. good evening, i'm tavis smil smiley, a story about the nation's founding father in the text never caught the washington's relentless pursuit of the run away slave ona judge and an actress joins us to discuss her starring role in the drama series "the hand mads tail." glad you joined us. all of that coming up. ♪ ♪

and by contributions to your pbs station by viewers like you, thank you. era armstrong dunbar is an author. the latest book called "never caught" the pursuit of the run away slave owner ona jude, the slave that escaped from the home of america's first, first family in detail and provides a look at george washington's relationship to slavery. i'm delighted she did it and honored to have her. thank you, thank you, thank you.

>> thank you. >> this book gives us a way of seeing george washington. tell me more. >> it does. with my goal when i wrote this book to tell a story not through typical founding fathers and ona jude's life gives us the ability to do that. she moves through the nation and gives us kind of portal into south. >> i was whit perring to you that i was -- it was fascinating for me to see the extent to which george washington told himself with the almanac or note, i thought about all the historians over the years who have poured over these same notes and didn't find what you found. so it's a great testament to you. tell me about ona.

>> i'm glad that george washington left so many notes. we have to read between the lines. in someways we did that but ona gave us her voice. she left two interviews at the end of her life so i could use her interviews and the words of others to put together her life and she was representative of one of the people born at mount vernon, born sometime in 1773 or '74. we don't know exactly when because washington didn't record the birth date of the enslaved.

from martha, washington, her father was a white man and washington purchased the agreement. he was ataylor. ona's mother was a seamstress and at some point, ona was born. by the age of ten. moves up the ranks and becomes martha washington's top slave. so the moment they decide to bring slaves to new york, they choose seven people, seven enslaved men and women, ona was

one of them. that begins the trip to the north. >> it's just getting good now. >> this is a good one. >> she arrives in new york in 1989 and the first time she's out of the slaves's house but it's a place where slavery still exists but so does black freedom and their stay in new york is brief. the nation's capital moves to philadelphia in 1790 and she spen spends the next six years in philadelphia which was the epicenter of freedom at that moment in time. no other place had as many free black people in the city and she watched this. here she is as an enslaved person.

she sees this. she witnesses it. at this moment where she's coming of age, so no matter what the washingtons try to do and they are very thoughtful and careful about keeping their enslaved people enslaved people and in philadelphia that becomes tricky. george and martha washington have to figure out how to work around the law to keep their slaves in the city. >> i read in your text what they did and you're being charitable here. i read what they did to get around the law because the law in that state as i recall. >> the laws were different in pennsylvania than new york.

the law stated if you were a non-resident, you had to emancipate slaves within six months so george and martha washington and this is written in correspondence between george washington his secretary to lealeer as well as martha washington came up with a rotation plan. a slave rotation plan where they would rotate their slaves from pennsylvania to virginia every six months in order to avoid the l law. he's breaking the spirit of the law in ordinary toer to maintai property. >> this as president. >> yes. >> not funny but it is. >> yeah. >> what then -- i don't want to give the whole story away. what then occasions, opportunity for ona to get free from them because we all heard you say a moment ago how she is seeing all this freedom in philadelphia and

i, for one, believe that courage is contagious. i mean, people get a taste of that. they get a sense of that. they know what their lives ought to represent. so it's just -- as far as i read your book and i'm going through it, it's just a matter of time. i know how the story ends. it's just a matter of time because she's seen what life can be. who occasions or opportunity for her to break free of the washingtons? >> you know, she's around this freedom for years but there is a crucial moment in the spring of 1796 that changes ona's life and she finds out two things happening. and a third term in office and all enslaved at this point up to nine people enslaved in philadelphia. they know vernon and this doesn't sit well with ona jude.

the trigger is the moment she finds out there will be a change in ownership and that one of ma that washington's grand children, george washington and she rushed in, she worried about her and she made the decision that she would give ona away as a wedding gift and when ona catches wind of this, the trigger is pulled. she says in her interview later on in her life that she would never be her slave. she knew eliza and she knew this is a woman her age who had a reputation for being volcanic. and the years in the north and knowing that her ownership would change made ona really make the decision to free herself. >> all right.

so now i'm going to give the story away and i only got a minute to go. you get the book and read how she got away but i do want to advance quickly to this question, how as the book suggest were they caught without telling the story how she got away and who helped her, how did she never get caught because she lived 50 years past martha and george washington. how did she never get caught? >> she spends nearly half a century as a fugitive. you know, her courage. it was her bravery but also it was the help and tradition of what we know people who put themselves in jeopardy to help run aways and that was ona and the free black community. it was white men and women that kept her safe. i think what is so incredible about this story is that for

really the rest of george washington's life, he pursued her and so no matter how long he lived or how long martha washington lived, ona judge knew that she was someone else's property and remain that for the entirety of her life and met r her. >> sounds like a movie to me. we should call it the fugitive. i think of the movie "hidden figures." so many stories like these that we just don't know. because of historians like you that take the time to dig it up and unearth it. thank you for writing the book. >> an honor. >> called "never caught, the

washington's unrelentless pursuit of their slave oney judge." stay with us. pleased to welcome golden globe actress elizabeth moss back to the program. she stars in "the hand made's tale." before we start our conversation, we're seeing from episode three. >> i remember your scripture, blessed are the weak. >> blessed are those who suffer a righteous essence for there is a kingdom.

i remember. >> what do you think? >> i like it. i would watch it. [ laughter ] >> you ever look at your stuff and say, do another take? [ laughter ] you would watch this? >> i would watch it. >> i would watch it. it is really good stuff. not just because you're here, it is really good stuff. >> thank you. >> i was whispering when you sat down a few days ago, i participated with tom hanks and a bunch of people to a tribute of a prize-winning hall ning ho survivor. we were reading passages and one says we opened our eyes too late. we opened our eyes too late and margaret has a similar line.

so glad you kept in the series. >> by the time we looked up from our phones, it was too late. >> we looked up from our phones too late. >> we didn't wake up. >> what do you make of that? >> it's one of the -- it's one of my personal favorite parts of the book and statements of the book and repeated a couple times in the show in different ways and it's exactly, i mean, it kind of sums up how they got to this. margaret talks about how an institution, a regime can't actually be put in place unless it's already existing. you know what i mean? how it could happen slowly. there is another line. nothing changes instantaneously in a -- something about a bathtub, you will be boiled to death before you knew it. the concept of it's slow. it's slow. it's not all at once.

>> you worked on shows that had good writing. >> yes, yes. [ laughter ] >> hi, matthew. >> pretty good. >> what's it been like? >> to have such an incredible book to draw on and refer to it, not just an explanation but beautiful pros so it just makes it so much more incredible. a lot of the reason for that is i don't talk a lot sometimes. so a lot of it and so much of it is eternal. >> what's the challenge? >> the thing i love about acting. i love it. in a way it's enjoyable. i love the idea that there is something going on in the outside and something going on in the inside and people are playing two different things and

a lot more than one thing going on. for me to actually have a very specific challenge of playing something on the out 150side fo other people to see and having something go on in the inside but the added element of letting the audience in, not the people in the room, not the other actors or chakt aracters, for m it's like the perfect bermuda triangle. >> watching you the first couple episodes and kind of bask in the story that's being told here, my mind went back the other day watching this to the women's march in washington and for me at least but most of us, it's hard not to be moved, not just be impressed but a cheap motion to be impressed. hard not to be moved by what that march represented. what was said at the podium, what the women were there for. hard not to be moved.

which leads me to ask, what's it like when you're filming a scene with all of these women? i mean, just watching you-all especially when you're standing in formation. that's like a lot of -- all that women power. what is that like? >> it is moving. it really is. it does -- i had more, i think, experiences in making this a feeling like i was taking it a lot more personally than other things i've done. working with certain actors in some scenes and actually finding myself starting to cry when i wasn't supposed to be crying and having to check my emotion. there is a scene in episode two where a lot of women come together for a specific reason and it's a really sort of moment of unity in a tragic circumstance, and we all felt like you could have heard a pin drop. we all sort of had this feeling of here we are and we're here for the same reason and you can't help but take it

personally. we had that happen so many times. it's a beautiful thing to look around and see these women supporting each other but you can't help but feel like wow, here we are having to do this. here we are. >> i try to respond to as much viewer mail as i can all these years later on this show. i got a letter from a woman the other day, very kind, mr. smiley, i love your show. i watch it all the time. i'm a big fan, but it would be nice to watch your show where you, you know, stop taking the cheap shots at donald trump. and i wanted to respond and i did, what do you mean by cheap shots? the more we got into the conversation, she was saying -- what she was trying to explain wasn't that i was taking cheap shots at donald trump, it was that there are so many stories being told in this -- that kind of parallel this universe that we now find ourselves. i said that's not a cheap shot. that's either argumentative but not me taking a cheap shot.

it is what it is. there is a reason margaret atwood's book jumped back last year. didn't happen for no reason. i'm sure you've asked about this before, what do you make between the parallel of the story and what it is about and the treatment of women. what do you make of this? >> i feel like it is impossible to not draw the parallel and i think we should draw the parallel. that's one of the wonderful things about art and literature it can bring things you feel passionate about. for sometimes my response to this kind of thing is there was sort of this kind of a right wing kind of people saying at one point we were this left wing propaganda show. it is about what it is. it was written 30 years ago. it's about ignorance and stupidity and evil and taking away women's rights and human's

rights. if you happen to draw the correlation -- [ laughter ] >> that's on you. we didn't write it. >> and if margaret atwood is that prosthetic 30 years ago, i got two questions. >> decades ago. i welcome that conversation. we should be having. we should be. >> i think does matter. it doesn't matter. i've been following this on social media. this debate, this story, how did those two things get to be different? >> yeah. >> i mean, what's your take on this? i've seen you've been pulled

into this. >> i'm actually really glad you brought it up. i've been wanting to talk about it. i welcome that conversation. we are talking about it. i would say 1,000% it is a feminine story. of course it is. it's a feminist show. there is a four-letter word that's very important, which is also. it is a feminist show. it is a feminist work. it's also a humanist work. i believe women's rights are human rights. >> absolutely. >> that's the logical way to look at it. for me it is about women's rights and human rights. there are women not penalized in the show and punished and so i feel like for me that's a simple answer and it's a great conversation to have and i always welcome talking about these issues. i really do. anyone that knows me knows i'm such a card carrying feminist, it's sometimes probably too much. if anything, i have to be told

to -- >> tone it down a little. >> tone it down. for me, i think, you know, i take it probably way too personally, you know. it wonderful. it great to be able to go to work and go yeah, i believe in what i'm doing. >> worse problems to be had. >> i guess you're right. yeah. >> many worse problems to have. the tale is a wonderful series on hulu. they have done a great job. you're great in it. >> thank you. >> and the cast. good to see you. >> so good to see you. enjoy doing your show. thank you. >> that's our show for tonight. thanks for watching. keep the faith. ♪ ♪ >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley on pbs.org. >> i'm tavis smiley, join me

next time for a conversation with the parents of trayvon martin. that's next time, see you then. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪

-today on america's test kitchen bridget and julia make pan-seared flank steak with mustard-chive butter. adam reveals his favorite carbon-steel skillets to julia and becky shows bridget an easy recipe for walkaway ratatouille. it's all coming up right here on "america's test kitchen." -"america's test kitchen" is brought to you by the following -- fisher & paykel. since 1934, fisher & paykel has been designing