good evening from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with acclaimed actor willem dafoe. he's best remembered for his portrayal of jesus christ, the green goblin, and the only green vampire character ever nominated for an oscar. we'll talk about his newest turn as a motel manager named bobby in "the florida project." we're glad you've joined us. a conversation with actor willem dafoe coming up in just a moment. ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ >> so pleased to have willem dafoe back on this program. the appleton, wisconsin, native is best known for "spider-man," "the last temptation of christ" and oscar nominated roles in "platoon" and "shadow of a vampire." he's getting high prize and oscar buzz -- i hate to embarrass him -- for his role as bobby in a project called "the florida project." before our conversation, a clip from the film. >> yeah. >> i got a videotape of the kids illegally entering the utility room. >> okay.

[ whispering ] did you hear what i said just to her? >> i got it. i'm going to talk to him. >> you're out of here. only second week of the summer, and there's already been a dead fish in the pool. >> we were doing an experiment. we were trying to get it back alive. that was my idea. >> and water balloons thrown at tourists. you can't [ muted ]. tourists. >> it didn't tip us. >> are you serious? >> oh my god, this is unacceptable. i've failed as a mother. you disgraced me. >> yeah, mom, you're a disgrace. >> why is this called "the florida project"? >> "the florida project" refers to -- "the florida project" was a name when walt disney was buying up land around the kissimmee area in central florida for disney world. that's -- that was kind of the code name for the project. >> yeah. >> and this story takes place in that area very close to disney world.

the setting is a budget tourist motel where a lot of the residents are longtime, long-term temporary residents, and they're basically people who don't have a home, and they're living at this budget motel, kind of week by week. >> yeah. when i got a chance to look at this, it's fascinating for me, and i think it will be for filmgoers, film lovers, as well. and this is -- it's not an uncommon story, the story of america, as i think about it. the things that happen in the shadows of the things that we focus on. so that to your point, disney world is the focus. but all this other stuff just in the shadows, just in that perimeter, there are stories like this that we would never know. >> it's true. i wasn't aware of this world that existed. actually, in this movie, the world is that world. disney's in the shadows. >> i got it. >> yeah.

and we -- the story doesn't point fingers specifically at disney, it's just that that's a place that an entertainment industry has grown up aound, it's the happiest place in the world. it's billed as that. it's a place for people to be amused and have fun and enjoy themselves. but in the shadow of that is this place where people struggle, struggle to make ends meet. >> tell me about bobby. the character you play. >> bobby, iplay the manager of the motel. he lives there. he's like these people. he's just about a paycheck ahead of them because he could be them. but he is -- it's an interesting character because he's not, let's say he's not an extraordinary person. i mean, he doesn't have extraordinary gifts. but he wears a lot of hats. and he keeps his motel going, and he's got to deal with a lot of problems because he's -- he's an authority figure because he's got to collect the rent and people have trouble making rent.

he's got to cut them some slack. he doesn't want to kick them out. he's always very conflicted. he's got to deal with these kids that he loves, but they're also a pain. >> uh-huh. >> they get in his way. he's got lots of challenges. >> yeah. >> so -- it's a nice character. >> yeah. i found myself wondering what it was about bobby's back story that allowed him, that caused him to be in this predicament. >> well, he's got a job. 's not really a predicament. i mean, you know, and one of the things when i did research for this and i met some guys that do this kind of job, the one thing that was kind of surprising, struck me, is they're very proud of their work. >> yeah. >> this community is like a microcosm of a world, you know. and he -- he tries to make -- do the best he can with the kind of bad situation. somewhere deeply he understands

that for him to be happy they've got to be happy. and he's pretty compassionate guy. at the same time, he's -- he's the order. he's the -- he's the structure. he's got to keep things going. >> yeah. i'm fascinated -- when you say you did research on this and found people who do this for a living and you say they took such pride in their work, clearly there is dignity in all work, i believe, as there's dignity in all work. specifically given what they're up against and all the hurdles they have to jump through and over and -- and what you just described and what we see bobby having to endure in this assignment, what was it specifically that you discovered that they take such pride in? >> making it better. >> yeah. >> making a bad situation better. >> yeah. >> contributing, helping people. they start to identify with the people. they become like an extended family. and i don't want to ge too sweet about it, because he,

probably in this job he has to kick people out sometimes. e's got to be hard. >> yeah. >> but -- >> yeah, tell me about this family and about these kids. >> the kids -- we see much of the movie through their eyes. the kids that are some -- on some summer vacation, a lot of them have single parents. the parents are having a hard time. some of them have work, some of them work two jobs. some of them have no work. they got to figure out ways to make ends meet. it's not always the most legal or -- or easy ways to make ends meet. these kids, they're running around, they know nothing different. they're wild. we see the florida landscape through them. we see that milieu, that motel milieu through them. and -- and the relationships are interesting because, for example, the central character, this character mooney, 6-year-old little girl -- >> sure. >> -- has a relationship with her mother that is almost sisterly.

because she's a young mother, and her mother, you know, isn't -- you saw in the clip she's not the perfect mother. she -- she doesn't take it from anyone. and she -- she's in a precarious place because she doesn't have any training. she doesn't have a job. she's struggling to make ends meet. they're all living in this one room. >> yeah. >> it's really about a cycle of being in this precarious position, of having no stability. with no stability, what happens of course is the kids develop in a different way. they fall behind in school. you know, they -- they're by themselves a lot. they're unsupervised. there's a sweet part to that, a sweet anarchy, and we see that. and we see kind of fun and innocence kind of a huck fin misadventure aspect to it. you also see that if they don't get the right tuneds, they're

headed kind of where the parents are. and the parents are struggling. >> i love that phrase, sweet anarchy. >> right? >> i didn't know there was such a thing, but you got me to think about it. i like it, willem. i like it. as i was looking at this, i thought about a conversation i had with steven spielberg one time years ago. and i've been thinking, what -- i'm missing one of the things he told me. he told me there were three things -- i must have asked him what advice do you give to young filmmakers. steven spielberg says three things, there are three things not to do -- do not do your first film with kids, with water, and the third one -- i'm blanking on right now. maybe it will come to me before the conversation is over, but the point is that you worked with a bunch of kids in this project. >> yeah. >> and in your case -- >> i had just come from a project about water. >> water. yeah. >> i got a nose. >> but you're a veteran now, academy-nominated veteran. by the way -- >> veteran of what? >> for you, hollywood trivia

buffs, willem dafoe is the only actor, i think i'm corrected about this, the only actor nominated for an academy for playing a vampire -- for those of you who like trivia stuff. here you are with the kids. i'm reading the research preparing for our conversation, stuff i didn't know. these kids are like -- some of these kids, haven't done this for very long. >> no. >> first of all, they're kids. some of these kids are just getting into the acting thing. >> yeah. >> the mother, you guys found on social media somewhere. >> social media. >> you found the mother on social media. >> she's fantastic. >> yeah. she is. but -- but the question is how as a veteran you found the experience of playing with these -- >> great. >> yeah. >> great. we had so much real elements to work with and sean, the director, is so good with a little help from his partner who kind of coached the kids. samantha klon. i don't know.

they were natural. they're cast well. and you know, sometimes, yes, you lose certain things, maybe you livelihoods a certain kind of refinement that -- you know, certain things can't be refined, but you have an energy and kind of commitment and kind of lack of self-consciousness if it's set up right where the kids are playing. they're kids before they're actors. and some of them aren't actors and don't necessarily aspire to be actors. i'm sort of dealing with the real deal. and that sometimes -- that's preferable to a trained, crafted performance. because stuff is happening. you know, it's not -- it's not shaped maybe, but then the director, if he's -- if he's a good direction, to and sean's a very good director, is able to frame it and structure it in a way that that play can, you know, be fed into a narrative. >> yeah. >> the truth is, i had to fit in with them. i had to get my stink of an actor out of there. i had to become a human being.

you know what i'm saying, because actors can develop tricks. they can develop a ton of distance with technique sometimes. >> yeah. >> and i -- there's a part of me that always admires the ability to come off as a non-actor, you know. to -- to have someone -- my ambition is when someone sees you on the screen, it's not very realistic, as i've made a lot of movies, so maybe someone's seen him in another movie, see someone on the screen and think they're the guy and think where'd they get that guy, you know? i like that. i've always liked actors like that. you know, some character actors that probably, maybe they're highly trained but don't feel like it. they feel like people first. and you d't see ts g, wound-up performance. i like that because it lets you in in a different way. it becomes less of a show and less -- lets things happen. >> yeah. see, this is the sweet spot for me. >> okay. >> now we're into your process. which i'm curious about. >> it changes all the time. >> it does? >> yeah.

yeah. depending on what your job is. >> tell me more. tell me more. >> just depending on what your job is. sometimes how you position a movie, what your character has to do or what your relationship is with the director. are you the flash? are the collaborator? are you the person that they see the -- see the movie through? do you have a transformation? do you have to deliver exposition in a tasteful way? you know, it's always changing. also your relationship to the character. sometimes it comes easy. sometimes you find a trigger and you're there and can pretend like that. sometimes you have to claim it through research and doing things that kind of give you the authority to pretend. it's always different. and that's what's fantastic about being a performer. it's filled with so much uncertainty and so much -- you know, so many moving pieces that you never know. so what you got to do, it's always a little bit of an adventure. in this, when you have all of

these real elements, mixed with fiction elements, the real elements kind of root you in a truth and keep you honest. make you really that story of those people, those people become us, you know. and then the fiction is something that we craft to kind of -- you know, let a story come alive. now that we make a reportage. >> i'm curious because to me you are a curious actor. i say that respectfully. you're a curious actor because when i see you, i don't see a particular thing. confident to you. there's some actors, i see their faces, and i can tell you what they play. this is what they do well. they do it in every film. they do the same thing. when i see you, i mean, your face, the way your face, is uniquely different in everything you do. which leads me to ask how you go about choosing the stuff that you want to do, particularly at this point in your career. >> thanks for the compliment.

you know, it's a lot about people and situations. a lot of people think it's about character or the story. those things shift. you don't always know what you are. i get around people that inspire me, and i want to make something with, or the situation, you know -- he says, we're going down to a motel that really exists. people are living there. we're telling their story. we've made a story. you're going to be -- you know, i'm sitting there, my dressing room is in another one of these little rooms right next to the real residents. >> yeah. >> i'm seeing them. i'm getting to know them. that's a life adventure. and that -- the stuff that you learn, the shift of awareness of certain things gives you energy and also opens your mind and opens your artand then you caapply that to the pretending and hopefully make a story that challenges what you take for granted. that's when movies are at their best. when you look and say, my god, i never saw it that way, or i got to change -- i got to check

myself on that, i think they shake you out of a conditioned way of thinking. that's a gift. that's what you aspire to. i look for places where i smell there's an opportunity for that. it doesn't always happen. sometimes you want to do some things for fun. as i hear myself, it sounds high-minded, and part of it is. >> yeah. >> you know, i'm -- i want to be an entertainer, i also want to be an artist. it's always about finding situations that you can kind of exercise both of those impulses. >> is it true that those two things aren't always the same? >> yeah, i think so. i think so. >> yeah, yeah. >> maybe they are. you know -- >> you may be fascinated by this -- >> the same way that actors and movie stars aren't always the same thing. >> there you go. >> when you were talking about that person that's known for that thing, i know what you're talking about. sometimes that can be beautiful.

because an actor can refine their persona in such a way that they organize stories and materials around them thastill they can be very effective -- >> theownside isou become typecast. if you can't break out of that -- >> yeah. >> you can become typecast. >> yeah, but if you refine that persona, you can tell all kind of stories and take us interesting places. >> fair enough. >> but that's not my talent, because i'm not interested in this creating a persona of myself. i'm more interested in a flexible persona, because for whatever reason, i -- you know, i like going to bend myself to a story. because you know who i am is what i do, and what i do is up for grabs. >> i'm looking at the notion of the difference between entertainment and art. and sometimes they're not the same thing. my mind goes back to a conversation i had. it was really a comeuppance.

she sat me down and sort of spanked me. the late, great maya angelou. >> okay. >> i was like sort of a -- she was a surrogate mother to me. we were having a conversation one time. i write about this in one of my books. she had taken a particular role, and i thought the role that she had taken in this movie was a bit beneath her, given -- >> whoa. >> given the -- >> whoa -- >> given that she was maya angelou. i said, can i ask you a question? i used to call her, mother maya. "mother maya, can i ask you a question?" she called me young tavi, she said "sure, young tavis." i asked her, hy did you take this particular role in this parcular film? i just -- i think it's so sort of beneath you. why would you do that?" and i got the lecture of my life about the difference between entertainment and art. and how you have to not be so hearty or high-minded that you don't understand the difference between the two, that you don't accept the two, recognize that you need both in your life, and sometimes they're not the same thing and sometimes they are. but if you can't appreciate, just as you say, doing stuff for fun, just pure entertainment, if you can't appreciate that alongside high art, then your

life is going to be a little bankrupt. she gave me the lecture of my life about that, a big lecture. >> did you thank her? >> well, i'm not going to say i thanked her, but -- she spanked me. whether i thanked her, i'm not so sure. it was a lesson. and i found myself over the years going back to that. so you made the comment about entertainment and art, it just kind of took me back there. they can be the same thing, but not always. >> yeah. >> yeah. you were growing up in appleton, wisconsin. >> yeah. >> is this what you thought you would do, what you wanted to do? how did this happen? >> no, because no one made a living doing this. i mean, i didn't know anyone that was in the arts, really. it's something that i knew i enjoyed. you know, i was a normal kid. i played sports. i got in trouble. i, you know -- >> were you as bad as the kids in the motel? >> eh. >> okay. >> i raised kids in new york city, and they think new york city kids are wild. i saw him and his kids grew up,

even with all the stuff around them. >> uh-hu >> i thought, that's nothing -- >> yeah. >> not how we grew up really. >> yeah. yeah. those country kids, man. >> yeah. that can be a handful. yeah. >> yeah. where were we -- >> growing up in appleton and how you got on the track to be the thespian that you are. >> i just knew i liked performing. i came from a big family. i think you act up, you find your place in the tribe. my thing was to be curiously enough kind of the joker, you know. so that's where it starts. you get it -- it starts out as a social thing. it's just fun. as you get older, it shifts to something else. i never thought of it as a profession for a long time until i did it for over a while and thought i guess this is what i'm supposed to do, because i love it. who knows what level i'll work on, but i love doing it, so i kept on doing it. now about 40-plus years later, i guess i'm an actor. >> yeah. i guess so.

are there roles -- i thought i read a piece once where you were talking pretty candidly about certain types of roles that have eluded you over the course of your career. did i read something like that about you? >> that makes sense. sure. sure. but it's changing. as i get older, in a funny way, i feel things opening up a little bit. there's always a little agism in there somewhere. but yeah, i get often more variety. i think when i wayoger, you do something, people get to see you for the fit time. and they -- they say that's your thing. kind of what you referred to before. and i think when i first started out, there was always this nervousness about being typecast as a bad guy. the most attractive roles, if you weren't conventionally handsome or charming, were usually bad guys. those were the best roles. i played some of those, and if you have some success with them, people say do it again, do it

again, do it again. you become a product. you become a brand. but the very nature of what i'm interested in is against that. and a lot of actors complain about this. >> how did you break out of that, though? >> some people would say i didn't. i think i didn't have a rule about what kind of film i did. and i tried to mix it up. through the years, i worked in lots of different countries, lots of different languages. big films, small films, new directors, old directors. i mix it up. so it's like the target is always moving. you know, catch me if you can. >> yeah. >> so that's not to say that, you know, the -- the most distributed films and the most popular films represent the body of my work. i don't think they do. and you can't scold people for that. but for me personally, from a work perspective, i've been able to beat that a little bit. >> yeah. you're definitely not the bad guy in this project. >> no, no.

and it's nice because, you know, when i'm here and people are kind of surprised. i'm like, really? i played nice guys before. they're like, really? >> they're kids, man. they're kids. i see you as a sort of, you know, i guess my choice of words, obviously, maybe not yours, i see you as -- you are the authority figure, as you said, but you are a loving caretaker. it comes through when you see this that you care about these kids. in some ways, you care about these kids in ways that their parents don't or can't. i don't know what the right word is. but you seem to really care about these kids in this motel. >> it's true. and that happens through playing the scenes. i wasn't that conscious that he would come off as a compassionate person. and it's not something that i was -- that i designed. >> right. >> you know, it's in the story. it's really about dealing with the actions. i was surprised by that. a little bit. >> yeah. >> and i was concerned about it

because he's an authoritarian figure in these kind of -- keep order and kind of square compared to these people that are a little more loose, you know. i was worried that he'd be, you know, always busting people on stuff. >> yeah. >> too heavy. but that's not what happens. and i think maybe it's because i did like those kids. >> yeah. >> and i had to work with them. and i did like thoseeople. and they became my people. and have been making the movie, it was challenging. it's a low-budget movie. but so if that comes through, it's something that was pretty organic and not something i tried to do. it happens in the story. sometimes if you give yourself to the story and not worry about the effect, it will happen -- it will happen. it will happen. it will breathe, and it will -- it will show you the way without you pushing it. >> i think that's the way you like it. >> i -- when it happens, it's good. it doesn't always happen. >> yeah. as i said at the top of the conversation, there's a lot of buzz on this.

he's been nominated a couple of times in the past. we'll see what happens in the coming months. it is a good project. it's called "the florida project," starring one willem dafoe. i love that nickname, willem. name ain't william, man, it's willem. like tavis. i love it, willem. good to see you, man. that's our show for tonight. thanks for watching. and as always, keep the faith. ♪ >> for more information on today's show visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> hi i'm tavis smiley. join me for a conversation with gospel great around sallin and the gospel group. that's next time. see you then. ♪

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ >> be more, pbs.

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