good evening from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley. i have a conversation with bernie sanders. he talks about his plan to expand medicare to provide health care for every american and his new book titled, bernie sanders guide to political revolution which includes ideas about what it means to be a progressive these days and how to get involved with the america's democratic system. we're glad you joined us with bernie sanders in just a moment.

> set author of a new book called bernie sanders guide to political revolution he is the independent senator from vermont, former presidential candidate bernie sanders. senator, good to have you back on the program, sir. >> great to be with you. >> let me start by asking whether or not you are more annoyed about having to continue to answer questions about what hillary clinton said or are you more annoyed about what she said? >> well, a little bit of both. but the bottom line, is you know, that primary election ended well over a year ago.

and right now we're con fronting enormous problems with the trump administration. you know, whether it is the disastrous health care ideas, whether it is throwing 800,000 young people off of daca, whether it is they're refusal to acknowledge the reality of climate change, whether it's the desire to give huge tax breaks to billionaires. we have enough to worry about today. and in 2018 and 20120. i don't think we have to revisit and rehash the primary campaign. >> one or two follow ups and woint ask anything about hillary the rest of the night. you are annoyed by both that you continue to get asked about it and annoyed that she said it. can you tell me what most annoys you about what she said? what gets under your skin the most? >> well, you know, the thought that we did not strongly support her in the election. i did everything that i can. and by the way, you know, some of my supporters were not that happy about it. but i said over and over again,

we have got to do everything we can to elect hillary clinton. we don't want to wake up the day after the election and have the disaster of donald trump being president. and i was all over the country working as hard as i could. and to suggest that was not the case, you know, that's kind of disappointing. >> given the way that donald trump has behaved or misbehaved as president, do you believe now in retrospect that had you gotten the nomination you really could have beaten him? >> again, that's speculation. who knows? i think what i can say and what is a fact is that most of the polls had me ahead of him and doing better against him than hillary clinton was doing. does that mean definitively that i would have won? no. does that mean it was likely i could have won? the answer is yes. >> so the next question, is how are you faring in thor raf

dona -- in the era of donald trump? everyone knows what it means to be in capitol hill in the era of donald trump. what do you make of it? >> well, you know, the answer is we're doing the best that we can to try to fend off the disastrous policies that he has brought forth. right now it looks like the republicans are once again coming up with some outrageous health care proposal that will throw tens of millions of dollars off the health care that they have, defund planned parenthood, raise premiums for older workers. and that resur tag is rigfacing. we have to beat that back. we have to go forward in my view not only in protectsing the affordable care act now but moving towards a medicare for all single payer program. and i am very proud that when we introduce that bill last week we had 16 co-sponsors. and we're getting more and more

support all over the country from the american people fosh the understanding that health care in the united states has to be a right of all not just the privileged. >> what do you make of late of the new found friendship between chuck shum eastern nancy pelosi and the president? >> well, you know, the truth is that i don't think trump has much of an ideology except perhaps being a racist and xenophobe. i think he is asking the coke brothers people to guide him. i think he is understood at that extreme right-wing approach may not be working for him politically. he doesn't believe in much of anything and what he believes in today may nobt the case tomorrow. i think he is figuring out a way to try to maybe, you know, get the poll ratings up a little

bit. so if he in fact is prepared to reverse costs on this daca situation and figure out a way that we can provide legal status to the 800,000 young people who he was prepared to throw off of legal protection if he is prepared to move to immigration reform, we should work with him. during his campaign, you know, he talked a big deal about the high cost prescription drugs in this country which is just a very, very serious problem. drug companies are ripping off the american people every day. if, in fact he has some idea of keeping the promises he made, let's work with them on lowering the cost of prescription drugs. he talked about a trillion dollar investment to rebuild the fran structure. if he's prepared to keep that promise and not want to privatise infrastructure or give tax breaks to wall street to

rebuild the crumbling roads and bridged, let's work with him on that as well. >> i'm not sure that one is better than the other. when you called donald trump a racist and a xenophobe, do you really believe that or do you that i is some political strategy as you said a moment ago to placate the base? >> the answer is yes and no. i mean i think if you go back to his attacks on barack obama when he was leading the birther movement and trying to delegitimatize the administration of the first african-american president, i mean i think that's racist. i can't think of a nicer word to say. when you think about his attacks on the central park rape situation, you recall that. >> sure. >> with young men were found to be innocent and he was persisting on that issue, you call it what you want. i don't know. but it sounds to me like this is

kind of racism. so is it political? is what he believes? who knows? but certainly the policies that he has from bringing forth in terms of anti-muslim, in terms of anti-latino, in terms of, you know, anti-affirmative action and so forth and so on, don't look good noechlt. >> since you mentioned the flip-flopping which he continues to do, what do you make of his coming out against daca one day and then a couple days later hanging out with chuck schumer saying we'll find a way to protect the dreamers. i'm not sure i know where he stands on daca. do you know where he stands on daca? >> i don't know where he stands on anything. and the difficulty that we have is what he said yesterday may not be for better or worse be what he says tomorrow. so you do the best can you in the context of a president that lies a lochlt you know, i don't mean to be insulting. that is just the fact e lies a

lot. he changes his mind a loct. that's a hard situation to deal w i think you seize the opportunity. and if for whatever reason, for whatever reason he feels it's in his advantage to reverse costs on this horrific did thsh daca thing is so ugly. young people have grown up here in the united states. this is their home. this is where they're working and they go to school, where they serve in the u.s. military and to take away their legal status and allow themselves to be open to deportation, that is so ugly it's almost unimaginable. so if he is willing to reverse course on that, yeah, let's work with him on. that. >> this might be an impossible question as well. it is made more difficult on the fact that i don't know where he stands on things on any given day. but is it possible that if he continues on the course that he's on now might he be in fact on a collision course with his own party? it is possible that we could see his own party start to turn against him?

>> from a tactical point of view, when yurt presideou're th of the united states and you start making deals with democratic leadership without even informing the republican leadership, i think these republicans are increasingly suspicious and very nervous about their relationship with him. >> my initial question, mr. sanders, what has happened on capitol hill because i can't see what it is but you're smarter than i am and you live there every day. but what is happening on capitol hill that make the territory, the terrain any more fertile for a real conversation about this now than we had prior to the campaign? >> i'll tell what you happened. number one, people i think have begun to appreciate the gains of the affordable care act. 20 million more americans have health care. there is denial of coverage for

pre-existing conditions and a number of other positive benefits of the aca. can you imagine throwing depending on the legislation they brought forth 22, 23, 32 million americans off of the health insurance they have? just imagine if somebody who is sitting home on medicaid with cancer or with buy dietz and hea diabetes or heart problems. those people will die. we're talking about thousands of people dying if that legislation were to be passed. fortunately we're able to beat it back. but anyhow, what people were seeing as okay, affordable care act did some good. what the republicans are proposing is horrible. and nobody supports that in america.

but where do we go from here? the affordable care act still contains a whole lot of serious problems swrechlt 28 million uninsured. we have even more who are underinsured. high deductibles, high he could payments. we are paying the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. the cost of health care is rising. we're spending $10,000 per person on health care. almost 18% of our gdp and the projection is that number is going to go up in the next 20 years rather significantly. why are we spepding twice achz as canada or any other major country when our health care outcomes are not as good as the other countries? why do we pay the highest prices in the world for the medicine that we need? why are we the only major country not the guarantee health

care as a right to all people? when you start asking those questions, then the solution moves into the direction of saying okay, we have a medicare program for people who have 65 or older. generally speaking, i has worked over the last 52 years. seniors are by and large happy with it and proud of it. well why don't we just expand medicare to every man, woman and child in this country. people are saying, yeah, why not? why don't we do that? and the advantages of that is that to administer the medicare program cost 2%, 2% administration. you pay $25 a co-payment, i pay

$40, it is complicated and expensive to administer and the private insurance companies are spending between 12% and 18% on administration as opposed to 2% for medicare. we can save $500 billion a year on administration f we negotiate drug prices with the pharmaceutical like every other country is doing, we probably save another $100 billion. >> i am certain because i do this every day. i am certain that tomorrow the conservative right-wing web sites will have a field day taking clips of what you have said tonight and trying to pick this conversation part. i will venture to guess that one clip they spul what you suggested a moment ago where you intermated and i can see the headline bernie sanders calls donald trump and republicans doctors of death. what you suggested was that if we go the direction that they want us to go on health care,

that millions of americans are going -- some americans, you didn't say millions, but many americans are going to dichlt how are you going to respond tomorrow when they say you say that, senator sanders? >> i have responded. >> okay. >> and the answer is this is not bernie sanders. there was a -- a paper that checked it out. they said based on a number of studies. i'm not pulling this stuff out of my head here. look, if you deny -- this is common sense. if you take away health insurance from 20 or 30 million people and you got many of those people dealing with life threatening illnesses, doesn't take a genius to figure out some of them are going to die. i think the number is if you have 23 million people being thrown off of health insurance, i don't know, 15, 20, 25,000 people a year will die. that's all. that's a fact.

and they can throw everything they want at me. there are a number of stud yidz. it's not my information. these are studies done by doctors and scientists. >> right. >> i just want to ask. i suspect that's going to happen. i saw you are duly on record here. >> it is already happening. zbh i'm sure. >> get ready for some more tomorrow. yeah. >> so it seems to me that when you start this conversation by saying you have 16 or 17 co-sponsors when you introduced this legislation, i don't know how anything gets done in the senate if you can't find some moderate republicans to come with you. i just don't know who those moderates are anymore. >> tavis, let me be clear. and i sthed mshaid this many, m times. medicare for all in which we're taking on the drug companies. the drug companies have spent well over $3 billion on lobbying and campaign contributions. they're incredibly powerful force. the insurance companies are very powerful force. wall street that makes money

from this current health care system obviously very powerful. so no one ever heard me say that we're going to pass this tomorrow or we're going to pass this with republican leadership in the house and senate and the white house. but this is what i am saying. i am saying that more and more americans understand that that is the direction that we have got to go in and polling indicates that. and that the only way we pass this is when millions of people become actively involved in the political process and begin to stand up and fight for a health care system that works for the american people and not just for the drug companies and the insurance companies. so essentially, in my view this is less of a health care issue than it is a political issue. i think medicare for all makes a lot of sense. hard to argue against it. what we are arguing against is the power of the drug companies and the insurance companies and wall street and they are very

powerful people. and our job is to take them on through strong grassroots efforts all over this country. when we do that, i think we'll pass a medicare for all. >> i hear your point. medicare is one slice of it. ed broader question is how do you even find any room to create democratic c space to have a debate about any domestic program when it appears the direction they want to move in is to cut domestic spending? >> because what you should appreciate and what everyone should appreciate is that this republican agenda is incredibly unpopular. essentially, the polling for their proposals and for millions off of health insurance are lower than any other major legislation in recent years. nobody thinks. very few people think we should give tax breaks to billionaires and cut programs for working people. nobody thinks, very few people

think that we should move medicare into a voucher type program. most americans know the climate change is real. and already causing devastating problems which is not what the republican leadership with trump believes. so the point is their agenda is way out of touch with the american people. the reason they're able to win elections and they have done very well in that in recent years is they have unlimited sums of money behind them and able to come up with wedge issues which divide the american people. and what i am doing and what many of us are trying to do is bring people together, not allow trum top divide us up by the color of our skin or the country we're born in or our sexual orientation or our religion, stand together around an agenda that demands the government work for all of us and not just the 1%. that's the direction we have to move in. >> 1% is one number. 12% is another number. you know where i'm going with this. 12% is the number we're told of the person who's supported you

who went on to vote for donald trump. do you believe that number? if so, what do you make of it? that is low, actually. i believe that number was 24% of people who supported hillary clinton in 2008 anden in end en voting against john mccain and barack obama. we live in a time when political allegiance to a party is not particularly strong. you know, there are more independence now than democrats or republicans. so why would it shock anybody that somebody who voted for hillary clinton voted against obama and for john mccain? yo y. it would shock anybody that voted for me would vote against clinton and vote for donald trump? >> i gis ges what shocks me -- let me take a stab at answering that question. what is shocking for some people is you and donald trump are so opposed on so many issues that it just seems weird that somebody can spord you and then flip and short donald trump. >> well, i know that.

but again, it seems to me to be weird to somebody could support hillary clinton and vote for a conservative republican like john mccain. we live in a country that is not particularly ideological. there are people that like me and people that like donald trump and people who like hillary clinton and people like john mib r. mccain. but in fact again, i would reiterate that as i understand it, according to some of the studies twice as many people voted for mccain who had voted for clinton. >> not your fault. you're not responsible. i'm just asking what you made of it. what does it mean in thor raf donald trump? what does it mean to bernie sanders to be a true progressive. >> what i means is to understand that the trump agenda of tax breaks for billionaires are throwing millions of people after of health insurance.

of trying to take away legal status and not recognizing the reality and danger of climate change. that all of those things which is essentially the republican agenda is a minority perspective in america. what it means to me as a progressive is to stand with the working families, stand with the middle class, stand with lower income people who are struggling every day to make ends meet and put -- bring people together around a progressive agenda. what it means, tavis, is the $7.25 federal minimum wage is a starvation wage. and i'm proud of the progress we're making. more and more americans support a $15 minute yum an hour wage. it means in my view to invest the trillion dollars to create $15 million jobs and rebuilding our roads and bridges and our water systems.

more and more people support. that i'll be in california this weekend in san francisco to talk to a college in san francisco, san francisco college which is now tuition free. and we're seeing movement all across this country where more and more states and locations are talking about the need to make public colleges tuition free and reduce student debt. more and more people are talking about transforming our energy system away from fossil fuel to energy efficiency and sustainable energy. more and more people are talking about the need for real criminal justice reform so we don't have more people in jachlt so being a progressive means coming up with an agenda that speaks to the needs of middle class and working families, having the guts to take on wall street and the drug companies and the insurance companies and the fossil fuel industry and bringing people together. getting them involved in the political process. >> i have 45 seconds to go. let me close on. this back to your book, bernie

sanders guy to political revolution. there is a book specifically aimed at young readers. you're going to speak at a college in san african this week. what is your message in this moment to young people? >> that they have the future to transform this country. that they have the idealism. they have the energy to help lead this country in a very, very different way. we have a great younger generation is the most progressive generation of young people in the history of this country. and what i want them to do is not just talk about bold ideas. i want them to get involved in the nitty-gritty of day to day politics. run for school board. run for city council. run for state legislature or the united states congress. get involved and transform this country. have the guts to take on the billionaire class and we can do wonderful things in america. >> the numbers are astonishing. you pulled more young votes than hillary clinton and donald trump combined in this last race.

the new book is aimed at that generation, "a guide, bernie sanders guide to political revolution" available at fine book sellers everywhere. senator sanders, always an horror. >> take care. >> that's our show. thanks for watching. and as always, keep the faith.

good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. with the emmy awards just days away, tonight we'll talk to one of its biggest winners of all time, actor ed asner, well known for his role as lou grant on "the mary tyler moore show" and subsequent spinoff "lou grant." mr. asner's the winner of seven acting emmy awards and has been nominated a total of 20 times. tonight he'll reflect on his career, a name he made for himself as a political activist and so much more. we're glad you've joined us. a conversation with television legend ed asner coming up in just a moment. ♪