good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. the recent tidal wach of sexual harassment allegations against titans in cable news, hollywood and silicon valley has unleashed a national conversation. tonight we'll talk with gretchen carlson, journalist who last summer successfully sued the late co-founder and chair of fox news for sex it will harassment and she continues to speak out about the from prevalent nature of sexual harassment and her new book entitled "be fierce." we're glad you've joined us with xwrechen carlson in just a moment. ♪

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> so pleased to welcome gretchen carlson to there program. her new book is titled "be fierce" stop harassment and take your power back. this is the first time i've been on your shows over the years, first time having you on our set. >> thank you so much for having me. i appreciate it. >> honored to have you on let me start with what was in the news this weekend. i think a lot of people were

just shocked to see that $32 million figure that mr. o'reilly apparently allegedly according to "new york times" paid to another fox analyst. you're and chore, but another fox analyst. when you saw that figure, when you saw that story, how did it hit you? >> well, i was horrified that any company would re-sign an employee after that kind of a money settlement. an employee who had been dismissed for those kinds of allegations. i was outraged even more to the same extent that that same person was invited back just a month ago. if those revelations were known. i mean, it's outrageous the lengths at which companies will go to to protect harassers and shut up the victims, and it's not just happening in television and hollywood. what i found out in researching my book is that it's happening everywhere across this country.

sexual harassment is an epidemic for women in all different financial categories in all different professions. >> yeah. i think the part of the story that struck me most and i've been 0 dying to ask you this tonight, which is what you make of the fact that the network apparently according to "new york times" accepted his retort and that of his attorney that this is a personal matter and that be we will handle this. so here are two employees of your network, one is accused of having harassed the other and you accept from his attorney, this is a private matter, it's a personal matter. we will handle this and once they get that out of the way, then they go back to the network and say okay, it's handled. they don't tell the network what the dollar figure was which we now know was $32 million. we've got this. now we can begin negotiations on mr. o'reilly's new contract.

what did you make of the fact that the company allowed them to handle this as a private matter? >> like nothing ever happened and that women should be shut up and never be heard from again. look at harvey weinstein. the board there allegedly knew that he was doing these kinds of activities. within his new contract, they said basically go ahead and continue to sexually harass women but if we find out about it you'll just have to pay us a fine. what does that say about company's respect for women in the workplace? it says they don't care at all. and what remains outrageous to me in 2017 is that we're still having this discussion about an epidemic that hasn't been fixed. i mean, we fooled ourselves in our culture, tavis, over the last couple of decades thinking we had resolved this issue. but one of the main reasons why we think that is because so many sexual harassment cases are settled in silence. when you sign a settlement, you're gagged. >> it's the nda, we call it nda,

nondisclosure agreement. >> also the other way in which we solve these issues is that prevalent in employee contracts is a clause called forced arbitration. so you basically give up your seventh amendment right to any kind of dispute you might have at work, trust me i never expected to have a dispute. people don't. if you do, what you nipd out in one of your darkest days is you are not going to an open jury process against your peers to have it adjudicated. you're going to a secret chamber called arbitration and you can never tell anyone what happened to you. and in many cases you're fired and the harasser gets to stay on the job. this is how we're fooling our culture into believing we've come so far because we never hear about these cases but that's why. >> let me be gentle here. i know you can handle this. you're a journalist. it is obviously legal, put another way, it is a legal tool talking now about the nda.

so when gretchen or anyone else signs an ingredient, they're told when they sign this here's the amount of money you're going to get, this is what you're going to say this and nobody's going to say anything else and if you do, you're subject to -- you sign this nda. i understand because again, i've been through enough of these contracts myself, i understand why you would sign it and yet, i'm am bib lent about it because to your own point, it keeps everything quiet. it keeps it secret. i don't know how that aids and abets us getting a handle on the sniper it's a great question. the only other option people like me have is that they would have been forced into secret arbitration and you would have never heard about my case. had it not been for the legal strategy to make my case public and by the way, people can go online and read my complaint. so it's out there. so you're left with two choices silence or silence. that's really where we are right now in the culture. so what accompanies all of this are a lot of myths with regard

to all of this. why didn't you come forward sooner. that is a lowed question because when you're going up against one of the most powerful people in the world, it's an excruciating choice because how do we still label women, we label them liars, troublemakers and worse. they're not to be believed, they just can't take a joke. so who dares to come forward? we had our own president who said that women come forward for money and fame. i've never met anybody who wanted to be famous for this issue. so there are so many myths that surround it. here's where i feel so optimistic right now. since i jumped off my own cliff 15 months ago, look where we are today. we're talking about these horrific headlines, but the positive is that more women are putting their names and their faces to this issue. they are digging deep it find the courage and the bravery to come forward and to me, this is a tipping point in our society. you know how fast the news breaks and how we change on a

dime. we're still discussing the harvey weinstein details 2 1/2 weeks later. that never happens in the news business. so to me, it says finally, there is this incredible national dialogue on this issue and men are getting involved too and we need you. we need you. >> is it courage and is it bravery, to use your words, when scores of women, many of them well-known since you mentioned harvey weinstein, start coming out to tell their stories after the fact? >> uh-huh. >> and what each of them says is that it would have -- in one way, shape, or form, it would have damaged my career. i'm sensitive to that, i'm sensitive to it and i totally get that. and i don't tell people how to live their lives how to make their own decisions and judgments, but what i think i hear you saying is that you chose your career over being a whistleblower. i'm just not sure that that is the definition of courage and bravery. i'm glad you came out and spoke. i'm glad you're on the record

because you need to know that and people need to know the story, however they discover it, but is it courage and is it bravery if you come out after the fact rather than making a choice that my principles, my life, my womanhood, my dignity is more important than my career and i'm going to come out and say this anyway? >> well, i did do that. >> you did, you did. i'm not asking about you. i'm asking since you raised harvey weinstein, whether you think it's courageous and women after the fact to then come out. >> i do because in my mind, i think that we shouldn't question the timing of when women finally find that courage. i mean, like i said, it's an excruciating choice. courage building is not something that happens to you overnight like a light switch that you just turn on. i wrote a whole chapter on parenting. i think it starts in the way in which we raise our kids and much more specifically our sons to

respect women in the home so that when they get into the workforce, they respect their female colleagues. so i'm not going to judge women who don't find that courage overnight. i know how hard it is to build. and i had a great foundation as a child with parents who told me i could be anything i wanted to be and i had a tremendous amount of courage as a kid, was tenacious and brave but even with me making this most personal decision in my life, it was painful and took a tremendous amount of time. so that's why i'm not going to judge any other women. it does sort of fit into the myth with domestic violence, why do women stay. i did a 30-part series on domestic violence. i learned a lot. it's very similar in the sense of women aren't believed, the shame goes on their shoulders. all of these reasons why women don't come forward. and let's keep in mind, this is in the workplace. women just want to work.

why should we strip the american dream from women who have worked just as hard as their male counterparts and why should they have to put up with this behavior and take the shame of it? what we're seeing now is that shame is finally being transferred to the harassers. their faces are on the covers of the magazines. i mean, i really feel like it's a watershed moment. >> uh-huh. if i had a dime for every moment in my career that felt like a watershed moment. >> i know. >> you're a woman, i'm an african-american. i've been through this as many times or more as you've been through this when i thought the xy or z, i thought the rodney king beating was a watershed moment. i thought trevor martin was a watershed, don't get me started. and they didn't quite measure up in the way i hoped they would. what gives you reason to believe this really is a watershed moment and that something will come out of it beyond the embarrassment of mr. o'reilly, mr. weinstein, et cetera, et cetera?

>> i hear you, and i can empathize with what you're saying. here's why. because cultural change, you know better than anyone, takes a long time. and the idea that we are having this kind of national dialogue about this just 15 months after the original person went off the cliff, right, that's a short period of time. in making change. second reason, i have to look at it that way because otherwise, why do i wake up every morning and look at the bracelet i put on my wrist that says "be fierce"? i don't wake up every day probe like you don't wanting to fight these issues, right? but i feel a sense of duty to do this. and i feel a sense of duty to do it for my children and for anyone else who's watching their children because i do not want my children to face the same indignities that i did. and that's why every morning i wake up and i have to be optimistic about it. >> yeah.

>> that's why i choose to look at it in a positive way. and i'm going to continue to work as hard as i can to make that happen. it's why i'm working so hard on capitol hill to change those laws of secrecy. >> i was about to ask you, what can be done, what ought be done, what are you working on legislatively to arrest this development? >> yeah. so this is an issue arbitration that, tends to be one that you have democrats on your side already and not republicans. >> uh-huh. >> so what i have been diligently working on is meeting privately with republicans to try and get a bipartisan bill that's cosponsored. take the secrecy out of arbitration. i'm not asking for the whole thing. i'm talking about baby steps, right? so right now, the power of pendulum where you have forced arbitration is here's the perpetrator with all the power and here's the victim, the employee because it's secret. imagine if suddenly this person

had a voice. maybe this person doesn't harass. and this person has more power and by the way, other people who have that same thing happen to them know about this now so they also come forward. and when i meet with republicans now, i say to them, do you want in this for your wife? for your daughter? for your nieces? for your granddaughters? sexual harassment is ans a political issue. before somebody harasses you, they don't ask you what political party you belong to. we've seen proof that the harassers are also from both parties. so this is an issue that we should all be concerned about for future generations. nothing gets done on capitol hill. wouldn't it be wonderful if this bill could be one of the first things for women and then where would it end up? on president trump's desk. >> and that is -- that's a nice story. and i would love to imagine that.

>> i'm going to make it happen. >> i would never bet against you. given what you've done, i would never bet against gretchen carlson. having said that, these are the same republicans, the folk you're talking to are the same ones who supported and celebrated the guy in the oval office who made some of the most outrageous, some of the most paternalistic, sexism and pay the arc cal stamms an i've heard heard by a presidential candidate so it didn't stop the republicans from supporting him and i got more news for you and you know as well as i do, it didn't stop a whole bunch of women who didn't vote for hillary and voted for him even after he said that. so tell me, i mean disabuse me of this notion if you can, but where is the success going to be find if this is the guy they all supported the republicans and women across the country who vote ford him. >> i know and i hear you. >> tell me. >> how do i handle this individually. >> right.

>> right? i took that "access hollywood" snipe billy bush tape. >> yeah. i took that as a teaching moment for my children. i have one of my children with me today here. and i wanted them to hear that as tough as it was. because i wanted them to know how you don't treat a human being. and i don't really care what political policies he was spewing. it means nothing to me. human decency supersedes all of that. now, that's the message i'm also telling to meese politicians. and if they want to be public right now with all of this discussion about sexual harassment everywhere, they want to be public that they don't support this, well, hen they got to sleep at night. but i know how i'm raising my own children and i hope that millions of americans across the country also took that as a teachable moment. we still live in a free country. people can vote for who they want to vote for so i can't comment on people's own personal

choices. but i know what the messaging is that i'm trying to sell to these members of congress to get on the right side. >> i'm not asking you to name names. i'm asking you whether you are having any success. are you getting any traction with those republicans? >> i am. >> and i'm going back next month and i'm bound and determined to have had a republican sponsor this bill. >> you mentioned your daughter. i won't turn the cameras around and embarrass her. i am curious particularly when i saw her walk in with you how you talked to your kids about this, before this went public, take me inside the book and inside your life and tell me how you -- what was that kitchen table conversation like? >> it was actually the family room. >> family room, okay. >> thank you so much for askinging that because paramount in my decision my two children, 12-year-old son, 14-year-old daughter, toughest decision of my life and most importantly how

would it affect my kids. would they be embarrassed, humiliated, would they be made fun of. never wanted to put them in that situation. in the end, tavis i underestimated their maturity and bravery and i'll share with you that on the day that my resolution was announced it happened to be the first day of school. and i was very anxious about that. and a lot of people asked my kids at school what had happened to their mom over the summer and my daughter relayed that to me and then she looked at me and she said mom, i am so proud to call you my mom and a couple of weeks later when she finally stood up to a couple of girls who had been bugging her she came home and she said mom, i did it because i saw you do it. and in the end, tavis, that's all that matters is passing that gift of courage to the next generation and if i have done

anything to be able to do that for other people besides my own children, then my mission has been accomplished. and i'm watching it happen all over the country now. that gift of courage which is the name of the fund that i've set up to empower girls and women, it's happening. it's contagious. you hand it to one women, it's like a chain of inspiration. more and more feel the bravery to speak up. that's why i remain optimistic. i have to but i see it in my own children. >> how did you process, gretchen, past the what i assume at some point had to be bitterness, anger, disappointment, how did you navigate through that part of this 12-step program that you had to go through. >> in making decision to come forward? >> yeah, yeah. >> well, just like you, i've worked so hard my whole life. i had 25 years in the tv business, and when i realized last july that that was going to

come to end for me at least at that particular place and than it wasn't my choice, i had to dig incredibly deep to make the jump. and i had to do it not only for myself, really for all the other women out there that i eventually heard from that was the impetus for the book. i heard from thousands of women and it was unbelievable to me that it starred happening on the first day from every profession, and here's what they said. thank you so much for being the voice for the voiceless. and when i went back to them and said, could i share your stories in my book, i thought, about half will say no at least. almost all said, would you please? because nobody has ever cared about what happened to me. and that's when i felt the additional call of duty that i had to write this book to give those women a voice and to stop this from happening for future

generations. and i really feel in this book like we're celebrating men, too. whole chapter on men. my unstatistic study on the streets of new york city, you know who i hear more from? men than anyone else when they pass me by, they stop, they shake my hand and they say thank you for my daughters. men out there, the majority of men want to help women in this mission. it's just these random jess, that we have to get rid of along the way. >> what's our assignment for all the men around the world around this country. >> thank you for asking. so to be part of the of be fierce movement stop being enablers because that normalizes the culture. speak up. and stop being a bystander if you can also find the courage in your heart to stand up for a woman when you see somebody being wronged. not just a woman, any other situation in the workplace. if we can do those two things and turn bystanders and enablers

into allies, imagine the shift within the corporate culture. i mean, suddenly women would have a man as their ally and a man can shut it down like that. you hear something, locker room talk, and you say you know what? i don't approve of that. don't ever speak before me like that ever again. that's the end of the story especially when it comes from a man. so men are just as much a part of this movement as women. in fact, i'd like to say the burden of finding the solution to this shouldn't only rest on the shoulders of women. we need men. >> let me ask you the flipside to that question i asked earlier in this conversation whether or not it was courageous and brave of women who after the fact are now telling their stories. there are a bunch of men, some of them well-known, some of them on tv shows this morning trying to explain why they hung around harvey weinstein, major celebrities why, matt damon and george clooney on one of the morning shows today saying they

knew he was a an a-hole but they didn't know he was a sexual predator is what i thought i heard him say on one of the morning shows today, mr. damon and mr. clooney. if women didn't want to damage their careers by speaking out against harvey weinstein, into what bag do we place the men who didn't want to damage their careers even though they knew something? mr. tarantino all of these guys admitting they knew something? into what bag do we place them? >> the lesson learning bag. i mean, i don't really want to fault them either because the main thing is that we're talking about it. >> right. >> we're talking about it now. and we're learning from past mistakes. and that is the path to moving forward in my mind. i really think when we saw that hash tag take off me too, you also saw men hashtags take off. men started coming on board.

to me that really signified that men were realizing they were certainly a huge part of the equation. i mean, in a perfect word, should women come forward right away? yes. should men also have come forward right away, yes, but that's not the way it works. >> i totally get it. >> there's so much fear involved, so many other circumstances. but i see this all as a learning process where it's going to be prosecuting. i remain optimisticing. > you understand i'm not demonizing anybody either. i'm just asking questions. >> you're asking great questions. >> the truth is these are uncomfortable questions to ask on television particularly talking to you about the story and yet the questions i've raised tonight are questions i hear everywhere i go that nobody on tv has the courage to ask. everybody saying what about the guys and was that courageous? we're all having these conversations. it just takes a little different kind of energy to raise them on television. anyway, i'm done now. the book. >> i thank you for asking the

tough questions it means you did your due diligence. >> my questions are nothing compared to what you did and why did she do it and other people are doing it now. her name is gretchen carlson, former miss america from minnesota. book is called be fierce, stop harassment and take your power back." thank you again for your service to all of us and an honor to have you on the program. >> thank you. >> thanks for watching our show and as always keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation about president trump's upcoming visit to asia and deepak chopra. that's next time. we'll see you then. ♪

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