angeles, i'm tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with jerrod carmichael and david alan grier of the "carmichael show." the sitcom has started its third season with frank discussions of rape and patriotism, but it still has plenty of laughs to go along with it. we're glad you could join us, jerrod carmichael and david alan grier in just a moment. ♪

♪ and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. ♪ thank you. ♪ [ laughter ] i'm laughin' already, we ain't even started yet. please welcome jerrod carmichael and david alan grier back to this program. they are stars of the show "the carmichael show", starring molly gibbs, i love her. >> i know it's hard honey, and i know it's a lot. but i'm serious about ending my life. and i need your blessin'. >> ah-oh, snickerdoodles ready.

[ laughter ] >> man, if i had known grandmother was going to kill herself, i would have worn a different outfit. [ laughter ] >> you got to get these thoughts out of her head. >> i don't know, dad. i mean, i don't want grandmother to go through with this either, but think about it like this. grandma wants to go out on top. wouldn't you have rather seen michael jordan retire after hitting that three pointer against the jazz in '98 instead of him stew way past his time in the wizards jersey? if only grandma plays for the wizards. >> there's so much in that clip, i don't know where to start. it's good to see you both. >> great to see you. >> my mom only cares about, my mother is like, when are you

going back on tavis? >> word to your mom. let me start with this, i guess. so rape? assisted suicide? >> yeah. >> when we gettin' to the n-word? >> it's coming. >> the 21st. it's right around the corner. >> people are going to -- >> there's another response to that question, but i didn't go there. >> yeah. >> it's comin'. >> you want to go there? >> negro, please. come on, man. >> it was. >> but it's very timely. a lot of these episodes are timing out, unfortunately, some fortunately, just with culture in a real way this season, yeah. >> without asking you to give anything away. >> mm-hm. >> give me a sense of how you're framing around that episode. is it about who can use the word? is it about the word itself? >> it's more so about rules. >> yeah, yeah. >> you grow up. and it's not just being black. but i think this applies to

everyone you grow up with, this set of rules, this unwritten set of rules that you abide by and these guidelines, and it's kind of understood, it's in the black community, certain things we didn't do, certain things we didn't allow. certain rules, and it's kind of examining that and turning it on its head and, you know, saying the n-word, i have to stop myself from saying nigger. >> i hate saying the n-word. >> it feels so cheap. we're adults. but that's a rule itself. so it's a really rich conversation. >> is there anything for bill maher tomorrow in this episode? all the white people on the planet -- just don't use it! >> one of my white friends said, is it ever appropriate? i said you can use it if you're prepared for what comes afterward. i grew up in detroit. you will get a knuckle in your

eye. that's just, i'm 60 years old, but that is the appropriate response. >> yeah. >> knuckle in your eye. >> oh! it actually hurts thinking about it. a knuckle in the -- >> oh, yeah. that would cure a lot. >> that, you're on to something. that's serious business. >> mm-hm. >> a response to a white person using a word like that. how do you guys take such serious issues and find the funny in it? >> i mean, for me, the carmichaels really represent a closer reality when i go home, when i hang out with my family, this is the kind of stuff we talk about. not by the letter, but we talk about everything. and it was in the context of a family, you know, everybody in the room's got to say their piece. some people didn't read the article. they're going to say their piece. some people read the article. they're going to say their piece. >> some person got the news from

the worst website. >> oh, yes. oh, yes. by way of facebook. >> oh, yeah. oh, yeah. >> so, you know, that's just the way a family works. and they all have equal strengths. everybody said, you know, let your cousin say, he's a guest. that kind of thing. so i think the show really captures that organic family dynamic, you know. so. >> is it getting harder to write or easier or maybe not, you tell me to situate the show in the moment in which we live? i ask that, because it seems like snl has certainly found its legs in this trump era, but not just donald trump, but with all that's going on in the world. is it easier or more challenging to situate a comedy like this? >> for us, the key is nuance. you know, having a conversation that has both sides, genuinely heard as opposed to, i think it's, now we're in a time in culture when it's easy to get

swept up in talking points, almost a hash tag culture about how everyone else feels about something and allowing your views to feed into that. but the difficult thing is nuance in an argument. so that's what we try to stay true to when making the show. it's just like, even if it's unpopular, even if people don't like it, you don't worry about that. because we all say unlikable things. we all have unlikable views. we all have unpopular opinions, unpopular thoughts that whether you share it or not, as a human being, it's a full spectrum. so just showing those, showing those moments is really important. and i just try and do that. >> let me ask two politically incorrect questions if i may. >> please. get really -- >> tell us how you feel, tavis. >> i figure two black comedians, if i can't ask you -- >> their sounis sounds like it'

to be really fun or the end. so, about the jew. don't ask about the jew. >> white folks don't say the n-word, and i don't mess with the jews. >> that's your rule. >> leave me alone. they're my best friends. [ laughter ] >> yeah, i don't mess with the jews. >> tavis will be on the air for the rest -- >> no, no, my first question is, how is the network treating you 40 years after richard pryor's show on nbc? i didn't realize it had been 40 years. just researching for our conversation. >> yeah. i didn't realize. >> 40 years on the same network. >> yeah. there are battles. it's a string of battles. because one, you're dealing with a corporation. you never want to forget that, as much as you want to be a bleeding heart artist and say, this is truth, this is what should be seen, you are working within the confines of

corporation. anything that you see on television, even the internet, to a certain degree, you're working with, you know, these rules of people that are very cautious and very cautious about perspective that's so strong. the fear is that it will turn viewers away. right? they don't, people don't want to say real things because they're afraid, if you disagree, you won't watch it, but, you know, i think it's, again, staying true to yourself in perspective as you know. that's what we hold onto when anytime the network's a little cautious. we say, but this is honest, this is real. and people connect with that. and people love when you don't lie to them. >> to answer your question, how is the network treating us, i, for one, wish we did a lot more shows. i wish that we were not taken off the air for a year. and i think we deserve that. we've earned that, so i, that's how i feel. >> can i be more --

>> yeah, yeah. >> why won't nbc get behind your show the way abc has gotten behind ""black-ish""? >> it's racism, tavis! >> what did you say? >> "black-ish." [ talking simultaneously ] >> answering very honestly with you, i think nbc's figuring out what their comedy brand is, right? we're kind of a casualty of figuring out exactly what the tone is, who the audience is, all of these things. our show, i truly believe, is one of the more provocative shows on television. more than it's a family show, it really is about the argument itself that allows us to do episodes like the one that aired last week about consent and it allows us to do episodes where your grandmother wants to end her own life, and you have these really heavy episodes, but it

also puts up alex tn extra wall caution. it's a constant battle. anytime, you know, if something proves profitable, people try to protect that at all costs, but what you end up doing is making a watered-down version of what you're trying to create. what you do, we said niggers six time on network television. >> did they say how many? >> we asked for, we asked for one. it was one. >> yeah. >> daniella, to write two. >> we wrote more, we wrote more. but we wrote four, and then we taped six. >> how long was the meeting? the meeting was eight hours. every white person, well, the nigger -- >> when you say nigger. every person. every white person was like, are you talking about the nigger show? that's what the show's about,

you know, so i'd like to speak my mind. you know. [ laughter ] >> they want dispensation. can i say it now? no. no. [ laughter ] >> i think we topped that episode on this episode. >> well, jerrod, all those will be bleeped when this actually airs. >> i think this is more educational than "sesame street." >> well, wait, for one thing, i never, ever, as a black man, you know, when they say it's different if it's the "er." in a social situation, are you breaking down the "er", the "a." >> give me the phonetics on that. >> in the moment, the word is the word. >> how do you guys get through, how do you get shows done, with all of this going on, all of this comedy? >> we have, we have our moments

where we're just all like, losing it. we have a lot of moments where we are just, not only that, but what's fun about us is we get so deep in a conversation, even outside of, outside of whatever we're taping, that we'll be in the middle of a conversation and like they will yell "action." and we're still talking about, we're just locked in and yelling with each other and then loretta's like, we don't talk about this later. and it's fun. it really is like a real, so -- >> you and loretta have, i mean, the cast, the whole cast is great, but you and loretta have a chemistry. >> i've known her forever. i feel like i'm married. it's like a real marriage. no sex whatsoever. we don't even live in the same house! >> sounds like every marriage i know. >> every day, i go home. no, but i have known loretta since like 1983.

we've worked together so many times over the years. so it's just kind of a -- >> looked at it from "dream girls" to an episode of "a different world." >> but what i was just trying to say, there's certain things you can't fake. there's just a knowledge that we have of each other. of all those years, and there's a trust that's there that didn't have to be learned or, or qualified. it's just walking in a room. that's what we have. >> they push each other's buttons very well. like they know how to genuinely, not only, like get on each other's nerves, but then use it for the camera. they're like, two of the most brilliant actors. it's amazing. >> when you guys cast this, jerrod, did you know of this long-standing friendship and believe that thats would aid and abet? >> i didn't know it was that

long. i didn't know "dream girls" is where you met. i didn't know any of this. we were just happy to have both. and then the chemistry working the way it does, it's like this added bonus. it's amazing. >> when you're coming up with concepts, jerrod, to turn into shows, this is a strange question, how do you, how do you know? what allows you, what makes you assume that a particular theme or topic will work for an episode? and i raise that, because as comedians, you may have a toipi you can get two or three jokes out of. >> it is whether or not you can have the real argument about it. can i talk about this for 22 minutes. >> we did a cosby episode we had to shorten it. you can talk about alzheimer's, all these things, these family situations for a long amount of

time. so just making sure you have the perspective, not only that, but can i argue against myself? or can we argue in the writers room. we have this brilliant staff, is there an opposite perspective that's as strong, you know, that can be heard. >> i think, when i've written things and you put a premise out there, a good premise grows. it blossoms. like a tree. so that means discussion goes on and on and on and gets bigger and bigger and more complex. a bad idea is going to rot. i mean, you'll put it on the table. a few jokes, and this is going to die. one of the clues to me, for a great idea is if it sparks that kind of conversation. there are a lot of times when we did the episode with my mom, i didn't, as an actor, know if we, the audience was go with us until the night we actually filmed it. because that's when we have a live audience. we do everything else amongst ourselves. >> how scary is that, not

knowing until? >> it's exciting. it's titillating. it's like comedy, you can sit in your bedroom and write all this quote, unquote brilliant material, but when you get on stage and you get that feedback, and then you know. >> it's so fun, because, you know, they expect, you know, a lot, like typical sitcom and then she's like, hey, i have alzheimer's and everybody's going oh, okay. and i want to kill myself, whoa. >> oh, no! >> it's always a wonderland. >> don't do it, mama! >> that's my favorite, when you hear a black woman go, mm! >> what is, that's a, that's a question, i think, which is, how do i want to phrase it? what is the joy on the one hand or the risk on the other hand

either on stage or on the small screen, screen in pushing black people's buttons? >> oh. >> pushing their buttons. >> if i may. >> please. >> you may. >> black people at our best, are the most gifted people in the world, i genuinely believe that. i think the most incredible artists. what we have to remember to do is hold onto not only truth but also expand consciousness with our work. because it's really easy to, because black people have very strong reactions to your material. and if it's something that is kind of outside of it, you can be rebelled against. i had a nightmare about black twitter the other night. i'm not even on twitter. i'm not even on twitter. i was like, oh, uh. i'm going to start using black twitter to, as a boogeyman for my nephew. [ laughter ]

and it's indicative of the very strong response. but i think it's so important to challenge. you have to have malcolm and you have to have martin. you can still want what's best and have different views. you know, and i think that's really important. i think an argument in general, nuance kind of falls out, you know, and especially, i think with black art and black content. it's very easy to just give the empowering speech of how, and i know we're strong, i know we're capable. i know we're brilliant. i know we're geniuses. how can we expand that, how can we challenge everything that we know. how can we push us forward and move into the future and not just hold on to, you know, everything from the past, some things are meant, you have to let go of in order to grow. >> have you ever tried anything, david on stage or elsewhere, or black folks said, "that ain't funny, man. that ain't funny."

>> in maen masse, talking about breaking up with a woman who has kids. and you say, i'm no longer going to be your make-believe dad anymore, and every woman was like, boo! it's not really me, but you have to get out there. it's the element. but you're told vociferously, don't go down that road. >> i saw your stand-up, a few months ago. i thought it was amazing. and i've seen that thing a half-dozen things, and i've been dying to ask this question. i didn't know what to expect, of course, when i saw this standup. but there's something about this last that you did that was different, i mean, in terms of the way you framed it, your style. >> no. >> what did you do that was different? >> the goal was vulnerability. >> okay. >> like the goal was to make it as vulnerable.

the spark of it was, i was listening to this marvin gaye album called "vulnerable." and the material on it was so open and honest. with stand-up comedy, it's so bold. i wanted to say these thoughts that were unpopular, that people would disagree with, and i worked with a friend of mine, bo burnham, who is just a very, very brilliant human being, amazing director and amazing, he's a comedian himself and performer. i wouldn't even call him a comedian, just a performer. he's amazing. and we just tried to shoot it, you know, in such a real way. just looking at, you know, old videos and like etta james, these things that just captured a very vulnerable performance, and he and kris tor. we just wanted to be honest.

we just wanted to do a stand-up special that was completely different than anything that you would normally see. we cut out anything that wasn't necessary, kept it really honest and about the words and about the perspective. >> it worked, it worked. >> thank you. i appreciate you saying that. >> david and jerrod, to look at comedians in that setting, that audience was not overwhelmingly black. >> no, you know it's funny. >> you tell me. >> i was telling somebody, because they were like, man, you had a mostly-white audience, and i requested it as such. it may have been a little bit over 50% black. >> okay. >> since rosa parks, i think we've just gone back to sitting in the back. if you look at the balcony. if you look at the balcony, it was just like a bunch of black people. >> i was looking. >> where they at? >> i had family up there. i had brothers up in the back. i ain't sittin' close to the

stage. >> i don't know whether, david, if there's a particular challenge to telling those kind of jokes in front of white folk versus being at the apollo. >> i started at the apollo. >> i'll put it like this, man. i told my first joke when i first performed as a standup at the apollo, and it hit so hard, i thought the sandman was behind me. and i was afraid to look up stage, and i thought, i'm totally going to lose them. but the apollo was, ooh, it was deep. >> he didn't get you. >> no. it hit good. in a good way. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> and i've performed there many times but nothing like the apollo. it's big, but when you're on stage, it gets small. it's like a tunnel. that's how it feels. yeah, it's an incredible place. >> all right, jerrod, you have

the last word here. what do we have to look forward to this season on the show? tomorrow night. >> yeah, molly gibbs, thanks to her for the grandmother with alzheimer's, we have things about, self-appearance. we have things about, we have a threesome episode. >> what, threesome? >> we breezed through that. >> loretta and i don't get involved. [ laughter ] >> because -- >> but wait, let me tell a quick story. marla's there, and she's like david, what? i don't want to die. too late now. [ talking simultaneously ] you can come back in a dream. >> mama, i'm so happy to have you back. you are? then why you killin' me off? >> she was lobbying. maybe we can face time with your spirit. >> hologram. >> it's my favorite season on

television. and i know it's hard for me to be objective here, but i mean it. >> i respect your judgment, if you say that, it works for me. "the carmichael show", starring jerrod carmichael and david alan grier >> hey, mom. i'm on tavis, mom. thank you for watching. as always, keep the faith. ♪ for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for paula pound stone and cheech marin. we'll see you then. ♪

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ ♪

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