. good evening, i am tavis smiley, tonight part two of my activist and author naomi klein. we are glad you can join us on night two with naomi klein in just a moment. ♪

and contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ despite the depressing note that naomi klein left us the last night. the world did not end over night. here we are back again tonight, thank god for jesus. her new book is called no, it is not enough releastisisting trum shock politics and winning the world we need, if you miss last night's conversations, go to our website, check out last night and now here we go with the

second part of our conversation, thank you for sticking around. >> my pleasure . >> we closed the conversation last night with you starting to detail the toxic to-do list as you see the trump administration has on tab. lets talk about the alternatives and the options. tell me more of the toxic to-do list. >> these are the policies have been used about but they have not try to put them forward but have tried and have had pull back. trump has talked about wanting to bring the feds to quail the carnage in chicago, quoting language for cracking down black crimes. he's appointed as his education secretary, somebody who does not believe in public education. how he has out source his

budgeting to the heritage, we have all these dangerous policies waiting in the wing. he talked openly about a blanket ban on muslim, there are many things that he would like to do that people around him would like to do. i am worry about how at crisis whether a security shock or an economic crisis could be used as the pretext to say, now, we have no choice, we have to push this through and i think some of the courage that we have seen from the courts maybe in question because trump has shown his hand and has said no, something happens blame the court and after there were terror attack in england, he tried to take advantage of that we need the muslims ban. he's shown to push this through. i hate to say this but i don't

think that it is too far fetch, too much of a stretch to imagine given his model. i don't think it is too much that we are going to end up blasting somebody at some point. he's done that quite frankly when he gets serious. i don't think it is going to happen again. we are going to get involved if he has his own and left his own bias. and given that wall street is still behavi behaving recklessly as they did. i am not sure if it is a for gone or a stretch to consider that, the economy might take a tumble as well. >> so if either of those happens and god help us and both of those happen simultaneously, how is trump going to use that and what will he do given the way he has exported crisis time and time again. what do you expect his behavior

will be and either or both of those scenarios. >> on the economic front, there is major crash, if there is a major crash, we'll see the bail out and the part that's supposed to prevent the public of getting a massive bail out, you are getting rid of that or trying to. i think we'll see a full scale attack of what's left for the public spear or the public housing or transit or education, you know if we think about what happened in new orleans after hurricane katrina, i think they'll try to take it national. one of the things to spur me to write this book when i realized and i started the shock doctrine ten years ago with new orleans and the meeting that took place while new orleans was still under water. two weeks out. this meeting is convene by the

republican study dprup agroup a come up with this list for hurricane katrina and one of it is replaced of the schools system and one of it is creating a tax-free enterprise zone which means getting rid of taxes as an incentives to rebuild. also, a who bunch of oil of recommendations and arctic national and wildlife refuge. if you think about it. new orleans, what happened during katrina was created with heavy weather linked to climate change and the public spear warning after warning, ignored and then fema cannot seem to find new orleans in five days. the so-called solution is get rid of public spear all together. that's the idea of the solution. when trump appointed mike pence as his vice president, i thought i know his name from some where.

i went back to my files and i looked at that meeting from the heritage foundation and the name at the bottom was mike pence, he was the chair of the republicans study group at that time. he was right at the heart of taking the advantage over this massive, massive catastrophe, what i fear is them taking katrina national. >> scaling it up. >> and remember of the free for all contractors, politically connected. what i would fear is the whole margot lar-- mar-a-lago threat. in terms of the terrorist attack, i was in paris a couple of years ago of attacks in restaurants and people remember this, 200 people lost their lives. the french government declared a

state of emergency andnd they banned political protest of more than five people. you could not have the kind of protests that we have seen of courageous protests. what i would worry about and a lot of people would say well, we managed to resist the worst and we can think of the courageous action after they tried to introduce the travel ban and people flying to airports those are the threat that's declared as a national threat security. the only way you can resist is this is defiant. if it is only the immigrant community that are defending their rights or the people who are being rounded up and defending their rights, they're going to get crushed. it has to be everybody standing up for each other. that's the only thing that resisted these types of tactics and i have seen it before. it has happened and i have seen countries understood what is happening and what they are losing in that moment and flooded the streets and the government has had to back you have. >> so, that's a perfect segway

for me to ask, what your assessment is to date. i want to go further just a second, what is your assessment to date of the resistance of the trump administration. and of course, any number of pockets to assess women and black lives matter but broadly speaking with specificity thus far? >> it is been courageous resistan resistan resistance, not just from trump but from the forces he has embolden. >> people are fighting and coming out and doing so. the women's march on day one was inspiring event that i was really, really proud to be able to be apart of and the travel

ban in the streets and the courts and we have seen amazing response. we are starting to hear this feeling of burn out, i mean and i think that's part of that comes from the fact that you cannot build a movement that'll last, that's only in the no and of that space o resistance. one o f the things that i think is inspiring is that we are starting the see the yes and what people want instead and this predates trump and the move of black lives coming in forward for the vision of black lives and sweeping vision of the world of the women want and instead of what we have now and touching everything from tax codes and tuition fee. that's what i think we need to see more of and it is hard because when you are facing the level of attack that front line community is facing is hard to

save some space to dream of the world we want instead. i also think there is uncertainty of the political level, what's the plan, is it bernie running again, is it inside or outside of the party? one of the messages i have is we cannot afford to wait. social movement are so strong right now and climate justice movement and the fight for 15, there are amazing building blocks for a true multi racial, multi faith and people's platform to people to come together. i think it is going to come together first at the city and state level and then eventually at the national level so that movement is not in a posture waiting for politician to tell them what the plan is and telling the politicians, this is the plan and if you want our support, you need follow it. >> what would be to your mind

and what would be that crisis moment -- >> his name is donald trump. [ laughter ] >> yeah, he's been there foawhi already. >> it will take all of us coming together. i am not naive of the fact that if donald trump merely being there is all that took for all of us to come together. we would have done that already. the question is legitimate on some level that it is going to take something to bring this all together. what is going to be that? >> we have so many crisis. >> yeah. >> and like the idea that we have to wait for thing to get better, worse to wake us up. they are bad and they are crisis, police violence against black people in the streets and a state of emergency and so many people are calling it that.

everyday we hear moves that's terrified enough that jolts us away. donald trump represents a crisis that if we don't respond this way, we'll be etched. it will play out in rising sea and melting glazerieierglaziers. we are out of time on so many different fronts. i feel that people know it but what we lack mattis infrastructure to come together because we are at the end of a 40 year campaign that has been waging war on the public's fear so the space and the glu that used to help movement come together and dream together is missing. so that's what we need to rebuild in a real hurry. >> if i say to you and i hope you can disabuse me of this notion, if i said to you that your whole these rest on the

believes or the notion that we feel that we are all in this together. >> uh-huh. >> if we are not in this together then your theory falls flat on this. when over 100 people are shot in chicago and the white folks in chicago don't see that as their problem, we are not in this together. >> yeah. >> when the dreamers are in the streets and it is just brown dreamers but black folks on the streets with them, we are not in this together. when the women are marching and they're overwhelmingly white women and other, other are apart of thachlt when there is a climate justice march and it is just one group, i can do this all day. >> yeah, yeah. >> your theory only works if we truly believe that we are all in this together and i am just not so sure as yet that while i do

that you either wake up because you see the light or you feel the heat. i believe that. you still have to have some sense of being together and i am not sure if i turn that corner yet. >> uh-huh. >> help me if you can. [ laughter ] >> well, that's a great way of putting the challenge that we face. >> uh-huh . >> i think that's exactly what has prevented the coming together and the building of a truly progressive majority. the majority is there and i feel like the message of the sander's campaign in this country and the corbin campaign in the uk is that power is within reach, this is an idea that i did not grow up with. i grow up with a bold idea where you can never win power.

now, with ere fiene are finding there is an appetite for that. bernie got 13 million votes and he carried 22 states. what is standing in our way is what you just described. >> it is our in amendmebility t together to connect the dots between all of our issues and that's the task ahead. it takes bold leadership and it takes people showing up for each other. i think we have seen some of that, i think the response to the muslims travel ban was an example of that. if not, out sourcing it, that's your issue and i am going to show up for my issue. a lot of people are calling this the silo organizing. this is part of what it means to organize this 40 years attack on the institutions that used to provide glue that we are in our respective issues based silo and a lot of encouragement for people to stay in those silos and where the funding comes from

for movement and the way technology encourage people to focus on one issue instead of that over arching agenda that'll bring us together. i am not denying what you say is true. the fact that if we don't do it and we don't understand how our faiths are intertwined are how it is intertwined with the help of the natural world, if we don't wake up to the reality of interconnections and interdependence in this moment and don't have an evolutionary lead, we are out of luck. we are up against it when it comes to the climate clock. >> i want to deconstruct the title of your book because i think it is informative as well. i love the book, the title "no, it is not enough," leads me to ask why is it so much easier to say no to x, y, or z than it is

to say yes. i ask that question because it takes me back to the conversation last night about the democrats and the conundrum that they found themselves now. it is so hard to say no but so much harder to get to yes. >> so when it come to the democrats, i think it is simpler response. i think there are actual financial interest standing in the way of getting antonio the agenda in terms of who pays for campaign and straight up conflict of interests, that's part of it. more broadly it is that we have been leaving a war on the imagination, ton political imagination for the past 40

years. >> by who? >> of the idea of as bad as the policy we are living are. here i am thinking of prioritization and deregulation and low taxes paid for by slashes where you see massive investment of incarceration and repressi repression. as bad as all of that is, there is no alternatives, i think that that project, that 40 year project, the sturdiest part of it is not policies. donald trump ran against that. that whole project is in crisis and it has been in crisis since 2008 financial collapse when we saw it is possible to break the rules to bail out the banks. the sturdiest part has been the war on the imagination, the idea that there is nothing else but this. that's unique to our time because if we think about

revolutionaries and other moments in history, of course, they carry the dreams of the world they were fighting for and embedded in their movement, right? obviously true of the civil rights movement and of the anti-movement and anti-charter. sometimes people say i am too busy fighting and i don't have time to dream. that's not true. a history of movement that's fought under a much harsher condition that we are fighting right now. i believe that starts to wear off. >> the last question, of the e title of the book, was the answer for me once i got in the take but for those who have had a chance to read it yet. let me ask this. in your subtitle, you used the phrase "winning the world we need." a few questions again but i will

give you the space you need to answer. >> one, these days what do we mean by win sng. >> i am not sure the definition of winning for the u.s. is the same definition that i would give 40 years ago. what is winning number one? when you say the world we need, can we agree on the world that we need and finally what do you say to those persons or trump spor supporters who feel like they are not apart of that "we" to begin with. >> we had a big debate of the "we" in the title. >> i can imagine that. [ laughter ] >> just saying "we" is political. who is the we? >> yeah. absolutely. i went for it anyway. i risked the "we." part of it is coming from the climate and just movement and feeling confident that the economic and social model that

we have right now is at war with life on earth and there has to be a "we." i cannot troll if everybody, certainly there is going to be trump supporters that's never going to feel included in the we. i did write the book for and i wrote the book for the movement. it is a movement book and we live in a time where people identify of being part of the resistance is growing. so if there is something that we can thank trump for, it is that he's been a kind of a wake up call where more people understand that he's a symptom of a system failure and not the pail your itse failure itself. and if fortune 500 company can line up behind this man and he can be phrased of corporate press for launching the

chocolate cake at mar-a-lago. that's the "we" that i am speaking to. people understanding something deeply wrong. i am trying to build a broader "we." i am trying to do a little bit of the work and no one person can do it. i am so lucky to have so many people who helped me with the book and who are doing this same work from this angle and trying to weave the "we," weave a broader we. but bringing it to climate again and h-- we have to be able to sy that if we have an economic system that is bruinging us everyday closer to ecological collapse, we need a different world and we cannot be afraid to say "we." we cannot play well, my crisis is bigger than yours.

we'll fix climate first and we'll fight poverty and racism. no, we have to find a way to solve multiple problems at once. we need punctuated transformation on ultimately fronts. we need bring down our mission in a way that builds us a much, much fairer economy and begins to heal wounds that dates back to our country's founding and it is possible to do that and the community that's been on the front line of the most abusive practices including ecological practices to own control and renewable projects. these are some of the solutions that i highlighted in the book that i don't claim any ownership from the movement themselves. >> i am going to ask you a question in 30 seconds. can we win? >> we have to win. we come close enough to tasting victory and here i am talking about radical campaigns, if we now know that we can win, we

have to win. we have a profound moral responsibility to win. >> well, i am with her. naomi, that is. the book is called "no, it is not enough," resisting trump's shock politics and winning the world that we need. i put myself apart of that "we," i hope you enjoy the book. naomi klein, thanks for having you on. >> thank you for having us. >> thank you for watching, as always, keep the faith. ♪ for more information on today's show, visit tavissmile tavissmiley @pbs.org. >> hi, i am tavis smiley join us next time of georgia lake call, that's next time, we'll see you then. ♪

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪

♪ ♪ -today, on "america's test kitchen"... bridget makes a portuguese beef stew for julia, lisa reviews her most- and least-favorite gadgets, jack challenges julia to a tasting of pesto, and becky shows bridget the secrets to the best quinoa and vegetable stew, here, on "america's test kitchen." "america's test kitchen" is brought to you by the following: fisher & paykel. since 1934, fisher & paykel has been designing