good evening from los angeles. a path to social mobility. more and more students who enter college don't finish. tonight the conversation first about why this is happening and what can be done about it. then, singer clint holmes joins us fampbs and conversation about his latest project, it's called rendezvous, we're glad you joined us, all of that in just a moment.

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like group thank you. students who start college and increase their debts don't end up finishing, tonight we'll explore with our special panel why this is the case. pleased to welcome douglas haines, university of california ir vine, john king jr., former u.s. education secretary and current president of the education trust and michelle, president of the campaign for college opportunity and glad to have you all on this program. let me start with the obvious question which is why there are so many students starting and

not finishing and particularly, mr. king, students of color in that category. why is that? >> we've good couple things going on, one is economic challenges, so for many students, they are spending a very large share of their family's income on the cost of college, even with the aid of their receiving from the federal government and often from their state government. we nolo income students can be spending as much as three quarters of their family income, whereas affluence, it's a smaller portion. once you get over the financial issues, there are lots of issues around what it's like to be on a college campus for students who may be the first in their family to go to college. it may be unfamiliar. the first bad grade can lead them to feel defeated or they may find they don't have the academic preparation that they need. and so there's a lot that institutions can do to actually make college a more successful environment for students. >> why is that percentage of

income gap so wide for poor versus wealth kbri families? >> one of the factors is that we've seen states really systematically in higher education. so families are bearing a larger share of the cost and that is the biggest impact on folks from low income communities and we have all of the complicated american history around race and class that results in families of color typically having much less in terms of family wealth than certainly white upper middle income students. the challenge keeps growing. >> there's a 20% decline in state support for higher education since.

it begins with outreach early on visiting dloej actually see what it's like as a physical space. and then equipping them to navigate the application process and financial aid. we do that through our centers for educational to collect vise the capitol of the university, so more individuals who are first generation or low income cannot only apply and get admitted, but thrive while they're at uci. and that's the key thing, to thrive while they're there, provide the support that could be additional tutoring, but also, thinking beyond college in terms of ecosystem, so when they leave college, they're part of a network of people who are helping them build their careers. >> michelle, this seems so

unfair that you have these first generation college students who still have to bear these kinds of burdens, financial and otherwise, it would seem after all of the practice we've had at this, we'd be better off than we are now, and that first generation students wouldn't have to carry this sort of weight. >> i think that's what's disturbing that we all know that higher education is really the pathway out of poverty. and the value of going to college, especially amongst black and latino families across the country is incredibly high. that's the dream that we all have for our own children. as somebody very sage once said, do what rich people do, and rich people send their kids to college. and so, it is disturbing because that is the path to the american dream and we've got make sure that our states are investing, we also have to hold institutions accountable to do some of the things that you see every vine and other campuses are doing to ensure that welcoming environment. we've got make sure professors support students when they do get that first bad grade.

i remember when i was in college, i got a c and a note from the professor come see me, which i thought meant they were kicking me out of campus, and thankfully, it wasn't that conversation, it was a conversation about what kind of support you need, how can i help you with the readings, we need to do much more of that. >> at least you got a c, i'm going to tell you what i got. you can guess it was worse than a c when i got called in my second semester in school. i'm not nigh've in asking this question, mr. king, but tell me why it is that the cost session growing soup fast. what's driving the increase in education? >> it's a variety of factors. for some campuses, it's that their faculty have gotten older, and they have liability that's been absorbed over many decades for pensions and health care benefits. for other campuses, it's that they have invested in facilities and facilities upgrades that are costly. but at the end of the day, the biggest challenge is that the support for students from the federal and state level hasn't

kept pace. you're thinking about pell grants, the primary and federal security at a 40 year low in terms what have portion the costar higher education and coverage. and every president is that runs, you are for one, barack obama said this, trump said it in his own way, they always say in their own way, i want to be the education president. nobody's going to downgrade education while they're campaigning, how is it those numbers are going in the wrong direction? >> yeah, well unfortunately there's been a reluctance to make the necessary investment. now over the course of the barack obama administration, we added $1,000 to the pelle award. index fell to inflation, it was keeping pace with inflation, but that's going to this end year. big question for congress hopefully increase the investment, or will they follow the lead of current administration and retreat from investment. they've actually proposed very significant to higher education for students. >> why do you think our rhetoric

is so disconnected? it's so disconnected from our public policy? >> i think it's accountability. >> yeah. >> just to give you an illustration, california, the university of california basically competes with prisons. because in some sense that first generation latino, that first generation african american, that's going to college, needs more support. and, it's just a matter of time before institutions really have to face the extoe sensual decision, can we afford a world class education for students who are different? who are low income, students of

color, from low income families. >> how much of this is not about -- how about i put this, not about equality, but about equity, and i know the three of you know the distinction i'm drawing here. i don't know that we can ever get to a conversation about equity and giving them what they need. how do you get to the equity conversation? research first. >> i think -- >> research about that already though? >> the research that i'm thinking about is universities understanding how they actually teh students. >> uh-huh. how do they actually support students? because in the absence of that, you can have a commitment to equity, but you will have very inadequate delivery. and so now, there's a push that i've noticed certainly at uci, but elsewhere, in trying to learn more about how students

learn to equip our teaching assistance and faculty actually know how to manage new learners. >> we've got equity challenges at every level of the system. we've only got about 40% of four-year-olds in public preschool. access to early learning is where we start. in k 12, we know some students are getting much more than others. we know for example from the civil rights data collection survey that there are schools, high schools, where you can't take physics or chemistry or algebra two, what chance do you have to pursue a stem career if you can't get those classes in high school? then in higher ed, we have institutions with a mindset, you know, the kids are first generation, the students are low income students, they're working, it's not really our fault, we do the best we can. on the other hand, you have institutions like uc ir vine, georgia state that say no, no, we're responsible for not just getting students to college, but through college with a

meaningful degree. we're going to provide tutoring, reach out to students and make sure they have the support they need and institutional behavior is critical. >> i would just add that we need, you know, courageous leaders and the public to be courageous to talk about race and equity and in the ways that make us feel uncomfortable because folks don't want to talk about race, but the reality is, that we all stand to benefit. whether it's in california, texas, florida, illinois, if we are undereducating black and brown children, we are all going to pay the price for what that means. >> well said. thank you all for being here and thank you for your work and having you on this program. for more of this conversation, go to pbs.org/tavis to hear more what the brilliant minds have to say about how we fix this crisis. particularly for students of color trying to get a high quality education. up next on this program, singer clint holmes, stay with us.

>> so here now, clint holmes. ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [ applause ] >> thank you. >> my man, ted holmes still sounding good, good to have you

on, man. tell me about rendezvous. >> well, you know it's a little bit autobiographical that is cd is, and the title comes from this club that my dad used to take me to when i was a little kid. when i was about 12. and my dad was a jazz singer. and the actual name of the club is the colored musicians club. and it's still in buffalo and it's now a landmark in buffalo. but i called it the rendezvous because i couldn't rhyme that. so the idea is that's where music became really important to me. is when i saw what it did to my dad, his demeaner, he was at different mans than the man who was tired and angry and he'd walk into this club and light up. and i walked in with him and went oh, this is the world i want to live in. >> you didn't have a choice really? >> i didn't, i didn't. >> but you could not have had the talent, you can have wanted to do that and not had the chops to do that. thank you, as i say, i don't know how to do it is.

my mom was an opera singer. it was just there. my sister's a singer. >> ghaichb your mom and dad, obviously love the music and had eclectic tampa bay rays, your mom was in jazz, how did this end up being the lane that you would run in? >> i say this on stage. she gave me the technical lessons which have let me have a long career. but it was my dad's muse that i can i found joyful. >> yeah. >> and when i went out into the world and started performing, you know, a lot of would be a matter of where it was, if i was in vegas, but, you know, it always had kind of a little bit of a jazz edge to it because that's the music i fell in love with. my dads. >> why is vegas been so good for you? i mean you've been great to vegas, why has it been such a great platform, great place to stay. >> i grew up an entertainer. the younger entertains don't have places to play where they

learn many of them, don't have places to play where they learn the craft. you know, i played those seven shows a night things, five shows a night, requester first shows at 3:00 in the afternoon and there's nobody there. how do you entertain the bartender and the waitresses? all that stuff, i did that and so did a lot of people who came-up with i did, and the sami -- people like sami and harry, those people who did that, and that was my era. so i came up as an entertainer, that's the point. and in las vegas, you have such a cross section of people sitting out in the audience that you better be ready to entertain everybody. you know, because you don't know what music they like. >> yeah. >> and sometimes they come in because somebody gave them a two for one. and thing clint holmes is a country singer. i got find a way, you know. >> but you can you could do that if you wanted to. >> i do but i don't. i came up learning thousand entertain people in the setting that i was given. so that serves me well in vegas. >> when you say sami and harry, he is now 90.

>> yeah. >> sami davis, god rest his soul is gone. so you're not a spring chicken. >> no, but you look amazing. how old are you? >> you had to ask. >> i had to ask. >> because the audience won't believe this. i know, but the audience won't believe this. >> just turned 71. >> 71. >> yeah, i just turned 71. >> how do you do this? >> ouch, that hurt. it hurt. but i could still do it. >> how do you do all this stuff. you take care of yourself. zbloi take care of myself. genetics, my mom was 95 when he passed, and up to 90, she could hit a high c. so it's genetics, but i take care of myself. i love what -- man, i love what i do. and i look at tony bennett -- >> oh lord. tony said to me, gave me a cassette tape of his vocal exercises at one time, we played tennis in vegas and he said, i want you to learn to do this because i'm going to be singing when i'm 100 and i want you right beside me. and i took it home and put it in

the player and it was too hard. seriously, it was too hard to do. i look at tony, and he's 93, and he's singing in the same keys, and he's doing great. so, i would like to sing for as long as somebody wants to come hear me. >> there'll be lines far long time. >> thank you, brother. >> i could talk for a long time. i want to shut up and make room for the other song. the new project is called rendezvous. we are fortunate tonight he's going to do another song for us, alongside a wonderful talent. it's called "say something" again from the new project by our friend at clint holmes at the golden nugget. >> good to have you on my friend. >> that's the special, thank you for watching. as always, keep the faith, here comes clint holmes. ♪ ♪

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[ applause ] >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley @pbs.org. hi, join me next time for conversations with actor wally sean and director john peel. that's next time. we'll see you then.

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

violinist. good evening, from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley, tonight, a conversation with a violinist, working with wynton marsalis, and her deep commitment to music. a conversation with nicoletta benedetti coming up