good evening from los angeles i'm tavis smiley. some leaders are rising up against a gospel of greed. stripping immigrants of and failing to offer adequate health care all go against the bible. tonight the religious leaders reverend dr. william j. barber and jim wallace join us for a conversation about political organizing on the so-called religious left. we're glad you joined us. all of that coming up in just a moment.

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. please welcome reverend dr. william barber and activist jim wallace. delighted to have you both here. so weird to find you guys on the schedule at the same time in l.a. so thank you for coming to see us. i've been anxious to have this conversation, particularly in this moment of uncertainty and

fear and angst where i think people are losing hope. a conversation that obviously is rooted in our spirituality, but i think can be a bit more broad than that. when we talk about faith in this country, we tend to talk about it always, jim, from the perspective of those on the right. but for some reason they have been able to corner the market it seems on conversations about faith and freedom. why is that? >> the corner of the market, the corner of the bible are jesus. opening man tes toe, he said the lord is upon me to give good news to the poor. it isn't the gospel of jesus. we had at the anniversary of this august, they went on a

clergy march. and it was really good. you know, you think these things are political, these are theological issues. until we get to the spirituality and the theological foundation on what we're talking about here, we're missing it. >> yeah. is the term the religious left the term that you embrace, the term you find offensive, a term that is only an existence in response to the religious right? what about this term the religious left. >> well, i actually do not like it. first of all, the whole right, left parallel comes out of the french revolution, and that's not where we are. i think it's a misnomer, i talk about the immoral hijacking of religion versus the moral center. jim said that 2,000 scriptures that how you deal with the poor, ezekiel 22 where politicians are described as wolfs when they attack the poor. they are required to go to the

king. go to the new testament, luke 4, starts with the poor. and interesting the most evangelical text in the bible is luck 4:18 been the spirit of the lord is upon me to preach good news to the poor. those who have been made poor by economic exploitations. what we have seen and i hate to tell you, tavis, but california started some of this mess. >> they say cast a long shadow or a long sun beam. >> 1935. >> james who is a preacher here connected with business leaders all men, general motors. chamber cough commerce and the goal was to km together and protect business people against the new deal. and they came up with this weird form of predestination. if you're good, you go to heaven, bad, hell. good, middle class and healthy, if you're poor it's because of

your personal choices. it's a lot of money. it's a lot of money. what about spirituality? it wasn't about christ, it wasn't about the prothetic engagement, it was merely about trying to line up capitalism anden christianity in a perfect hook. and really, it was a form of heresy that happened. and it spread all over and continuingly growing and growing and growing, that's why i don't like the term left and right. left has a theological and moral conversation because right now we're having -- we're in a serious -- >> that's prosperity gospel. that many of the advisors say they believe is the heresy. it's not a biblical gospel. isaiah 6, we talk about, it says woe to you legislators who deny my family of their rights. and jesus said hey, it was me, i was hungry. i was thirsty. i was naked. i was a stranger.

it was me. you're not paying attention. it was me. as you've done it that you've done to me. to hear about jesus in the bible, you go in a whole different direction. it's a politicized movement. so why do we want to be a politicized religious left -- >> but, but, but, these practitioners of this gospel aren't just whites around donald trump. >> negros -- >> that's right. >> don't get me started. i don't care whether you're black or white, if you participate in a society ducking religion that's only about private religion and that basically scapegoats and has no kworl with the system and injustice, black, brown, white, it is not the gospel. it is not the biblical faith. and what we've seen is this kind of you either have a praise party and prayer and you isolate yourself from the world, or you go in and you lay hands on a president, and i've got a lot of

pushback because i said, it is not pibl call faith to go in and pray for any leader, black, white, or other, while they are preying on the most hurt, the people hurting the most. and not saying a thing. that's one of the reasons why we have engaged in this poor people's campaign a national call for moral. we have to have a moral revival in this country. you think about it, we just went through a debate on how to kill people, take health care for people. we had 26 presidential elections, i mean debates, democrat and republicans. not one hour on systemic racism, not one hour on poverty. not one hour on ecological devastation, not one hour on the war economy. not one hour of debate. that's a moral problem. that's a moral analogy that we've got change. >> by the way, if you're looking at the handsome message and

you're trying to say where do i know this guy from? he killed it at the democratic get together. that's maybe you where you saw him. dr. king of course, you can't talk about a campaign without talking about dr. king -- >> exactly. >> and king was calling for a moral revolution of values. i hope you can disagree with that notion, i am not altogether convinced that americans are in a space to receive, to hear, much less to act upon a push toward a moral revolution of our values. we operate, we operate in a political space, we operate in a social space, in a cultural space, i'm just not sure that we can operate the way king was calling for in a moral space where we push our values. am i wrong? >> this is hurting -- who was

close to kennedy, he was a mentor. he said with jim you can't start a movement, but you can prepare for one. we're preparing for this movement here. i think these are theological and i think a new generation wants their lives and faith to make a difference. we've been running around the country in different tracks and lots of people are coming to have this conversation. how do you build a bridge to a new america? how do you really go across that demographic? how do you navigate that? i think that's happening in ways, in fact, there's kind of a trump opportunity here. if we go deeper into our faith, deeper into our faith, deeper in the relationship with each other across all of these lines and boundaries and deeper with those most impacted, who are most jeopardized and endangered, undocumented young dreamers pop people and voter suppression now

from washington, and muscles are being pushed. if we go deeper into all of those relationships, go deeper, i think we could have a movement stronger than anything we've seen far long time. if we go deep per. >> well actually what i would say there's a movement afoot. now for instance, for the last four years i've been in north carolina, we did moral monday. you didn't see cnn put # 00,000 people in the streets led by clergy, black and white from the others. a lot of people didn't talk about that. right now liz, dr. liz who's a coach here at the campaign, we're doing 15 cities, organizing people deep. we have not had under 1,000 people in those meetings under 20,000 people online trump is a symptom of a deeper morality. do you realize for instance that the people who are because i'm antihome sexuals, antiproperty

rights. the same people against living wages, against health care that are hurting, mostly white people in raw numbers. so what i'm finding underneath all of this, there is a deep part. one of the reasons i spoke at the democratic convention and i refuse to do some kind of like political scheme, because i told him, i'm not doing that. two times i said i wasn't going to speak because we need, as i said, we got a heart problem. we've got a deep moral problem. and on the ground, i've been working in this moral movement for four, five years in north carolina, and i'm telling you, i've seen people come together in places we would never imagine, and what i do know, jim, is there is this principle in scripture, isaiah was told only 10% of the people are going to listen to you. but that 10% will be the remnant. there has to be a remnant right

now. one's about 58 people. dr. king said if i could get 3,000 people to do targeted agenda-based civil disobedience, we can shift the moral narrative. if we shift the moral narrative, then we can shift the moral politics. >> for some reason, i hear michelle obama in my head saying when they go low, we go high. and hillary started quoting michelle when they go low, we go high. low won. >> right. >> low won. come on, and i'm not trying to be snarky. my question is how do we appeal to this moral mallty that our society faces when people think right now that low wins. not high. >> well, part of the problem is, wooechb democrats, is that's why you have to have a movement that's not bound by partisan. the framing is so wrong. take this issue apart. so on the one hand, you'll get a ryan or a mcconnell, talk about positivity, then they say it's basically the fall of the poor, and all we need is throughout. and we get the democrats to document back and say we're

working for the white middle class. and never even say -- not just the name, the condition of 10 it million poor and working poor people. only a movement can force a change in that dynamic. and that's why i said if we went through 26 presidential debates in the democratic primary, the republican primary, and the general election, and neither side -- neither side had an hour on the poor, neither side talked really about systemic races, may have talked about being against david duke or something, but i'm talking about systemic disparities, guys, we didn't have an hour on restoring the voting rights act that's been gutted 52 years after. more voting rights in august 6, 1965, we just saw a movement has to force that conversation. and we're not talking about this campaign, i can't say it all on tv right now, just having another rally or another tweet storm, we're talking about a

season of serious agenda-driven, soles of poor folks, civil disobedience in 25 states and the district of columbia. over a period of time, we have to break through this limited moral narrative. >> and as you know, wasn't even a majority of black churches who were supporting this. >> that's right. >> it was this critical minority. critical minorities change majority conversations. and that's what i see happening now. when 81% of white evangelicals voted for donald trump, most of the white catholics did, most of the white main line did, offered a word there with white christians wasn't christian. it was white. and now a whole new generation

saying, in seattle, 1,000 people two nights ago, it was predominantly a white city, but again, they want to change their sense of what two things that are safe right now. the soul of the nation. >> and the integrity. >> those two things are at stake. the sole of the nation and the integrity of faith. so the soul and not just be -- we don't want to be the religious left, the auxiliary for the democratic party. if i said we might be able to save the sole of the nation, but the integrity of faith is lost. push back on that. >> first of all, i would say no it's not. thousands and thousands of other people. when we started in north carolina, people said it's not going to work, people can't come together, only 17 of us got arrested by the end of the summer, up 900 people over 1,000, and we won. over four years.

we won in terms of changing that, we want to get voter suppression. so it is possible there's a group of a whole lot -- i tell people i am a theologically pentecostal charismatic. i'm klain. all of that palestinian jew called jesus, and there are so many people, i was looking at a poll, jim, that said, even when they asked a question after the exit poll, they only allow white people to say they're evangelical. now the question is about black evangelicalism or brown or many, many white people, my church is christian church disciples of christ. evangelical church, elected an african american woman that just fully endorsed a poor people's campaign. i think we're in the middle of a third reconstruction not only of our politics, but of a coming out. it's not that we haven't been here, but a coming out and a recognition we've got to get back to preaching in the public square. not just in the sanctuary, not

just on wednesday nights, but in the public square. and there's a heart for that. >> jesus said you'll know the truth, and the truth will make you free. so, unless we tell the truth about america's original sin, our soles are still here. you know, i was going to say, white christianity, that phrase, it's idolatry. white supremacy is a myth, a lie, a construct to ideologieid also an iele to, in the bible, idols separate us from god. so this myth has separated white christians from god. this is about our faith and our souls. i think people are feeling that and seeing that. and i think there's a time coming now where faith is going to be more important than politics. it's going to be a minority, but it's going to change the conversation, but only if we put faith ahead of politics. faith in public life starting with our faith. >> i am -- i'm processing what you said a moment ago.

i gave a speech not long ago, and the speech was whatever happened to the notion of love in the public square? >> yeah. >> what happened to love. king put love in the public square, and mandela, bobby kennedy came around, putting love in the public square. tell me how you would imagine that working these days. and i ask that because people are so cynical nowadays. that if you know you're going to put love in the public square, and you going to be pushed back on or laughed at, how do you process that? crucify, how do you find the courage to do that? >> well, that's part of our faith. the first thing is the faith to have faith in the midst of so much despair. it is to make a clear decision, whether or not i'm going to be a priest of the empire or prophet to the nation. and the movement is going to be priest to the power prophets to the nation. what i have seen, tavis, is that i think about the minority movement. people said to us, even atheists

would come and they would say we don't necessarily believe in religious faith, but something about this sounds right. i'm here because the constitution morality starts with the establishment of justice. taking people's health care is not just. taking the right to a living wage is not just. we, every monday, would gather and people said to me, it turned into public square church. now we started with a few, by the end of the summer, you would have 19, 20,000 people showing up every monday. so one of the things we're saying in the poor people's campaign for a period of time, we need to have some unity that will turn some state capitals and maybe the office of ryan and mcconnell into public square. we need to have a seasonal of civil i did obedience -- >> i heard something. >> where that's conspicuous. all right.

with poor people and each week is a targeted agenda. >> yeah. >> because if we don't break through the narrative, i mean, you think about it right now. you made it, most of the major media has not even talked about the worst attack on our voting system. which is not rush russians, but voter suppression. >> that's right. >> not the voting sites in the black community, brown community, poor white community this last time, and voting, i said, these theological, it's a deep theological sin to deny you the right to vote, ian god allows you to vote and choose. and since you only give the right to vote to human beings, if you deny somebody the right to vote, you are questioning their humanity. >> uh-huh. >> you are questioning the human. so we have got reframe -- we talk about we have to reframe from left and rielt versus right and wrong. >> yeah. >> it's not left versus right, but right versus wrong.

>> you think that civil disobedience has the power it once had? i only ask because we talk how to do this, now whenever people want to protest themselves, they take to the streets and i'm all for that, but there's so much right now. >> it can't be just one time, it can't be knee jerky, that's why the other part of the poor people's campaign. we have the poor people and people working on the sole support for artisan america since 1968. around these issues because you can't just curse the documents. you've got to also offer light and it can't be a one-time -- it has to be a season of it. >> and this is where you're asking, you say, i don't want to be cynical, people are feeling that because of what they're seeing. dez monday taught me the difference between optimism and hope. >> oh yeah. true thing. >> optimism is how we look today and things don't look good and the health care thing all over again, but, hope is not a feeling.

or a mood or a half cup full, it's a decision you make. it's a choigs. i learn my theology in south africa when they decided with no evidence. so the text, faith is the substance of things and the evidence of things not seen. hope is believing in spite of the evidence and then watching the evidence change. and that is done by acting. and that's why i'm feeling the hope now. everybody will not do the civil disobedience, but we believe somebody has to do it to break through the narrative. because right now, the narrative

is chasing tweets and e-mails and i think mr. trump is not dumb, but very shrewd because he has a lot of generals as advisors, one military tactic is diversion. it's always divert, divert, divert, and we have to have a season, not one e-mail, not one march, not one texting, not one day, but a season, maybe 40 days, i'm just saying. >> yeah. >> i'm just saying. i see you. >> i've said many times on this program and the audience heard me say this repeatedly, i think the poverty is threatening our democracy, i think the poverty a matter of national security, and yet the question i ask is, why do you think movety is, can, or will be an issue? >> well, i think -- actually i don't. i think it has to be race and movety. i think it has to be a fusion. but i spent an hour and a half sitting with joseph stickily. and we better deal with this question that he raised as a

nobel peace prize economist. the cost of inequality. we hear people say what will cost to change this? what does it cost to keep it the same? what does it cost to keep voting rights is up pressed. what does it cost to keep people without a living wage 15 and a union? what does it cost? it will cost this nation it's soul, it's economic health, and it's future. is what i believe. >> because, in fact, it's about that. it's about the image of god. it's genesis chapter 1, the original sin wasn't just slavery, it was before. it was christians. white christians, and britain and u.s., i'm a christian, they said we can't do to indigenous people or kidnap unless, if their people we can't do it. we'll do racial difference. racial superiority, that's what the original sin was. and so that's, that's our souls are at stake here. so i think it's, it's restoring the image of god.

it's not just poverty, it's what, who is welcomed as the children of god? our souls are at stake here, and we're starting to figure that out. >> thank you both for coming on. reverend wallace and reverend barber, i think just got teed up big announcement. that's coming some time soon, maybe a 40 day season. >> we'll see. >> campaign, we'll see -- you get ready, let me know. and where you want me to meet you, i will be there. >> yes, sir. >> thank you both for coming on. >> that's hour show tonight, thanks for watching and as always, keep the faith. for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. hi i'm tavis smiley, join me next time as we take a deep dive into what's happeningaround the country. that's next time, we'll see you then.

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you.

good evening from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley, tonight a first can steve cohen, the democratic congressman from tennessee will give us an update on the articles of impeachment he plans to file against president trump following his comments about charlottesville. then we'll speak with actress miss green about her starring role in star trek discovery. glad you joined us. all of that in just a moment.