good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. earlier today, the trump administration formally announced it will end the deferred action for childhood arrivals. the program known as daca. tonight we'll speak with john nichols about the decision and his new text, which examines who is actually running the government under president trump. then former fema director, michael brown will join us to assess the damage done by hurricane harvey, the government's response, and the lessons he learned from the failure of katrina. all of that coming up in just a moment. ♪

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. > >> john nichols joins us to discuss today's announcement to end daca, the nation's cover story and his new book, "horseman of the trumpopalypse field guide in america".

>> when you're trying to combine b biblical principle and politics -- >> no laughing matter here. how surreal was it, i even saw that president obama, who hasn't said much since he left the white house, went on his facebook page today to sound off on this move. >> he promised that he would. >> yeah. he kept his word. so president obama sounded off today on this announcement by the white house -- by mr. trump. he's rescinding the daca provisions. what do you make of this? >> i think it's what jeff sessions and a few of these people wanted to do long ago. long before trump even became a presidential candidate. and they attached themselves to trump early on, because they saw him as a vehicle to do this. it is tragic. it is irresponsible. jeff sessions in his press conference was dishonest. he suggested that these remarkable young people are taking jobs from american workers when, in fact,

immigration is a net boon to our economy. it's good for us. and he said a lot of other things that were incredibly irresponsible and wrong-headed. but i'm not surprised. because after jeff sessions' nefarious tenure as a u.s. attorney in alabama, his actions with regards to civil rights and voting rights, when he was turned down for a federal judgeship, he made himself. he came back into politics, ultimately became a u.s. senator. and sort of changed his game just a little to be in this militant anti immigration, anti immigrant rights player. so when he was up there today, i think -- i don't want to get in his head. i don't try to do that. but i would suggest to you that he was realizing a arc that he got on a long time ago. and we should not lose sight of that. he will not let go of this. he will be very hard core on it.

there will continue to be a struggle over this issue. and what's encouraging is that i'm hearing republicans in congress, people who unlike jeff sessions are looking a little bit to the future, who are saying that they -- there may be some resistance there. and i certainly hope so. because, boy, this is so divisive. >> what's ironic to me about this, john, i'm sure it's not lost on you, either, a few days ago these guys were at each other's threats. sessions, of course, couldn't say he wanted to say publicly. the way that trump dissed him on tweets, et cetera. but here they are now again apparently in lockstep on this issue. >> well, this is what is troubling. >> yeah. >> one of the things to understand, and i write a lot about this in the book. it's one of the lost realities of the trump administration. there are power centers within this administration. and jeff sessions is a power center. he is -- even though the president was upset with him about some of the russia stuff, the reality is that jeff sessions comes with a constituency built up over many

decades, and that constituency advocates for an incredibly intolerant view. not just on immigration, but on a host of issues. and i'll remind you also that, you know, for all of the talk about divisions between sessions and trump, sessions' long-time aide, stephen miller, is still in the white house. and by all accounts,till very central to a lot of these discussions. >> i loved how you opened the book -- first of all, i loved the dedication to your mom and friends. you have to read the dedication. it's worth the price of the book. >> thank you. >> i loved that. but then i loved the next part of the book, where you actually give a user's guide for how to actually use a book. because the first question i had, john is going to tell us who these people are running things behind the scenes. but how do we use this book? what do we do with this? >> well, and i will recognize that some of your viewers may like president trump. quite a bit. i've been a critic of him for a long time. and i have always argued that this president came to this position without a lot of

political experience. he had entertainment experience and the way our politics is evolving, that was useful. but he didn't know much about governance. >> that's charitable when you say without a lot. he had none. >> right. and he didn't know the players, right? >> right. >> so here he is, trying to put together an administration. and it became clear to me very early on that he gave jobs to people who were the loudest yellers in the room. it wasn't to people who had the deepest experience or the insights or the nuance. so first and foremost, i think it's really important for people to understand why these people are where they are. they're not there because they're the best at it. >> got it. >> they're there because they yelled loudest, because they had the most money behind them, they had the most connections. with the hard right, his real strong conservatives will tell you, this is the most right wing administration in history. it isn't just a trump administration. it goes idea logically. so a lot of people understand that. but i also want to understand those who seek to resist this administration. those who object. that to simply obsess about donald trump, about his latest tweet, about his horrible press

conferences, whatever else upsets you about donald trump, is insufficient. it is insufficient, because we now have a cabinet system of governance, nothing like what washington or the founders imagined. they had tiny cabinets. this is large. these are multibillion-dollar agencies with thousands of staffers. and huge internal power to give executive orders. to change rules. and thus my argument for how to use this book is to learn how these people are, learn who objects to them, who is following them. and if you've got a passion on issues of war and peace, or the environment, or civil rights, or housing or whatever other issue, expand your focus beyond donald trump to the people he has empowered. often to act in our name, but without our informed consent. >> put you on the spot here. we know the names of some of these field generals we should keep our eye on, because we see them every day. we see jeff sessions every day. we see mr. tillerson at state every day.

so we see mattis every day. so some of these guys we see every day. give me a couple people who w w don't necessarily see every day but they're putting some serious strains. >> i'll start off with one central to what's been happening of late. elaine chao, a member of previous administrations. her record at the department of labor was a terrible record. it faced many objections, much criticism. not just from unions, but from people who analyzed how you run a government agency. but she is back. now she's running transportation. and we don't pay a lot of attention. we tend to think of it as, you know, make sure that planes go and buses -- that is such a powerful agency. with regard to our safety, as regard to spending of money. donald trump is talking about a $1 trillion infrastructure program. very real possibility that a lot of that will be run through the department of transportation. but not in the way this a franklin roosevelt did. more with privatization, a lot of corporations coming out with

more money than they have ever had. you really need to look at her and you need to look at her for one other reason, too. when donald trump had that horrible press conference on charlottesville -- >> she was standing there. >> right behind. do you know why she was standing there? because that press conference wasn't supposed to be about charlottesville. it was supposed to be about -- >> infrastructure. >> infrastructure. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> and they were announcing that they were overturning a order by barack obama called the federal flood risk management standard. that standard -- >> as harvey is on the way. >> well, a little bit before. didn't quite see the weather -- i don't think they would have done it if they had known what was coming. but that standard, because we're seeing such bigger storms, bigger storm surges, more flooding, we think it's related to climate change and there will be more in the future. we need to make sure when we spend money on infrastructure, to build a bridge, to build a road, hospital, whatever we're putting money into, that it be climate-resilient, be ready for the next storms coming. just days before harvey, they overturned that rule. now as we rebuild after harvey

and it will be a massive rebuilding, one of the critical rules to make sure that if the next storm comes what we build will stand has been taken off the books. why was it taken off the books? not because good fiscal conservatives wanted it off the books. this was crony capitalism. >> how much damage can they do, assuming they have best-case scenario, four years, worst-cares scenario eight years. >> they can transform america. we all understand the biblical concept. the apocalypse. and some people are afraid of donald trump. they fear him, as they say, having his finger on the button. and, of course, i don't, you know, detract from that concern. i read a lot about the generals and the military and these issues in here. but my concept of a tru

trumpapocylips. this view toward the battle between racists and those who oppose racism. all of these things. and what if that became america? well, it won't be donald trump that does that. if we have this transition, this transformation, it will be the people he has empowered. the people he has put in cabinet positions and advisory positions and also the people outside the administration who he gives voice to and gives connection to. and that transformation could reverse decades. our entire lifetimes, it could reverse the progress we have made. and as a country, we can't afford that. >> my time is running out here. i just read a piece. your colleague at the nation, john walsh, wrote a piece. >> yes. >> and i'm going to -- her piece basically was, why pence is worse than trump. if i hear you correctly, for those who believe that pence is worse than trump, if sounds like you don't really need mike pence if these people are doing what you say they're doing. >> that's exactly right. with all due respect, i write about pence in here, paul ryan and mitch mcconnell.

all these players. but with all due respect, donald trump has empowered people at agencies and in places we don't even pay attention to, like overseeing banking, overseeing environmental protection, overseeing all sorts of major, major aspects of our lives. and as long as they are there, as long as they're doing their bidding, even if at the end of the day donald trump were to take a month off and just lie in bed and not even tweet, right? not do anything. just take the month off, awful things would be happening, and a deconstruction of the regulatory state, and really of america as we want it to be would continue. because of these people who, frankly, much of the media are rarely even covered. >> sleep on that tonight. horsem horseman a field guide to the most dangerous people of america, john nichols. i said it twice and got it the second time too. >> very impressed with you, sir. >> will not go for a third time mime up next, former fema

director -- >> yes. >> michael brown. stay with us. ♪ pleased to welcome former fema director, michael brown, to this program. he joins us now from denver, colorado. mr. brown, good to have you on the program, sir. >> good to see you, tavis. thanks for having me. >> my pleasure. you were there for ckatrina. have you seen us repeat any or many of the same mistakes with harvey that we committed with katrina? >> i think we have seen a couple of things. i wrote an article for "the hill" magazine about evacuations. i don't know why in this country, but politicians of all levels seem to be afraid of the word evacuation. and i just think that we do a disservice. i almost think that sometimes elected officials don't believe that the american public can handle the truth. and if you would just speak honestly and openly to them about, we have the national hurricane center, the national

weather service. both predicting catastrophic rainfall for harris county and houston. so in 2001, with tropical storm allison, we knew -- and they should have known, that there were going to be areas that were going to be flooded and people would need to be rescued. now, some people have commented and said, well, you can't evacuate, you know, 6.4 or 7 million people. that's not my suggestion at all. my suggestion is, be honest and open with them about the areas that you think are most likely to flood. encourage them to leave. suggest that if you recall, hurricane harvey was going to make landfall on a friday or saturday. so get on the air and explain to people, you know, this might be a good weekend to go to dallas and see grandma. or go to austin and see your uncle or something. i just think we haven't learned these lessons that evacuations are not this all or nothing. evacuations can actually be done in a very time kind of a staged manner, where you can get people out of harm's way.

i just don't understand why we're afraid to do that. >> let me follow up on that. because as we sit for this conversation tonight, hurricane irma may very well be bearing down on southern florida. so the word evacuation is going to come up once again. it appears whether we like it or not. but to your point, let me ask a few things about that. i want to ask these questions and get out of your way and let you take it, mr. brown. one, why are politicians so afraid of the word evacuation, number one? is it the politicians are afraid of it, or that citizens don't want to be told that they have to evacuate, because many don't even when they're told to evacuate. what are the politics around the notion of saying to citizens, you need to evacuate? >> i think you just answered your own question, tavis. >> yeah. >> it is both of those things. i think that the elected officials are afraid to do it. and they're afraid to do it, because if you're the mayor or the governor of a state and you tell people, look, if i were you, i would get out of harm's way now. i would leave today. i would start moving northward and get out of the way of this

storm. and then hurricane irma takes a big dive off to the right and goes back into the atlantic, they will have warned people for nothing. but i don't think that should be their concern. because with the information that you have at the time, give that information to people and let them make their own decisions. and to your second point, i do believe that in this country, we don't like to be told by the government what to do. and i think there's this natural tendency -- look, i got a knock on my door one day, i live in the mountains outside denver. and it was a deputy sheriff telling me to evacuate because a wildfire had jumped the highway and was coming toward our subdivision. i didn't waste any time. i'm not going to have the fema guy get caught in the wildfire. and number two, i'm not going to risk my life or the life of the dogs and everything else just because, you know, i don't want to be told what to do. i got out. i left. and i was amazed to see the number of people that did not do that, despite the huge amount of

smoke, how fast the wildfire was moving. so i think it's this natural human tendency. we don't want to be told what to do. and then we just never -- let me tell you. i handled 160 presidentially declared disasters. and i guarantee you that every single one that i went to, i heard from one if not from 1,000 people, i never thought it would happen to me. and i think that's the mentality everywhere. >> i think you're willing to admit to me, michael, that there are politics that are played, even in a society so risk-averse. that's the point you're making now. even though there is the tendency to be risk-averse, there are politics that get played around these natural disasters. you experienced that with president bush, donald trump has made some mistakes, and some political missteps, i would argue around this particular hurrica hurricane harvey. what doesn't allow us to move past the politics when it comes to even things like natural disasters? >> well, you're right. i will be brutally honest with you. it probably will offend some

people. but when you think about it, every single disaster in this country involves one governor. it involves two u.s. senators. it involves at least one u.s. congressman, if not more. it involves at least one or more mayors. it involves at least one president. and then it involves the media, and then it involves all of the people that are in the area of operations in that natural disaster. so you have six or seven constituencies, and every single one of those constituencies is vying for attention. and, look, this is just -- i'm being brutally honest. every politician, whenever a disaster strikes, wants to be seen. they want to get on the cameras. they want to get in the newspaper. they want the photograph taken of showing that they care and that they're there helping. and oftentimes, they're just in the way. >> that is a brutally honest antibioti answer, but i certainly appreciate it. now that you're no longer in the

fema director's chair, what is your assessment then of the way president trump has handled things thus far? >> one of my concerns was, after we created the department of homeland security back in 2003, one of the problems that i experienced during katrina was this inability to get the bureaucracy in washington, d.c., to pay attention and to do what i asked them to do. and so i wrote this other op-ed, basically saying to president trump, don't let harvey become your katrina. you should step to that bully pulpit, just like theodore roosevelt, and you should say to your cabinet, look, brock long, the current fema administrator, when he asks for something, you give it to him instantly, without question, without hesitation. and if you don't like what he asks for, we'll argue about it later. but don't argue about it during the middle of the disaster. that was -- that was probably one of the biggest problems i faced during katrina. and i think that in this disaster, and hopefully irma, if irma does make landfall, we won't see these things happening. if the cabinet will rally around

the boss and say to the fema director, whatever you need, we'll make sure you get it. >> when you see these politics being played with issues like this, do you think it ever occurs to these people that they're playing politics with people's lives? i ask that, for example, because i just read a story today that was disturbing about what's happening in houston. where you have landlords who are demanding rent from persons whose places have been flooded. i don't know how the politics on this particular issue is going to play out, but something is wrong when people can be allowed to force tenants to pay rent when they have been flooded out, when they have been pushed out and yet because they have a lease signed, these landlords are still demanding rent in houston and surrounding areas. >> i think that in this country -- i haven't seen this story about the landlords in houston. but i would just simply say this. my experience has been that the vast majority of people care about those individuals, and

they understand what they're going through, and they're going to sit and they're going to -- i think think it through and say, you know what? i understand that right now you may not be able to get to a checkbook. you may not even have an atm card to get to an atm to withdraw cash, because you've lost those things in disasters. and so i would just say this to those landlords. you need to step back and realize what has happened to these people. and if you're so darn concerned about your money, maybe you ought to stop and think first about how do they even write you a check? how do they even get cash out of the atm? how do they do any of these things when all their papers and documents have been destroyed? so i would walks those landlords, you better think twice. you could find yourself in a horrible situation where you've lost everything and you don't want somebody coming banging on your door to get something you could wait for two or three weeks for. >> how is it politicians can say they care about their constituents when many of them represent areas that are prone to these kinds of disasters, and

they continue to deny the science? i have a hard time trying to square any president, any mayor, any governor, trying to act after the fact like they really care when on the front side, they denied the science that continues to underscore that these hurricane systems are going to get worse and worse and worse. they deny climate change. they deny global warming. and i'm not trying to be political. i'm just trying to ask you, how politicians say on the one hand that they care, but deny the science on the other hand. i don't square those two things. >> so let me step back for a moment. i'm one of those guys that believes that the climate changes all of the time. and i think it's up to a debate how much man might influence that or may not influence that. but i can tell you this, tavis, without any doubt in my mind. that what we do as a society, when we develop these huge swaths of major cities, whether it be houston, dallas, los angeles, new york or just denver, colorado. all of these places have huge developments. and all of those developments in

many cases are done without taking into consideration the natural disaster risks that that community faces. and so i always say to my friends, regardless of where they live, i'll ask them, just a simple question. do you know what risks you face where you live? and you know what? even my friends that know i'm the former fema director and that i'm really always thinking about these things, will kind of shrug their shoulders and go, i never really thought about it. so setting aside the climate debate, i think people need to recognize that whether the storms are going to get stronger or not stronger, we've always had hurricanes, tornadoes, we've always had blizzards, we've always had wildfires. in fact, i think virtually all of those are going on right now, except a blizzard. so i think people need to be aware of the risks of where they live and are they prepared for those risks. it's a very simple question and i don't think most people either ask or answer. >> are we ready for -- are we prepared for the risk? are we ready for what hurricane irma might do so close on the

heels of hurricane harvey? >> no. and i've said this for 12 years now, since katrina. i still don't believe this country is ready. we are a risk-averse society. we think that risk can be reduced to zero. and as just human beings, we ought to recognize that we cannot control mother nature. we cannot reduce the risk to zero. so we have to do two things. we have to learn how to mitigate against that risk, so if we're going to live on the coastal area of florida where we know hurricanes hit and have hit since the beginning of time, then we have to learn how to mitigate against those so that we don't see the kind of flooding that we saw in houston. if you're going to live in houston or you're going to live in new orleans, which is a fish bowl, that is protected by levees not designed to protect it. the pumps didn't work just with the last thunderstorm. people need to be held accountable, and we need to stop and think about, okay, if we're going to live here, what are the risks, and what can we do to mitigate against those risks?

how far can we go to mitigate against those risks? and how much are we willing to spend to do that? if we can answer those questions, i think the country would be better prepared. i just don't think people like being asked that question. >> he's the author of the book "deadly indifference," former director of fema, michael brown. mr. brown, good to have you on. of thank you for your insight. >> appreciate it. >> that is our show for tonight. >> appreciate it. >> that is our show for tonight. as always, keep the faith. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for conversation with john walsh on what's happening in houston. that's next time. we'll see you then.

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