meet him. i would have loved to meet him. have had common friends from the past that i've had conversations about ted with, eah, it is the technical component of this game that real ledra the managet coaching as much, and there is definitely a distinction b both, but i started out as a coach in the minor leagues, and i've coached hitting, i've coached catching, base running, outfield, play, pitching, the whole gamut, and it is really interesting on a daily basis to

get involved with your players in a more technical components of actually playing the game physically. right now probably my job more leans to the mental side of the game where i can serve how to motivate, keep their minds conversationally, try to intellectualize the bay before i get to the ballpark. >> rose: seems like you're merged old traditional values like trust, be authentic, have a bit of fun as well with a real understanding of the technology of the game and what we're learning about the ability to use a laptop or to use numbers and data, to the you things that inform how you see reality on the field. >> i kind of agree with that. i mean, i'm rooted in really great teaching as a kid, mentored regarding the physical components of the game, as we went along in the late 1980s, i got my first word processor, a

panasonic, and my first laptop, a toshiba that probably weighs as much as this table, and then morphed into what we have today. i have been into numbers a long time when i worked for the angels, i broke down stuff in my own rudimentary ways. stuff like that is done at the click of the fingers. today that little card in my back pocket is dripping with anytical information i utilize, however at the end of the day the balance of stuff you learned since 1976 when you first got into the game in regards to the feel and understanding and methods of the game and when to do this or that in the game, so i really don't believe in extremism either way as a conservatism or liberal. i believe in grey. i believe grey exists and enough people don't -- they run away from grey. they have to be polar sized on one side or the other, so to morph numbers in teaching this

game that have withstood the test of time, that's is what i believe is the right way to be is that what would you do if you weren't managing? >> i have a great liberal arts education. if i had not done that, cornell was what i thought of, school of restaurant and hotel manager. i thought running a resort. >> rose: do you cook your own food? >> jai and i cook a lot. the r.v. is a house on wheels. i've got induction cook surfaces, a convection oven, washer/dryer, dish warrer, four tvs, direct tv. you could live like you live anywhere else. >> rose: there are some very, very highly skilled players on

the meanl -- on the golf circuit who travel, who really play well but they just enjoy it. they'd rather travel that way, it's their own and they're not taking a plane into a hotel. >> i totally agree with that concept. >> rose: how did they tell you -- was there one person that said to you, joe, you don't have enough speed, hitting ability, you're not going to make it? >> yeah. and i was really upset when i heard that. i was only the second year in minor league baseball. i was playing in california and doing well, probably hitting around .300. just hit a home run the right before. a guy named lloyd christopher whom i revere, from san francisco, played for the san francisco seals, was a contemporary of dimaggio, one of the hardest, toughest, coolest, greatest scouts in the history of our game walked up and said when are you going to

stop playing and start coaching? that's after hitting a home run, feeling hot about myself and here comes lloyd in my face asking me that question. i think i was 22 or 23 at the time. so that's when it became apparent to other people my tools weren't good enough and i should get into the other end of the game. >> rose: it's a hard thing to recognize. >> it is. you need to be a good self-evaluator. most of us are not at a certain point in our life. but i obviously kept it in the back of my mind. eventually, i was released by the angels, grabbed -- caught on to two independent teams in the california league, bakersfield and santa clara. the last month i played for 200 bucks a month and commuting in a volkswagen. that's how i existed. i was living in a closet. that's not an exaggeration. those were indicators it was time to get out. >> rose: what's the hazelton project? >> hazelton integration project, our baby back in hazelton,

pennsylvania. briefly a couple of years ago i went back home, i'm from a small town in eastern pennsylvania built on coal. there was a tremendous disconnect going on between a large influx of hispanics and the angelo group that had been there. it was a dark, fearful place on both sides. jai was with me, we flew back to california. while i was there, i told myself keep my eyes open and listen, and i thought, we have to do something about this because, again, briefly, my concept was we were pushing away back home the very people that were going to save our town. these people wanted to be there. they were young, had families, they were hard working, they believed in the family values and concepts. they were exactly like the italian family i grew up with, they're exactly like the polish family i grew up with. we romanticize the stories from grandpa and great grandpa from the past and now these folks have a chance to relive exactly

how it looked in the 1920s and 30s and we're pushing away because of the same reasons they were pushed away, the different language, the kids were dirty, more trouble, crime. >> rose: what are you doing? we built a community center and we're trying to bring people there and we have after-school programs, adult education programs, athletic programs. we're trying to just have both sides come together and understand that if we do this, this eventually will come together. it's working where we're partnering with different companies, the ripkins have put the money in for a gym that east an all purpose facility we can have batting practice in the went "time." >> rose: can i talk about this season who's going to be in the world series? >> the cubs.

we just have to find out who the american league chal will be. no, listen, we're going to straighten this whole thing out and i have so much faith in our guys. i have us going back again. >> rose: is it the indians? could be. listen, they're good. they're pretty much in the same boat we're in right now. their records and ours are almost identical, probably coming off the same kind of method from last season, but we just played the rockies, they're really good and a lot of the west coast teams, the dodgers have been good, the nationals are doing well, but i have a lot of belief in our guys, and, you know, the yankees will be a nice opponent, also. they just kicked our butt in chicago. doesn't matter. get back to the world series, we'll take on all comers at that point. >> rose: getting to the world series. >> difficult, man. >> rose: i know it is. but, i mean, to work all your life just to play in a world series game. >> yeah. >> rose: there are great players who never played in a world series game. >> absolutely. gene mock was my favorite. >> rose: my understanding of him, i know that you knew him.

>> yep. >> rose: he was one to have the smart managers. >> he's one of the few people i've ever met in my life, if he said something, i never challenged whether it was true or not when it came to baseball. if he walked in and my pack was to the door you could feel gene mock walk into a room, that's who he was. he treated me extremely well and gave me a lot of little nuggets to hole on to in the brief period of time that i worked with him. >> rose: are the players today simply better because of conditioning and everything else? >> they're stronger. >> rose: you can say nobody will ever hit the ball better than ted williams did. >> right. he was pretty phenomenal. you see what the kid judge is doing here powerwise. >> rose: i think i was 490 feet -- >> that's what i read. you can air go about the size and conditioning probably being better.

i can't tell you about necessarily being better baseball players. >> rose: better athletes? bigger, stronger athletes, i'll give you that, but i can't tell you better athletes. >> rose: the conditioning, everything is different. >> guys used to come to spring training to get in shape. these guys come to spring training in shape. and there's ber better methods. nutrition is a big part of it. back in the day nobody talked about nutrition, whether it was okay to smoke or how much whiskey you drank. >> rose: they have trainers, dietitians, somebody that works on their head. >> we do, too. >> rose: for the team. yes, on the road we control the food in the clubhouse as well as at home. mental coaches, pilates, whatever we think that's going to make our guys better we have. when you walk into our

clubhouse, it's self contained, you will want to live there. it has everything you want. >> rose: to be at the ballpark on a nice sunny afternoon and see someone, a young player with exquisite skills do things that, you know, that you know you can't do but you can imagine doing them because you peb up a bat at some point in your life. >> correct. >> rose: you've played that game. it's not like watching, you know, some sport like cricket you never played. it's like watching something you did as a kid and see people do it with such skill and passion and love. >> and that's why there is a lot of cry tick within the game because everybody's played it some point, somehow, somewhere, and a lot of it is based on what their dad said. everybody wants us to bunt as an example and catch the ball with two hands. i tell you one thing, bunts only when it's necessary and it's a

one-handed game, not a two-handed game. those were the things you were taught by your dad that you really try to influence your players in a different direction, but it's hypercritical based on the fact that everybody's pretty much played it at some point. >> rose: have you written a book, are you writing a book or will you write a book? >> i have not done that yet. i have been asked a lot is that i'm sure. >> quite frankly, i want to wait, if, in fact, people are interested because i'm still we aring the book, i think, many a sense, and i think it would take a lot of time. listen, in the wintertime -- >> rose: to be good it takes a lot of time. >> i don't want it to be superficial or to make a couple of bucks. i have no interest in that part of it. if i were to do this h, it would have to be a sincere effort to tell you exactly what i think and why i've done what i've dope and then you make up your mind. >> rose: thanks for coming. great to see you. >> i really appreciate you having me. i mean that sincerely. thank you very much.

>> rose: we'll do it again. thank you for joining us. see you next time. for more about this program and earlier episodes, visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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