good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with john mellencamp. the grammy winning singer-songwriter known for music that gifs voice, his music includes jack and diane and hurts so good. he is a humanitarian. he advertised the first farm aid concert in 1985 along with willy nelson. his latest project is called sad clowns & hillbillies. he joins us to discuss the project and so much more, i suspect. we're glad you can join us for a conversation with john mellencamp coming up in just a moment.

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> he really needs no introduction. his latest project is called sad clowns & hillbillies. it marks his 23rd full length album. here now, from john mellencamp.

♪ who are we trying to kid ♪ an easy target ♪ don't matter, never did ♪ crosses burning ♪ such a long time road ♪ still don't let go >> so i was waiting to see you the other night at the greek theater, whether or not you would do this song. and i'm watching you and the band, the entire concert. except on this one song, because continuing lyrics so well, you gave us this video back in january when you first did this. we premiered it on this program. so continuing lyrics and we just saw them on the screen. i wanted to watch the audience as you performed this song with an overwhelmingly white audience. i was so relieved when they got into the song, the applause was

rapturous, as you recall. those are some tough lyrics and i didn't know how the audience would swallow that. >> i have better news for you. we've done like 10 or 12 shows now and i've done that show every night. and every night you can hear a pin drop and every night, there are certain lines and certain audiences where i talk about black lives matter, who are we trying to kid and the place has erupted. so there are people paying attention. you know, not just to the songs but to the climate of america. but the best line in that whole song is, a country's broken heart. >> our country's broken heart. at the end, the audience, you can tell by the spirit, the applause, you can feel weight of it. i'm in the audience and you can

feel the audience grasp that line and grab ahold of it as you say it. >> i can feel it on stage. >> tell me why you wrote this song. >> well, you know, race has always been a vernacular in a lot of my records for years. it all started when i was a a k. being in a soul band, an inner racial band in 1965. 1966. and it was surprising to me. whoa! wait a minute. i was in the band and i sang and then this other kid sang. and they loved us. he was, i was like 14, he was 17. and they loved it. but when we walked off stage, they didn't love him so much. and it was confusing to me. wait a minute. you were just screaming and yelling and you know, loving this guy and now that we're off stage, on a break, you know,

when you're in a band like that, do you four sets a night. you have like 15 minutes. you have to go outside and -- i learned about it real early. it was just like, wow, there is really a lot of hate. for your skin being a little blacker than mine? >> yeah. >> i don't get it. i never did get it. >> where did the soul come from? the one thing your fans know, you can't go to a mellencamp concert without knowing this. you're a drummer. that beat drives everything on that stage. ♪ i'm digging them drums >> what, where did you get all that soul from? we're two indiana boys. where did you get all that soul from growing up in indiana? >> okay. my great grandmother is black. there you go. now you got me.

>> yeah, yeah, yeah. is that a true story? >> my grandfather came over from germany and he married a black girl. he taught me to speak english. >> you got it honestly. >> are you taking notes? >> that explains it, man. all this time i didn't know. now i know where you got it. since we're talking about it, what is about it that, you described it, what entity that heavy drum beat that is at the back beat of all your stuff? >> well, if you examine music, particularly musicians, they have the idea. i know what they're doing. i got it. and i learned this from being in a cover band. let's play this song. you name the song. any smoky robinson, oh, yeah, i

got that part. i know what he's doing. no, you don't know what he's doing. you think you can what he's doing. you have a vague notion of what he's doing but you don't really know what the guy on the record is doing. so let's learn what the guy on the record is really doing. and play it that way. so that way we are learning how this works. and what i discovered is that the old motown records, if you walk away from them and listen, what do you hear? you hear the vocal, the drums, and you their tambourine. and that's it. back in the 1980s and the '70s, turn everything down in the record except the vocals, the tambourine and the drums. so it turned out to be correct. to there day, you listen to motown, you hear the sounds.

that's what you hear. and you hear it, you know, somebody singing. >> i had not heard had her in person until i saw her the other night. she's amazing. >> she is really amazing. she really, she has a thing that she does. she got that from her mother. >> june carter cash. >> right. she got that from her mother. and she is part of carter family heritage. is that the right word? heritage. yeah. so she's grown one that. as long as she is in that box, there is nobody better. she's fantastic. and that box is big and wide. so there's a lot of things that gal can do. she has a wonderful spirit, a really nice girl. her and i have never even had a cross word.

and you know me, i can have a cross word in an elevator by myself. >> i'm glad we haven't had one all these years. let's keep it that way. you've been doing records for this many years, what is the challenge to doing stuff that is new and different? if you wanted to repeat that from before, what's the challenge of doing something new? >> here's the thing. about 1988, i decided that i need to start living an artist's life. not really a rock band life. because i had turned into a competitive guy that i didn't like. how come my record didn't come in higher? why aren't we selling more tickets? and those became the questions in my vernacular that i didn't like. i became a person i didn't like. so i decided at that point to

start living an artist's life. which means you create something every day. every day i'm making something. while you're on this big chair laughing and talking, i am making -- i am writing or i'm painting or i'll building something in indiana by myself. isolated. and what that does, it opens your brain up to the muse. i know that sounds crazy. i know it does. your brain becomes open to suggestion a lot more rapidly. oh, now i have to write which is what did i as a kid. i have to write. you're just starting from scratch. i'm never starting from scratch. i'll always in it. that would make a great

painting. that song, those words are great. i'm going to steal those words. if it's out there, it is mine. it's mine. if i see somebody do something in a movie, it's mine. >> you were talking about sydney poitier a moment ago. >> there's a the point where the drummer, poitier says, man, i'm digging them drums! and in the middle of my show, what did i do? >> you did it. >> i'm digging them drums! and i tried to say it as much like he said it. i'm digging them drums. the way he said it and the way he twisted his fist. if it's out there, it's mine. you put it out there. out into the atmosphere, it comes into my head sboo, into m filter. sometimes it is just like what i

saw and sometimes it is so different but i'm open. i'm open to the muse. so i'm always writing, always painting. and it is a great way to live. and the best thing is, i don't give a [ bleep ] if anybody likes it. when you're young, you say i don't care. guess what happens? when you stop caring. >> they like you more. >> yeah. yeah. >> i'm about to ask you, what the benefit was, i was about to ask you the benefit of being out of that place where you're worried about sales, album sales. i think you've answered that. >> i wrote a song called pop singer. >> i loved it. before you go further, do you know what's cool about yourself? what's cool about seeing you or james taylor, someone i love, your fans adore you, they show up in droves to see you but they know words to all your songs. when you get that pop singer,

you have a station. you can't really feel it. in the audience, everybody knows these words and they're lifting you to higher heights. they're singing right back. >> and this is the first tour that i have played pop singer since i wrote it in 1988. because at first, i was chastised for the song. mellencamp is biting the hand that feeds him. he has written all these pop songs. the critics tore me apart. but at this point it is still true. that's not what i want to do. in 1988, i quit. i didn't tell anybody. i took three years off. i painted and i tried to live a respectful midwestern life. and then i went back to work. i married elaine, went back to

work. then i had a heart attack and took three more years off. so at the top of my career, six years just went -- nobody can he stand six years. so that's why, when people sing these songs back to me, it is still a surprise. even though i didn't write songs for people to sing along with. the fact they do, you're right. it is uplifting. >> as many times as i've seen you, i felt something different the other night. maybe because i'll getting older. but it took me back to when i first met you as a student when i was there years ago. and just different restaurants here and there. here's john mellencamp. i had no idea i would have you on my show. i was experiencing gratitude for having known and you being in

your circle. the part that really moved me was looking at how your career has grown over the years. and for the first time, it kind of hit me. you have a deep, deep catalogue. you have a serious corpus. >> i have a lot of really crappy songs to choose from. but there are a couple good songs in there. i got to write 50 not so good ones to get a good one. like click, click, click, click, oh, there's a good one. so i think most song writers are that way. you have to be open. you have to, your brain has to be open to not try to direct the song writing or the painting. like easy targets. i was painting when i wrote that song. i was painting. i was working on a portrait or something and this voice says, write this down. no, no, don't bother me.

i don't want to mess with song writing. you'd better write this down. i walked over to a table and went, black lives matter -- i couldn't write it fast enough. and i sang it all at the same time. so realizing that the song was there, i mean that fast. i just picked up my phone. there is a memo thing on your phone now. i just sang it into the phone. put it down. took three, four, five minutes, went back to painting. found the song a couple days later and said wow, when did i write that? really. i had forgotten that i had even written the song. >> you know i'm hating you in this moment right now. >> get in line. get in line! >> that just seems, i'm being funny. obviously you're a vessel and you're open to receiving it. but it seems so unfair that

something so good can pour out of you in five minutes. >> and i would degree if you're elvis costello. which is what happened to him. he was a kid. give me a break! who writes almost blue? at like 30 years old. so for me, it took 40 years for this to happen. so don't be too mad at me about it. i worked at i for a long time. unknowingly that it would happen. i didn't know that would ever happen. when i was a kid, it was a struggle. because i was crafting, writing, does this work? no. i don't want the song to go this way. it's taking a wrong turn. it was terrible. that's why the songs were so terrible. >> get out of your own way, huh?

>> keep your head down and your mouth shut and do what the muse tells you to do. >> you talked earlier about making decisions and how it changed your flow and your music and your output. how did having your heart attack change you? impact you? >> well, anybody who has ever had a heart attack, particularly when you think you're bullet proof, which i thought i was. you go along and you're bullet proof. and then you're not. and that is a shock to anybody. people would say, oh, yeah, you had a little heart attack. little heart attack? you go have a little heart attack. see how you feel about it! there's no such thing as a little heart attack. they're all bad. nothing is good about any of them. this is where i have to take my hat off to elaine, my ex-wife. she became my heart specialist.

i mean, she buckled. she knew more about heart disease. we knew nothing about heart disease. i thought i was dead. you have a heart attack, you think you're dead. and she became a heart specialist and really nurtured and helped me through that time period. and for that, you know, regardless, 22 years of marriage, regardless, i am indebted to her in some fashion for this. for being there for me. >> the other night one of your sons was with you and you brought him on stage. these are people who have followed you for years and i could see it was really cool for them to see your son come on stage with you and sing at the end. >> he's never done that. i've asked him for years. come out and sing a song. i don't know any of the songs, dad. right. you've only been on tour your whole life. last night he was standing on the side of the stage.

wasn't planted. i just walked over and said, why don't you come out and sing? all do you know is go, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it. and he went, okay. so after the show, i said why did you do it? you've never done in it 23 years. and he goes, father's day. and i said okay, great. >> that was nice. >> the touring, you do this like every summer. >> no. i do not do this every summer. >> every other summer. >> no. >> how often? >> i haven't been on tour in 15 years. i don't play outside. this is first time i've played outside. i played -- >> the last time i saw you? >> about eight, nine years. i don't like playing outside. i don't like playing in front of drunk people. it's music. i try to keep it respectful.

i want the shows to be respectful. i the went to playing theaters long before i needed to. i probably need to now. but long before i needed to, i went into theaters. because i felt that it was a more respectable way to present music than to be in an arena or a stadium. being a cheerleader. or a monkey on a string. >> i get you don't want to play in front of drunk people. but why don't you play outside? >> that might be cool. but let me tell you something. outside, summer night, alcohol equals drunk people. >> i got it. >> there are drunk people there. >> you take your craft seriously. >> i do now. i used not to. when i was a kid, it was like, this last couple years and then

i have to get a real job. but who really thought at 65 i would still be doing this. really? >> what do you make of how this has turned out since you didn't think would it last this long? >> i don't think anybody thought would it last this long. i can't imagine any artist worth his salt saying i knew i would be doing this when i was an old man the. i don't believe it. when i signed my first record it was 1974. people made a couple albums and then they disappeared. there were a couple, three people that, different than most people. and you take a guy like dylan or, i hate to mention the name, but the rolling stones. and these were like the higher echelon bands. but guys like me, a couple

records. a little change in your pocket the get around. that's how i thought it would pan out. >> you were wrong. you were way wrong. >> i don't mind being wrong. i don't mind admitting when i'm wrong. i'm wrong a lot. >> why did you call it sad clowns & hillbillies? >> there is a song on the record called sad clowns which is a tongue and cheek song. and i was listening to a conversation in the studio between me and carlene and i thought, if you're not from the midwest or the south, you don't understand what's being said here. because i get around somebody from the south and i don't even

understand myself. whoa! so that's how. >> sad clowns & hillbillies is the new project from john mellencamp featuring carlene. i highly recommend it. my friend, good to see you. thank you for being here. thanks for watching and as always, keep the faith. ♪ all along the avenue ♪ behind the bars keep each other apart ♪ ♪ easy targets are countries, broken hearts ♪ ♪ easy targets are countries, broken hearts ♪ a country's broken heart ♪ -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com

>> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> hi. i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with two-time emmy winner regina king. we'll see you then. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you.

thank you.

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