good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. to night, a conversation with john mel encamp. he is known for creating music that gives voice to the heart and experience. he includes "jack and diane" and hurts so good." he also is a humanitarian. he organized the first farm aid concert in 1985 along with willie nelson and neil young. his latest project is called sad clowns and hillbillies. he joins us to discuss the project and so much more, i suspect. we're glad you joined us, a conversation with john mellencamp coming up in just a moment.

this guy needs to introduction. his project is called sad clowns and hillbillies. it marks his 23rd album over the course of a remarkable career. here are some of the videos for "easy target" from john

mellencamp. ♪ so black lives matter who are we trying to kill ♪ ♪ it's an easy target don't matter ♪ ♪ crosses burning such a long time ago ♪ ♪ we still don't let it go >> so i was waiting to seat other night at the greek theater in l.a. whether or not you were goinging to do this song. and i'm watching you and the band the entire concert except on this one song because i know the lyrics so well. you gave thus video back in january when you first did this. we premiered this video on this program. i know the lyrics. i want to watch the audience when you performed this song. a overwhelmingly white audience to see how they responded. i was so relieved when they got into this song at the end, the

applause for this was amazing as you recall in that audience. those are tough lyrics. dinlt know how the audience was going to swallow that. >> well, i got better news for you. we've done 10, 12 shows now and i've done that song every night. and every night you can hear a pin drop. and every night there is certain lines and certain audiences where i talk about black lives matter, who we trying to kid and the place erupted. so there are people paying attention. you know, not just the song, to the climate of america. but the best line in that whole song is a country with a broken heart. >> our country's broken heart. yeah. and at the end, audience, you can tell by the spirit, the applause, you can feel the weight of that in the audience. i'm sitting in the audience watching this. you can feel the audience just

grasp that line and grab ahold it to. >> and i can feel it on stage. >> can you? >> yeah. >> tell me why you wrote this song. >> well, you know, race has always been a vernacular in a lot of my records for years. and it all started when i was a kid being in a soul band in interracial band in 1965. 1966. it was just surprising to mechlt it's like whoa, wait a minute. you just -- i was in a band. i sang. then this other kid sang. and they loved us. i was like 14. he was 17. and they loved it. but whether we walked off stage, they didn't love him so much. it was confusing to mechlt yome. you were screaming and yelling and loving this guy. now that we're off stage on a break because you know when

you're in a band like that, do you four sets a night. you have like 15 minutes. you had to go outside and i learned about it real early. it was just like wow. a lot of hate for your skin being a little blacker than mine. >> yeah. i don't get it. i never did get it. >> where did the soul come from in your music? the one thing that your fans know and you can't go to a mellencamp concert feeling this. your drummer, man that, beat drives everything on that stage. >> i'm digging them drums. i'm digging them drums. >> what wr did you get all that soul from? we're two indiana boys. where did you get all that soul from growing up in indiana? >> okay. all right. my great grandmother is black. there you go! now you got it!

>> yeah, yeah. >> no. >> is that a true story. >> yeah. my grand father came over from germany. and he married a black gal. she taught him how to speak english. >> so you got it honestly. >> yes. >> all this time i didn't know. now i know where you got it. since we're talking about it, what is it about that -- you describe it. what is about it that heavy drum beat that is at the back beat of all of your stuff? >> well, if you examine music, people, particularly musicians, they have the idea oh, i know what they're doing. i got it. you know? can you -- and i learned this from being in a cover band. let's play this song. you name the song. you know, any smokey robinson

song. i got that part. i know what he's doing. no. you don't know what he's doing. you think you know what he's doing. you have a notion of what he's doing. but you don't really know what the guy on the record is doing. so let's learn what the guy on the record is really doing and play it that way. so that way we are learning how this works. and what i discovered is that the old motown records, if you walk away from the motown records and just kind of listen, what do you hear? you hear the vocal. you hear the drums. and you hear tamborine and that's it. turn everything down except the vocals, tamborine and the drums. it turned out to be correct. i mean, to this day, you just dn't know what -- you hear the -- you know?

that's what you hear. >> it works. >>ly not heard her in person until i saw her the other night. she's pretty amazing. >> she's really amazing. she's really amazing. she really, you know, she has a thing that she got that from her mother. as long as she's in that box, there is nobody better. that box is big and wide. there's a lot of things that gal can do. and she has a really wonderful spirit. and really nice girl. and her and i have never even had a cross word. and, you know me, i can have a

cross word in an elevator by myself. let's keep it that way. >> when you've been doing records for this many years, what's the challenge to doing stuff that's new and different? if you want to repeat the stuff you've done before, that's pretty easy to do. what is the challenge to doing stuff that is new and different 25 albums in? >> well, here's -- here's the thing. back in 1988, i decided that i needed to start living an artist's life and not really a rock band life. because i had turned into a competitive guy that i didn't like. how come my record didn't come in higher? why aren't we selling more tickets? and those became the questions in my vernacular that i didn't like. i became a person i didn't like.

i decided to start living an artist's life which means you create something every day. every day. i'm making something. while you're lounging around here on this big soft chair, laughing and talking, i am -- i'm making and writing or painting or i'm building something in indiana by myself isolated and what that does, it opens your brain up. i your brain becomes open to suggestions a lot more rapidly than it's like oh, i got to write which is what i did as a kid. oh, i got to write. you just -- it's like starting from scratch. i'm never starting from scratch. i'm always in it. i'm always in it. there is always like oh, that will make a great painting. that will make that song would

be -- those words are great. i'm going to steal those words. because you know if it's out there, it's mine. >> yeah. it's mine. if i see somebody do something in a movie, it's mine. >> you were talking about sidney poitier a moment ago. tell that story. >> there's a part where the drummer is going -- and in "raising in the sun," sidney poitier goes, man, i'm digin' them drums! and in the middle of my show what did i do? i'm digging them drums! and i try to say it as much like him as possible. i'm digin' them drums! the way he said it. and the way he twifsted his fis f it's out there, it's mine. hey, man. you put it out there. it goes out to -- out into the atmosphere. comes into my head, in my filter and then i filter it out. sometimes it's exactly like what i saw and sometime it's so

different. but i'm open. i am open to the muse. so i'm always writing. i'm always painting. and it's a great way to live, man. you know, and the best thing is, i don't give a [ beep ] if anybody likes it. when you're young, you hope they like me. now you say i don't care now. guess what happens? when you stop caring, they like you more. >> yeah. yeah. >> i was about to ask what the benefit was. i think you just answered. what is the benefit of getting out of that space where you are worried about ticket sales and worried about album sales and worried about -- i think you answered that now. >> yeah. it was -- and in -- i wrote a song called "pop singer." >> i love it. you played it. before you go, you know what is cool about your stuff? what is cooling about seeing you or jam taylor is your fans adore you. they show up in droves to see you. but they note words to all of your songs. when you get that pop singer, i mean it was just -- you were

there. you were on the stage. kunlt really feel this. but in the audience, i'm looking around. everybody, thousands of folks know the words. and they're lifting you to higher heights it seems to me. they're singing right back to you. >> and this is the first tour that i have played pop singer since i wrote it in 1988. because at first, you know, i was chastised for the song. mellencamp is biting the hand that feeds him. he has written all the pop songs. the critics tore me apart. but at this point, it's like no, it's still true. this is not what i want to do. so in 1988, i quit. i didn't tell anybody i quit. i took three years off. painted and i tried to live a respectful midwestern life. >> yeah. >> and then i went back to work. i married elaine. i went to work and had a heart

attack and took three more years off. so at the top of my career, six years went just like this, gone. nobody can stand six years. so that's why last night when people sing these songs back to me, it's still kind of a surprise. even though i didn't write songs for people to sining along with. the fact they do it is -- you're right. it's uplifting. >> yeah. you know, as many times as i've seen you, i felt something different the other night. maybe because i'm getting older. but it was -- it took me back to when i first met you in wilmington as a student there years ago. and just run into you on the square and different restaurants here and there. here's john mellencamp. and i had no idea that all these years later we would be friends and have you as a guest on my show. you i was sitting in the audience a sense of gratitude having known you and being able to be in your circle.

but the part that really moved me was looking at how your career has grown over the years. and for the first time, it just kind of hit me. you have a deep, deep catalog. you have a serious catalog. >> i have a lot of really crappy songs to choose from. >> yeah. >> but there are a couple good songs in there. >> yeah. >> i managed -- you know, i have to write 50 not so good ones to get one good one. you know, it's like getting your picture taken. click, click, click, click, click. oh, there's got one. i think most song writers are that way. but you have to be open, man. you have to be open. your brain h to be open to not try to direct the songwriting or the painting. you know? like easy targets. i was painting when i wrote that song. i was painting. i was work onging on a portrait a voice says, you want to write this down?

i don't want to mess with songwriting. you better write this down. i walked over to a table and went black lives matter -- i couldn't write it fast enough. and i sang it all at the same time. so realizing that the song was there, i mean, that fast i just picked up my phone. there is a memo thing on your phone now. i just sang the song into the phone. pushed it off. put it down. took three, four, five minutes. i went back to painting. found the song a couple days later and went, wow. when did i write that? really. i had forgotten that i had even written the song. >> you know i hate you, right? >> what? >> i'm hating new this moment right now. >> get in line! ghet line. >> that just seems -- i mean, funnier. obviously you're a vessel and open to receiving it. it just seems so unfair that something that good can just pour out of you in five minutes.

>> and i would agree if you're elvis costello which is what happens to him. he was a kid and that must have been happening. he wrote "almost blue." give me a break. who writes "almost blue" at like 30 years old. >> yeah. >> so anyway, it must have happened to him right away. for me, it took 40 years for this to happen. so don't be too mad at me about it. i worked a it for a long time. unknowingly that it would happen. i didn't know that that would ever happen. because i can tell you when i was a kid, it was a struggle. because i was crafting. i was writing. does this work? no, i don't want a song to go this way. the song took a wrong turn. no, i can't go -- and it was like, terrible, awful. has why the songs were so terrible. get out of your own way. >> keep your mouth shut and head down and just do what the muse

tells you to do. >> yeah. you talked earlier about making decisions to live an artist life and how that changed your outlook and your flow and music and output. how did that heart attack change you, impact you? >> well, anybody that's ever had a heart attack, particularly when you think you're bullet proof, which i thought i was, because what happens is you are no longer bullet proof and then, you know, that is a shock to anybody. people would say oh, yeah, but you had a little heart attack. little heart attack? you go have a little heart attack? see how you feel about it. there is no such thing as a little heart attack. they're all bad. >> yeah. >> nothing is good about any of them. >> yeah. >> anyway, so, you know, for years -- and this is i where have to take my hat off to elaine, my ex-wife. she became a heart specialist.

i mean she buckled down, she knew more about heart disease, because we knew nothing about heart disease. i thought i was dead. you have a heart attack, you're dead. and she became a heart specialist. and really nurtured and helped me through that time period. and for that, you know, regardless 22 years of marriage, regardless, i am indebted to her in some fashion for that. for being there for me. >> the other night one of your sons was with you. and you brought him on stage at the end. again, threes people who have been following you for years. i could sense it was really cool for the audience to see your son come on stage with you and sing a bit at the end. >> well, he's never done that. and i've asked him for years. come out and sing a song. i don't know anyst songs, dad. yeah, right. you've been or tour your whole life. anyway, and then last he was on the side of the stage. i saw him.

it want planned. it wasn't liked i talked to him. i said come out and sing. all you have to do is go yeah, yeah, yeah. that's it. i mean there's nothing to it. i said why do you it? you've never done that in 23 years? and he goes, father's day. i said okay. great. >> that was nice. >> yeah. father's day. >> yeah. the touring, you do this like every summer. >> no. i do not do this every summer. >> every other summer. >> number. >> how often? >> i haven't been on tour in the sumner 15 years. >> it's not been that long. >> i don't play outside. this is the first time i played outside. i played with dylan outside. >> the last time i saw you, as a matter of fact. >> yeah, about eight, nine years ago. >> right. >> and before that, i hadn't played outside. i don't like playing outside. i don't like playing outside. i don't like playing in front of drunk people. you know? it's music. it's like i try to keep it

respectful. i want the shows to be respectful. i went to playing theaters long before i needed to. i probably need to now. but long bring needed to i went into theater because i felt that it was a more respectable way to present music than to be in an arena or a stadium being a cheerleader or a monkey on a string. that's what i felt like. >> i get not playing in front of drunk people. why not playing outside? it's really cool seeing you play under the stars. >> that might be good. >> yeah. >> but let me tell you something, outside, summer night, alcohol equals drunk people. >> got you. >> there are drunk people there. >> right. >> you take your craft seriously. >> i do now. >> yeah. >> i used not to. you know, when i was a kid, it was like yeah, you know, this will last a couple years and then i have to get a real job.

>> yeah. >> but, who would know that 65 i'd still be doing this. >> since you went there, what do you make about how this turned out since you didn't think it was going to last this long. >> i don't think anybody thought it would last this long. i can't imagine any artist with this going i knew i would be doing this when i was an old man. i don't believe it. because, you know, when i signed my first record, it was 1974. and, you know, people made a couple albums. and then they disappeared. you know, there were a couple, you know, a couple three people that breathed, you know, a different eejther than most peoe and take a guy like dylan or, you know, i even hate to mention the name but the rolling stones and these were like the higher echelon bands. but, you know, guys like me, a couple records, you know, a

couple records with a little change in your pocket and that's how i thought it would span out for me. >> yeah. you were wrong. you were way wrong. >> can i tell what you i don't mind being wrong. and i don't mind admitting when i am wrong. i'm wrong a lot. >> this is a good project. why did you call it sad clowns and hillbillies? >> there is a song on the record called sad clowns. which is really a tongue and cheek song. and it was just -- i was listening to a conversation in the studio between me and carlene and i thought if you're not from the midwest or the south, you don't understand what is being said here. i get around somebody from the south and all of a sudden, i don't even understand myself. i'm like, whoa.

that's how it came out. >> there you have it. sad clowns and hillbillies from john mellencamp feature carlene carter. wonderful projects. i highly recommend it. good to see you. >> thank you. >> thanks for being here. that's hour show tonight. as always, keep the faith. ♪ ♪ easy targets along the avenue living in sucker town ♪ ♪ behind the bars keeping each other apart ♪ ♪ easy targets a country's broken heart ♪ ♪ a country's broken heart

♪ - today on america's test kitchen, dan uncovers the secrets to the perfect roast rack of lamb, jack challenges chris to a tasting of dijon mustard, julia cooks the ultimate roasted brined turkey, and bridget prepares root vegetable gratin. america's test kitchen is brought to you by dcs. dcs: manufacturers of professionally styled indoor and outdoor kitchen equipment.