angeles. a conversation with suiten burton telling her powerful story. and then actress felicity huffman joins us to discuss her role in american prime.

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. susan burton k's is an advocate powerful story is detailed in a new memoir called "becoming ms. burton" from prison to recovery. it is my honor to welcome susan burton back to this program. can i start by saying having met you a few years ago and had you on the program before, i am so honored and pleased and

delighted to see that people are getting the work that you are been doing for some time. sometimes you labor in the vineyard and not that it matters because you are not doing it for the praise but it is nice when people finally catch up to what you have been doing and how well you have been doing it. how are you handling all of this michelle alexander, john legend, nicholas christophe love? >> it's wonderful. i don't do the work for recognition. i do it because it needs to be done. and somebody needs to do it so i picked up the banner to help women escape the criminal justice system. myself. i travelled in and out of prison for almost two decades and there was no help for me until october 4 of 1997.

i found help in santa monica. october 4 etched in my brain. and i found that treatment in santa monica was much different than in south l.a. for, you know, a controlled substance, for addiction. and i found in santa monica and i brought it back to south l.a. >> treatment is different how? >> people in santa monica when i was there in 1997, they weren't going to prison for being in possession of a controlled substance. they were given a court card or being diverted to a treatment program. i can remember a young man in a 12-step meeting complaining about the color green.

he had an accident under the influence of alcohol and drugs and his sentence was to paint the jail. my sentence was to live in the jail, much different. so when i found support services, the way in which we were treated with dignity and respect, i was able to begin my healing process, pick up my bed and walk. and i came back to south l.a. to spread that. since then we've helped over 1,000 women transition back into the community and reunited over 300 children with their moms. and, you know, i'm happy about that. >> tell me how you got into the spot you were in, why you stayed in there and why you couldn't get out. i was fascinated and blown away, it was arresting to read this passage in your book where there was one prison official who said

to you we are going to hold your spot because we know you're coming back. we are going to hold a spot because we know you are coming back. they are expecting you to be resitivists. >> the whole system is set up for you to return. tavis, my son, he was 5. his name was k.k. he was killed. he was killed by a police officer. he ran him over. my son was playing in the street. it was an accident, but my world just crumbled. i began to drink and that escalated to drug use and i was incarcerated for the drug use. long before my son was killed, though, i had endured so many experiences that were just really hard and traumatic, all sorts of abuse. my son's death just kind of

knocked me over. i was incarcerated for that drug use. no one ever said you're not a bad person, you're a sick person. you have trauma. i remember going in front of the judge and laying it all out for him and asking for help. that judge sent me to prison for two years. and over and over and over again. when i reached santa monica that was just a lucky break. had i not gotten that break i don't know where i would be or what could have happened. you know, since then i have committed and dedicated my life to helping women end the pain, suffering, trauma, abuse of incarceration. yes, i left the prison and i said to the guard i'm going to

get a job and i'm going to get it together. and he replied to me, only job you're going to get is in prison. there are no jobs out there for you. i will keep your bed because you'll be back. >> how did that make you feel? >> it hurt. it hurt to hear him say that, but it hurt even more to understand the challenge that laid in front of me trying to make a successful reentry with no support, no resources, no i.d., no place to live. you know, it hurt. but i'm light years away from that day. and i'm not back and a lot of other women aren't back, also, because of the new way of life. >> you do such great work.

because you are human, because we are all human we are not human and divine. has it been difficult staying on the straight and narrow for you? >> so i have a cause. you know, i have a commitment to that cause. it's not difficult staying on the straight and narrow. you know, i have a passion and a connection that centers so deep inside of me that i wake up and do this work with so much joy and so much satisfaction. so it's not some of my colleagues tell me girl, take a break. girl, slow down. i love what i do. i take a break occasionally. there is so much joy in seeing a person come in to realizing their worth, their value, their

potential and begin to give that out just as i seeded it into the world. so i love it. i love it. in the story the prologue i talk about ingrid and ingrid turned to me one day and said ms. burton i'm getting my life back. she got all her four children back. she is in her house. she is working in a job and it's beyond a minimum wage job. she is earning an income as a single mom. and if we don't support that coming to be we lose america's tragedy in the people which just needs some support, just needs a hand up, not a handout, but a hand up. and that's what i do. i love it. >> i was teasing susan when she sat down because on the front of the book you have michelle

alexander's name who blurred this. on the back of the book is a wonderful piece by brian stevenson. were you stu were -- there are no two people in this country i respect more. they both love you and have written about you. michelle alexander referred to you as the 21st century harriet tutman. i saw the same phrase in the "new york times" that you are the 21st century harriet tutman. that is a lot of love. i raise it not to embarrass you but ask you whether or not your work feels like you are on a journey to rescue people and save lives? >> i know that what i do rescues people, allows them to have an

analysis of what is happening in their lives and breaks them free of the criminal justice system. you know when we talk about slavery, we have to go back to the 13th amendment that says you can be a slave if you are incarcerated. so does it feel like harriet tutman? i think so. i didn't imagine that when i started out, i just thought if i can help a handful of women come home it would be okay. but then i started looking at the larger picture and the systemic oppression that we can pay $60,000 a year to cage somebody up and then spit them back out into the community with nothing. i'm going to lead them to freedom. i have a safety net and a place to bring them to help them get

back on their feet and break free of incarceration and slavery. so michelle alexander, brian stevenson and the cherry on top is john legend. [ laughter ] >> i got 18 comebacks. i know there are a few that would love for john legend to be the cherry on top. i will leave that alone. [ laughter ] john is a good brother. and you are a good sister. and i love you. >> and you're a good man. welcome to the incarceration party. >> we are all here. i suspect that i have a comment on this but i suspect it won't be long before it becomes a movie. get the book now before the

movie comes out about life and legacy ongoing and well lived. the book is called "becoming ms. burton from prison to recovery to leading the fight for incarcerated women." you are doing great work. i know the more people that hear about the great work you are doing the more they will support it. >> it takes money to do this. >> they will be supporting you more and more in the coming months and years. god bless you. >> thank you. i am always pleased to welcome our friend felicity huffman back to the program. stars in abc drama "american crime." before we start our conversation hear a scene from the season finale of "american crime." >> i have to figure out how to keep things going. >> you need money. >> i need to go home. >> and all that talk about

trying to find yourself, trying to breathe and wanting to take a stand for the workers, that just goes away? what's it going to be like when you're back? >> it's going to be like it was. >> no it won't. >> i will be there for you. i will support you. >> you are going to be a house wife, the same that set you off before and the minute you feel disrespected you leave again. >> tense. very tense. >> yeah. it's intense to watch the show. it's not light entertainment but it is entertaining. >> this is a silly question but not the first or last i will ever ask i suspect. it is beautiful and brilliant but it is intense to watch.

does it feel that way when you guys are on set? what is the set like? >> it's an intense set. it's -- everyone is very dead ka deadicated. some are new and some have had years behind them. it's very quiet. it's very on purpose. there is not a lot of let's hang out and play. everyone is focussed. >> how does that impact your work on screen when you are going to undertake a task as a thes p thespian that is purposeful? >> i think your job is to find what it is in that person's character story that you can endorse. in something like this, this episode, this season deals with slavery and forced labor, modern

day slavery so much of that is about not having agency in the world, not having a voice, having no traction and in a very minor way the character that i play that is also true of her, too. she has been a good house wife for 24, 25 years. there is no me in the us of the marriage. and she doesn't have a bank account in her name. she never signed for a car loan. she has no way to make money. i think she discovers that she is also helpless and cannot help others because of her own -- she's ineffectual. >> john ridley was here bragging about you and how much he loves you and how great an actress you are. i said you would be here so he was excited. >> was he wearing a gray sweatshirt? >> pretty much.

the same john ridley. he doesn't dress up except for the academy award. the conversation was brilliant. we have gotten so much response because john has this way in conversation of almost being poetic. he almost talks like he writes. you can see why his writing is so good because he talks that way in conversation. at the end of the conversation i am running down to my dressing room to write down like eight one liners that he used. >> finally after three years when we do press and have round tables or up on stage, when john talks i bring up my cell phone and i just hit record because i really like to go back because he is just a genius. he is just really smart and very thoughtful and he writes -- he talks as if he already wrote down the answer.

>> exactly. >> which leads me to ask, after doing these very intense subjects that you guys tackled every season, what has been your take away from that? what are you learning about the world, about life, about yourself? if you are doing work that is that real and surreal year after year it must be changing you in some sort of way. impacting you in some sort of way. >> that's a great question. i think it is impacting me in a lot of ways. the first is the take away from all three years is the interconnectivity and the cascade effect of our late actions. we are everything we do effects everything else. i didn't realize that picking up

a tomato and what has gone into that tomato and what it takes and the other thing that i have taken away from it is i admire -- i really admire television to back thoughtful, deep, tough true stories that they want to take it. i think that takes courage. and finally something that i think john ridley does brilliantly is the story behind the story. there is a crime or there is something explosive and we read about it in headlines and go so that happened. it didn't just happen. now the story begins how the cascade effect of how it effects all of those lives. and that i didn't know about. even this season when i look at the camps that, you know, that we shot at or that we re-created i went is this what it is like?

it's the brilliance of story telling that you get to walk in someone else's shoes and go i didn't know that was the experience. the shots of them walking across the desert. >> what has been your feeling and take away of the way this story is told versus other series you have done. this is not episodic. the story is told over the course of the season. have you come to like the way this particular show is shot? >> john keeps a lot of stuff from us. season one and two there was an inciting incident and explodes from there and we follow the threads of it all. this season i kept going how are all of these stories interconnected? what can i have in common with lilly taylor and tim or richard.

maybe there is no sort of coming together. there is no body of the tentacles. it wasn't because he redacts a lot of scripts and doesn't let you know that it is going that it wasn't until the last episode when i went that's what it means. and as an actor it is kind of fantastic because you're not playing the end of the scene at the beginning or the end of the season at the beginning. so this was more about it's as opposed to this it was more this. john ridley would not have explained it like that. he would have this brilliant -- >> it works. we get it. >> you're laughing at me. >> we all got the same point. doesn't much matter. you communicate effectively. that's all that matters. i would say that i'm not an actor, you are.

that could be a bit worrisome to me to not know where this thing is going. >> it totally is worrisome. thank god i trust john ridley so implicitly. because the last episode so much is redacted that i go ongoing what do i know? what happened last? they would have to explain it to me because i didn't get to read the scenes. it does make you to be on your toes t. is scary in the sense that i go i hope this is correct and i hope i don't have to change courses next episode. >> i just saw felicity on the cover of a gorgeous magazine. it's a beautiful cover. were you happy with that? >> was i happy with that? >> i think you look pretty hot. >> i love that cover. are you kidding? if i can look like that anybody can look like that. it was amazing. it was really fun.

>> you enjoy those photo shoots? >> they are terrifying. all you do is sort of go i'm not worthy. i'm not worthy and then the photographer is sitting there going fantastic, lovely. inside you are going i'm so sorry you have to sot me. >> in the end you are in love with it. >> in the end you are like that is totally what i look like. not. >> you wake up that way. >> i woke up like this. >> how is your wonderful husband doing? >> he is fantastic. he has a little break. he directed three movies in four years. it just about killed him. finally the family was like could you take a break because you are super grumpy. and now he has a break and he is relaxing and goes back to season eight of shameland. it is getting better and better. he is pretty swell. he is doing a honey do list. >> we all know what that is.

not that you shouldn't be this fortunate, but you guys have had a good run. >> my gosh. >> and both of you. >> i know. >> you must feel like blessed, fortunate, you tell me. the two of you, you two just stay busy. >> thank you god. >> and on great shows. >> i feel very blessed. i feel very grateful. i literally walk through my day going as good as it gets. it doesn't get any better than this. i am totally in love with him and i love our girls who are 15 and 16. i'm actually loving teenage years. i don't know how but i am. >> you should give your website out because we are going to get phone calls from parents like she has a 15 and 16 year old kid and she is loving this? >> i am.

>> they are going to want some advice. >> i have a website. it started because i needed help parenting. >> if you want to know how she is doing and she can answer questions for you. anybody parenting teens it's like loving it has some advice to offer. >> thank you so much. >> that's our show tonight. thanks for watching and as always keep the faith. for more information on today's show visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. join me next time have conversation with academy award winner holly hunter about her big film "the big sick." that's next time. we'll see you then.

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

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