. >> rose: welcome to the program. tonight we begin with the grand jury indictment against paul manafort and his business partner rick gates and a guilty plea from former trump campaign advisor george papadopoulos. >> in his past manafort had worked for former head of the ukrainian government who was a russian sponsored candidate. and in fact when that candidate lost, he went back to putin's russia. and according to the allegations in this indictment that were unealed, millioned of dollars were fun eled secretly from that campaign to paul manafort. >> the manafort-gates indictments are minor compared to papadopoulos. >> rose: because. >> because papadopoulos as was just mentioned goes to the heart of the campaign. you read through the indictment, the facts as they are laid out, he is pleading guilty to lying

now, right. but when you read exactly what they are saying happened, it is not just what he did, it is not just his contacts with the russians. st what the other people in the campaign said. >> rose: and we conclude with zubin mehta musical director for life at the israel philharmonic orchestra. >> conducting is communication. not only my so called interpretation of that symphony of beethoven but to communicate, to have them play with the inspiration. it's my job first of all at rehearsal to be technically profish ent, but at the concert to inspire them. and that they should play with on their heart. d luckily in the israel philharmonic i have some of the great, great musicians to conduct. >> rose: indictments in washington and zubin mehta when we continue. >> rose: funding 230r charlie rose is provided by the following. bank of america, life better connected.

>> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: we begin this evening with indictments in washington. president trump's former campaign chairman paul man a fort and long time associate rick gates were indicted by a grand jury on a series of charges including money laundering and a conspiracy againstjf the united states. it was also papadopoulos a former campaign official pled guilty to making false statements and admitted he lied about hisxd9 with a russian professor who he knew to have contact with russian officials. mr. manafort and mr. gates surrendered to the fbi on monday

and subsequently pled not guilty to all charges. president trump through a spokesperson said today's action had zero to to do the white house. everyone agrees today's action represents an escalation in the investigation of russian meddling into the 2016 election. joining me now from washington is john carlin, now lawyer and private practice, before that he served as assistant attorney general for national security, and also chief of staff to robert mueller during his time at the fbi. i am pleased to have him on this program. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. >> let me just have you do a premmer for us in primer for us in what lead to today and what happened today. >> it looks like today there were two significant developments in the criminal investigation. one was thenb unceiling of an indictment alleging charges that range to a money laundering account that has a potential

penalty of up to 20 years against the former manager for the trump campaign paul manafort. and one of his business associates. and that indictment covers activity where in his past manafort had worked for former head of the ukrainian government who was a russian-sponsored candidate. and in fact when that candidate lost, he went back toñi putin's russia. and according to the allegations in this indictment that were unsealed, millions of dollars were fun eled secretly from that campaign to paul manafort and at that quuct continued in until 2016. also very significantly today that was similarly unsealed, in other words, made public, although it had occurred perhaps as far back with an arrest in july and with files in early

october, was what is called a statement of offense. and this indicates that another individual, a foreign policy advisor on the trump campaign george papadopoulos, pled guilty to making false statements to the fbi. and what it is that he lied about was connections and communications he had had with a professor in england who was linged, he believed, to the russian government. and most igly, significantly, the statement of offense was dating all the way back to april 26th, that that individual had told george papadopoulos that they had thousands of emails that could damage the clinton campaign. and so according to this statement offense, that wab months before that became public. >> rose: just a note also about the grand jury. the grand jury has been in session. they have delivered these indictments, the special prosecutor and his colleagues

have been presenting witnesses before the grand jury on these matters over the last month. >> that's right. and a grand jury is just citizens like you and me and sometimes you get that notice i, which is actually a pe tit jury, that is what most people think of when they think of jury service. but there is another type called a grand jury. and it is the same t is] of every day citizens and they sit and listen to evidenceq is presented to them by prosecutors. and then they ultimately vote to determine whether there is sufficient evidence to bring a federal charge. and so that process has been going on, as you say, for a period of time and they decided there was sufficient evidence and voted to return this indictment that was unsealed today. >> rose: at the grand jury, the person who is under scrutiny is represented or not represented by attorneys. >> so usually the witnesses, there are witnesses that go in

front of a grand jury. when the witnesses go in, they are not represented by their attorney. but the target of a grand jury investigation often gets what is called a target letter. and has an opportunity to obtain counsel. but it is not, to your point, charlie, the grand jury process, it's not adversarial t is not the trial that you see on tv. it's an opportunity to present the information that the investigators obtain, present that information to this group of citizens who ultimately decide is there sufficient evidence, is there proppable cause to believe a crime is committed and if so they return an indictment. >> rose: based on what you have read or heard today and your knowledge of this before hand, is there any linkvi÷i4q te president of the united states? >> well, i'm only going to talk today about what is in the four corners of these charging documents.

>> rose: exactly, that is my question. >> yeah. so there are two different documents. one is we talked about the indictment of paul manafort and richard gates. and there is not a-- there's not ago allegation in there that ties to the president. the connection would be that paul manafort was the campaign manager for the trump campaign and that he had been receiving money secretly according to thek allegations, from a ukrainian campaign that is tightly linked to putin. in fact, it's the reason why russian troops went into ukraine to try to take territory, and did seize territory in crimea, was to support this same candidate that was paying paul manafort. but it's not charging him for any activities when he was

campaign manager. the other document that was unsealed today that shows that the individual was cooperating, this is george papadopoulos, this does have allegations that linked to his activities as a national security advisor to the trump campaign. so this document says that he lied about having connections to this professor who is linked to russia. that he tried to minimize it. that he said it wasn't important. and that he also lied about working for, when it occurred. he said it occurred before he ever worked for the trump campaign. and that turned out not to be true. and thiúó[ it goes through and details meetings including a meeting that he attended with then candidate and now president trump, and it also[ñ details significantly the april 26th meeting where this professor

said that he had met with high level russian government officials and that he had learned from those high level russian government officials that the russians had obtained dirt on then candidate clinton. and that he then told papadopoulos as papadopoulos described to the fbi that they, the russians, have dirt on her. the russians have emails of clinton, they have thousands of emails. this is on april 26th. and that after that papadopoulos continues to communicate with trump campaign officials and continues to try to set up a meeting between the trump campaign and the russians. so that document is more tightly tied to the campaign. >> rose: george papadopoulos was not very interesting to the russians until it became clear that he was associated with the trump campaign. >> that's right. a made it very clear in the statement of offense. the statement of offense is

different, so the first one, the indictment are allegations. and ie0á%11 a jury to determine whether they are true or not. the other document, the one we have been talking about charlie, george papadopoulos, it is a statement of the offense. which means that he has, this is his version of what has happened. and it is essentially presented as fact to the court. so we can treat the paragraphs in here as true. >> rose: we're talking about a lot of money here, millions and millions of dollars that went to mr. manafort and through various ways, he, this is the allegation, the allegation coming out of the grand jury indictment, is that he received lots of money. and then he laundered it. what does that mean? >> if to what they are saying here, essentially, money laundering, there is usually a pred cat or some-- predicate or some crime that you are trying to hide the proceeds of.

and the crime here that is alleged, as i have read it, is a violation of the foreign agent registration act which is an act designed to be transparent. so that people know if you are working for a foreign government. are you supposed to reveal that. and there is a process for it. so this is alleging that in order to hide the fact that he was receiving these millions of dollars from the ukrainian government, that he was working forth ukrainian government, that he set up a scheme to make it seem like the money was coming from somewhere else. >> rose: what surprises you most about this, paul. >> it's this combination. really it is an extraordinary moment that two things have happened. one, the campaign manager of the now president of the united states, has been alleged that he was hiding, taking millions and millions of dollars from a foreign government that is

closely associated, sponsored by, and indeed where the person fled to after his government fell, putin's russia. so that is on the one hand. and then on the same day to learn that cooperating with the investigators is an individual, this is george papadopoulos, who served as the national security advisor to the trump campaign, and that this individual while he was working for the campaign was learning from russian government officials far before the general public knew it, that they had thousands and thousands of emails that could damage the clinton campaign. so these are two significant events. >> rose: it would not have taken a genius for mr. manafort to recognize that he loomed as a target of this investigation. >> that's-- that's correct. there was a lot of public reporting, i think is what you are getting at. saying that he was a target. and we don't know about the

coresponse that took place between the prosecutor and special prowt keer time and his counsel. the normal course would be at some point prior to the indictment that they notified him that he was the target of a grand jury investigation. >> rose: what would that conversation be? >> that can really range. but sometimes you have those conversations to see whether or not someone's from interested in cooperating. and what you have t to balance t against, usually as a prosecutor would be if i reach out to this individual, attempt to get their cooperation, attempt to hear from them prior to indicting them, are they going to take steps to destroy evidence or flee, in which case sometimes you return an indictment under seal. and so that they wouldn't know that you are investigating, and there is the potential for an

arrest, so you try to balance those two things. and we don't know just from the documents. there's been a lot of speculation, public reporting but we don't know what happened in the case of mr. manafort and mr. gates. it's clear-- . >> rose: you go ahead. >> it's clear with mr. papadopoulos, with gorge papadopoulos that he was given an opportunity to cooperate after he was arrested and you can tell from the statement of offense that it says he met with the government on numerous occasions to provide information and answer questions after he was arrested on july 27th, 2017. and so you know it from that. and also from the fact that you have this agreed upon statement of the offense. >> rose: has he pled guilty? papadopoulos. >> yeah, i think you can look at the statement of the offense and-- and it says that it was

the factual basis for a gillee plea. so yes. >> rose: so already you have one person who has pled guilty here. >> that's where-- i don't have a copy of the guilty plea but that is why you would do a staim of offense it was dated october 5th, 2017. so he pled guilty. he admitted all the facts that plead guilty to making false statements. that's right. >> rose: there has been much talk about bob mueller's team about bob mueller's integrity. you work with hims achieve of staff. you know the team he has assembled. how would you characterize them? >> i would just say starting at the top, that that the first word that comes to mind with former director bob mueller is integrity. this is someone from when he volunteered to sign up as a marine to go to vietnam, through his long service as a prosecutor, through multiple

administrations, three different u.s. attorneys offices, high ranking role ntion multiple administrations including head of the criminal division and lastly as the director of the fbi, has earned the respect of everyone that has worked with him on both sides of the aisle. and has always been the ultimate nonpartisan, hard-charging investigator. >> rose: and what would you say the people he has chosen to be his principal attorneys in this. >> he has picked a team in the same mold. andym make no mistake, nothings going to happen at the end of the day on this team without bob meulter asking hard questions and deciding that 2 is the right thing to do. at the end of the day, it is his team and the decisions will be his. >> rose: what happens now?l >> so a couple things.ñi one is it sure looks like the investigation is proceeding. and it is a complex special counsel investigation. and it's going to continue.

they're going to continue to gather evidence and see if they can get to the bottom of any attempts by a foreign government to med knell oure election or related kraims. in terms of the allegations that are in the indictment, that will employee towards, through the normal criminal justice system with the defense having a chance to present its evidence and ultimately go to a jury of mr. manafort and mr. gates peers unless they were to decide to otherwise resolve the case. >> rose: meaning make a deal. >> potentially make a deal, that's right. and with mr. papadopoulos, he has pled guilty and it looks like in doing so, he has agreed again or has been providing information to answer questions. so maybe we'll hear more about that. >> rose: so they may have asked questions, possibly, to manafort andñi mr. gates that literally came from the information they received from

mr. papadopoulos with. >> that we just don't-- that we just don't know. >> rose: right. >> but presumably whatever they learn from mr. papadopoulos they will use it to follow up wherever it may lead in their investigation. it will be part of the picture. >> rose: john carlin, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> rose: john carlin in washington. back in a moment. stay with>l+ us. we continue now with more on the mueller investigation. joining me from washington matt zapotosky, reporter for "the washington post," jefer pegues covers the justice department for cbs. here in new york natasha bertrand, political correspondent for business insider and dan abrams chief legalance analyst for abc news, matter, tell me your response to this in terms of what surprises you, if anything, about these grand jury indictments. >> i think i'm surprised by two things. one, just the breathed of the allegations here. we've got tons of alleged personal financial wrongdoing by paul manafort, by rick gates.

it's covering the gam et of their work for-- gamut of their work for ukrainian interests and you have this guy george papadopoulos who pleaded guilt guilty in secret awhile back. is i sort of speaking directly to the heart of the campaign. i'm just surprised that robert mueller game out of the gate so aggressively with charges that are really broad, both broadnd to the point, i guess. >> rose: you just said to me as you sat down, what is really key here is papadopoulos. >> i think the manafort gates indictments are minor compared to papadopoulos. >> rose: because. >> because papadopoulos as was just mentioned, really does go potentially to the heart of the campaign. meaning if you read through the indictment, through the facts as they are laid out, he is pleading guilty to lying now, right. but when you read what exactly they are saying happened, it is not just what he did. it is not just his contacts with the russians. it is what the other people in the campaign said. for example, at one point there

is a senior campaign aide who suggests that he go to russia. in connection with him sending them this information, talking about trying to set up meetings for trump with the russians. that is the sort of-- . >> rose: just to interrupt you, this is a staff member for the trump campaign, suggesting ge to russia and meet with an official of the russian government? >> you should go to russia was the exact, if it's feasible was the exact quote from it. to talk about some of the things that he's mentioning to them about raying to set up meetings where the russians. the campaign aid se not named. there are four different campaign aides who are referred to in this. so if you are the trump campaign, you can dismiss the manafort case. you can say you know what, didn't happen. >> he was the campaign chairman. >> it was. but you can say look, we didn't know he was up to this no gad stuff, you can make the argument. but this, this is a different game. this is if it's true, and

remember, he was, he pled, he was arrested in july. what has he been doing for the last few months. has he had a wire. has he been helping to gather more information? that's the kind of person who sin credibly dangerous, i think, to the trump campaign. >> rose: jeff pegues you see the same thing in terms of the significants of mr. papadopoulos. >> yes, he was the real surprise today. we kind of expected manafort to appear in court, rick gates was a surprise this early on. but papadopoulos was someone at cbs we have been trying to get in contact with several servelt months back. he seemed to be a minor player, many are puzzled how he ended up on the campaign anyways. young guy in his 30s, seems to have very little foreign policy advisor type of experience. and so there were a lot of people who were trying to figure out, well, where did he come from. and so to see his name released by the special counsel's office today, that was a surprise. and the fact they were able to

keep this a secret since earlier this month that he pled guilty, again another surprise. then you see the detail in the court papers, that he was also promised dirt on hillary clinton but far ahead of the promise that was made to donald trump, jr., a couple of months later. and before the dnc came out and acknowledged that it had been hacked by russian hackers. and so this was a real surprise today, charlie. >> rose: who was the person that promised the nferg on hillary clinton? >> well, this is, again, some of these email exchanges that papadopoulos was having with these store encon tacts, this russian operatives who were sort of, and this is according to someone who used to work in the fbi, essentially they were dangling this information in front of him and in a way, according to the court papers, he took the bait. he was cultivating this relationship, according to these court papers.

he was in contact with these people and trying to set up a meeting with these people and then according to the court documents seemed to try to curree favor with trump campaign officials, telling them that hey, what do you think about this email exchange with these people who have some meetings that are in the authoring that would connect us to people connected to the kremlin, essentially. and so that's what was really surprising about this document today. and george papadopoulos' involvement. >> rose: trump campaign said today these indictments have zero to do with the white house. >> well, what's interesting about that is that in terms of the manafort indictments, the white house actually kind of stepped on its own feet because they came out originally and said well these guys guys were s bad guys. this he were bad guys when they came on the campaign an bad guys when they left. that was an indication that the trump campaign knew that when they hired manafort that he was, you know, engaged in all these

very shady financial dealings. now i agree with everything that everyone else on this panel has said. which is that ultimately the papadopoulos revelations will be incredibly damaging to the trump campaign and to the white house. it's going to be very, very difficult for them to distance themselves from that. it also casts a whole new light on what we know about russia's election interference. because papadopoulos was offered dirt on on hillary clinton in late april 2016 in the form of thousands of emails. this was before it was first reported by the washington most in june that the dnc had even been hacked by russia-linked actor. so in that sense the trump campaign new early or at least one who was in touch with high level trump campaign officials like papadopoulos, knew very early on that the russians were trying actively to undermine hillary clinton's candidacy. >> rose: but this, the idea of money laundering carries a rather harsh sentence, 20 years. >> look, if you put all of these together. meaning all the 12 countsi] he's

facing decades, the possibility of de-- decades in prison. although i have to say, in court today prosecutors estimated that the total sentence being somewhere between 12 and a half and 15 years for manafort. but you know, the real question becomes can they turn him. you know, when we talk about these kinds of investigations, you typically try to do this before you indict someone. you try to get them to help and cooperate. if you cooperate with us we won't indict you. you also do it if they don't cooperate, all right, we're going to indict you. so the interesting question becauses, does paul manafort not care because he thinks he will get pardoned anyway? is he not as worried as someone in his position might ordinarily be because his position is yeah, okay, this goes forward, even if i get convicted-- . >> rose: but he must also know that people who expected pardons didn't get them. >> that's true, look, scooter libbey, it has happened before. but who knows what he knows, what he thinks.

i'm just saying that is something else to think about that is different than a typical federal prosecution and federal investigation, that it throws in this additional wrinkle. >> rose: this is just the first step by robert mueller. where is 2 going from here? what should we expect next? >> absutely. one now we have a court process that will play out, right. there is a hearing i think later this week. this case is going to move forward. as you see hearings and motions and things, we'll learn more about this case against manafort and gates and maybe that will give us windows into other cases but i think the main takeaway is this is like a first step, a significant step, don't get me wrong but a first step, you know. the people on this panel raise a good point. is manafort going to cooperate? it looks like papadopoulos was cooperating. what has he told investigators? did he have leads from there that they're following up. we hear nothing about mike flynn today. and i think that say big question. what is next for him.

is he cooperating or being pressed to cooperate. these are really aggressive moves by bob mueller today and i think they kind of put everybody else in this orbit on notice, hey, you know, you better come on board with me or i will come after you like i did with manafort and gates and maybe to a lesser except the papadopoulos. >> they had pretty clear evidence that bob mueller's investigation would be aggressive when they showed up at paul manafort's residence in the milled of the night saying the no not provision is in effect and we're here to look and see. >> they did. i mean look, you know, from the beginning bob mueller has moved with great speed and great aggression-- aggression in white collar cases it is pretty clear they show up which a no knock warrant early in the morning and wake you up and seize documents. but they're not messing around. they know it is sending a message to people like flynn and other people out watching that they are going to bring heavy charges on conduct that maybe isn't even directly related to the campaign. they will turn up other stones as they are going along and use those charges to leverage people

to get at the heart of what they are looking at. which is possible coordination between the campaign and russia to influence the election. >> rose: jeff, what about mr. gates, rick gates. >> well, again, is he someone who is right by paul manafort's side through somev business dealings in ukraine and he worked on the campaign well as well. so he is a lesser noan name but is still significant in this< t hees in the eyes of investigators. and i think what is important to remember here is what is not in that indictment. what is not there, because we know that there have been reports that there was some sort ofñi email traffic between manafort and olegdarapos scoa which was an russian oligarch and according to the reporting manafort was promising through an intermed area which is another interesting carry that i won't get through right now but slew an intermediary to a russian oligarch with ties to

putin that he would keep him informed or give him an update on the trump campaign. so keep in mind what is not in that indictment. and that is also important. >> rose: but there are hints that that is to come, is there not? >> well, we've certainly heard that from our law enforcement and intelligence forces. keep am mind all of the other players here who have been under scrutiny over the last several months. you mentioned michael flynn, of course donald trump, jr. with the trump tower meeting, jared kushner, carter page who traveled to moscow right, so there are several other people who have been under scrutiny. and you know, this wasn't a softball today. this was hardball from the special counsel's office. and we expect that it will be more down the road. >> rose: we are also learning more. this is for all of you. learning more about the meeting that took place between the russian lawyer and paul manafort was there and jared kushner was there for awhile. donald trump, jr. was there. now we have information or it's

been reported that she came, having been briefed by a high level russian official. >> yes. so the memo that she brought with her to the trump campaign meeting at trump tower in june of last year closely mirrored another memo that had been written by the russian prosecutor's office two months earlier. both of them were an effort to essentiallyeundermine this man named bill brawder who commissioned the comitysky acts they target high level creme clin-- kremlin officials and putin hates them. there was there effort on the highest levels and the russian lawyer brought with her a memo that was exactly the same verbatim in some places as this memo written by the prosecutor's office. and that was a direct indication that she was acting as an agent of the kremlin at that point. >> rose: jeff, they both pleaded not guilty, i know you have to leave so one quick question. they pleaded not guilty. any indication from mueller's office as to where they are going next and when?

>> no, and that is what was so interesting but today. usually they play everything pretty close to the vest. they don't talk much, they don't release a lot of pretion releases. but today there was this flurry of activity. like they opened up the flood gates of information. but typically charlie, the way the special counsel's office operates, it does not leak for the most part it is hard to break through and get information from them. so as far as where this is going next, we just don't know. >> rose: michael flynn is really a sunt of great question. >> right, that is one of the most thering things about today is that he is not mentioned anywhere. one of the things that is interesting to do is, as i was trying to do, was read through the tea leaves of the plea agreement of papadopoulos and say to myself, huh, are they referring to flin here, could this be flin, could that be flin when they refer to senior campaign officials. i don't know the answer to that question. whether that was the case but there is no doubt that flin

continues to be a focus. the question becomes is he going to get indicted. did they cut a deal with him? is he not anywhere as guilty as some suggest? who knows. but flynn is 100 percent of focus but i think again if you view the papadopoulos plea and facts there as sort of the paving of the way 6789 and you look at that as the beginning of a road map to see where prosecutors are going, it's very, very instructive. and in fact you can do a little bit of what you were just hearing about, about how to put the time line together too. of when the meeting with the russian lawyer was. and what they're saying there. and really it's kind of fascinating. >> rose: imagine if you were president of the united states, would you be worried tonight in. >> i think i would be more worried tonight than i was the night before, you know, now you know that somebody in your campaign, even though he tries to minimize the role but in your campaign has been cooperating with prosecutors for months.

it makes you wonder, is he the only one. is paul manafort, is ric gates, are those two people going to flip and sort of what is next for me. of course they would have to have information that could be damaging to the president. they would have to have information to tell the special counsel but if i were him i would be more worried today than i was yesterday. >> rose: and the fear he has is somebody will link him, so wrm there will be a memo, somewhere there will be a conversation that links him too or just testimony, maybe one of these people can say that he knew about this effort or was briefed on this effort. i'm thinking in particular papadopoulos. i don't know he would have much to do with the deals in ukraine. that is what prosecutors would be looking for. you need somebody on the inside privy to meelgts and memos and emails so they know where to look and can find other witnesses to support that case. ultimately if they have to put somebody on trial they have a witness who can take the stand and say here's exactly what was going on.

here are all the contours so it isn't just a case built on timing and suspicious circumstances. you have someone on the inside who can fill you in on what was going on. >> we saw from the president's lawyer, i think yesterday, that they said there was a little anxiety about what was going to happen today. they are putting up a very, very, a very cool front. >> i think it's also worse remembering that flynn's lawyer back in march i think it was said that flynn has a story to tell. and he was looking for the congressional intelligence committee's to give him i immunity to tell that story. looking for mueller or james comey to give him immunity so he could freely tell this story that he had about working on the trump campaign, presumably. so i feel like this front that the white house is putting out about feeling very confident is just that, i affront. >> that's a really good point. >> remember legally collusion is not a crime, right. we talk about collusion with the russians and you heard the response, collusion isn't a crime, it's not. which is why the potential of

dig up dirt on hillary clinton becomes potentially more dangerous it wasn't just conversations with the russians. it was quote something of value which is importantlily. meaning in order to violate campaign finance law, you have to get something of value. and a, hiltry clinton emails or something else that is tangible and sperveg that could be determined of value to the campaign would cross that line. so when you are thinking about this from a legal perspective, remember it is not just 12k they meet, when did they meet did they talk. it's about what did they get. what were they seeking. cuz it has to be something some what tangible. >> rose: when you look at this thing going forward and the president having the position that he does, you have got to admire that they have run a very tight ship, the prosecutors. >> oh, look, i don't believe, even when it leaked out friday that there was going to be an indicted. , people said oh, look, it's

mueller's team. i done believe it's mueller's team. i am convinced it came from somewhere else as to how people found out. because we found out so little about it. it is just there has been a sealed indictment, without even knowing who, et cetera. if you really wanted to sort of scare them for the weekend, right. would you have leaked something about the papadopoulos thing. i mean that's the thing that, oh my goodness. >> and he was arrested in july. he was first arrested in julyment and we're just learning now about his involvement. >> so four months he has been there having already been arrested. >> having conversations. >> and making the deal that he made. >> exactly. >> and its' been leaked. >> thank you, good to see you. thank you so much, matt. >> thank you. we'll be right back, stay with us. zubin mehta is here, he has been the musical director for life at the israel philharmonic orchestra since 1981. in 2019 after 50 years with the orchestra, he will retire. that is the word i don't know

but will explain it to me. the israel philharmonic orchestra is currently on its 7 city north american tour. i am pleased to have him back on this program, back at this table. welcome. >> thank you. >> rose: restier-- . >> rose: retire? >> retire from the israel philharmonic, not from the world of music. >> rose: of course not. why? >> well, after 50 years i don't think any other conductor has served an socker stla that long west one orchestra for 50 years. >> rose: i remember when you did it, when you went there. >> it was 61, started as a guest. >> rose: right. >> from 69, being music director. and it is about time now somebody else took over. >> rose: so what are you proud of? >> proud of inheriting an orchestra that was formed by-- in the 30see, seeing the gloom of yeurm, envelope.

>> rose: as hitler came to power. >> yeah, so in 1934, 35y, he convinced a lot of good musicians from vienna, berlin, practicing, bud a pest to come to pal stein which was then aq/ cultural desert. and these professors, great musicians gave up their lives, also seeing what was coming for them in europe. they immigrated to pal stein. hoverman gave up three years of his life to concentrate on forming this orchestra. called tuscanini to conduct the first concert. >> rose: and he came. >> yes. in 1936 we started what was then the pal stein symphony orchestra. and then became the israel philharmonic. so when i first came i had more musicians of central europe, you know, the orchestra.

the when he retired came the russian influx in the '70s, 8 ee. >> rose: leaving-- the soviet union. >> ex-sov yent union, yeah. >> rose: becauses of the persecution. >> yes. now they have all retired. and now i'm conductorring the third generation which are back from israel. young israeli boys and girls, we have a very young orchestra today. and i think by 2019, after 50 years, somebody else should take over. >> rose: and you are doing a seven city tour here? >> yeah, that's what you said, yes. i don't know. we tour a lot. >> rose: now you have a roll in choosing your successor? >> just on the sidelines. i advise the orchestra committee, but it's a democratic process. the whole orchestra will vote. >> rose: right. they will voted for that successor. >> they are in the midst of doing it, yes.

>> rose: how do you go about choosing a new. >> well, they ask the orchestra to vote for a number of candidates. they have chosen about six or seven. and the committee goes and talks to them. so i don't know where they are down to i stay out of it, actually. >> rose: and you will continue to have a life in music. >> yes. very much so. i have contracts with the-- the florence, in milan. and of course i come to america sometimes. >> rose: sometimes, yes, not as much as you used to, not much to l.a.? >> yeah, i guest conduct. i have much to be grateful to in america. spent 30 years here. and come back to l.a., new york, for a little bit. >> rose: but when you look back on this really glorious life you have had. >> a lot of work. >> rose: is that what you think of alot of work.

>> no, no, i continue. >> rose: you can't be good without work, can you. >> no, no. i have done now about 3,400 concerts with the israel philharmonic alone. when i left new york hi done over a thousand. et cetera. but that is my life. i love it. going from one occasion to the other. i don't travel that much. i travel with the orchestra. with the israel philharmonic, we tour a lot. as you know. israel is not everybody's flavor of the month. but the music that we bring to these countries, we don't know who in the audience supports them, who doesn't support them. after two and a half hours of music we want to have some spiritual contact. >> rose: some3éi spiritual contact. >> yes, that they go away, getting the message of either bay thof enor marlon and say this comes from israel. >> if i said to you zubin, this will be your last tour.

what do you want to play? what would you want to be part of the repertoire. >> you know, i conduct music, that was composed almost 400 years. i can't choose that. tomorrow night's program is all mozart. i love it. >> rose: sure. >> i grew up with it, it's my vienna coming back to me. >> rose: yeah. >> so i love that. i'm looking forward tho that immensely. i'm doing a concert with yits ak pearlman, my great friend. i will have fun on stage. >> they will participate. >> yes, they will play mozart symphony kontsra conti. >> rose: oh wow. anyone else, you would be picking up players as you go around the country. >> yes, in november in new york when we come back we have three concerts. carnegie hall, so we are looking

forward to it. >> rose: i have asked you this more than once. being a conductor is many things. itsee manager. in part. it's psychologist in part. >> yes. >> rose: it's musician a lot. it's leader. it's so many things. >> you said it all, yes. we have to know them individually. conducting is communication. not only my so called interpretation of that symphony of beethoven but to communicate to have them play about the inspiration. it's my job first of all at rehearsal to be technically proficient but as a concert to inspire them. and that they should play with all their heart. and luckily, in the israeli philharmonic i have some of the great great musicians to conduct. so when i go to berlin or

vienna, it is the 15eu78 thing. they are fine, world-class musicians. and we interact. brahms writes a symphony, writes a solo for a hearn. now every horn play certificate not going to play it the same way but they are great players. and they show me their interpretation. and if i i agree i go along. because i'm a flexible person. and if i don't agree, respectfully i say look, let's do it differently. but it usually comes out, flexibility on both parts is important. >> rose: has music kept you young? >> well, i'm 81. >> rose: well, obviously you're in good shape. here is what you said to the times of israel. what israel has given me in the last 50 years i could only give back by having my missions night after night play their hearts out all over the world. >> that's true. >> rose: that is what you are giving back. >> that's true. because as i said, we tour

everywhere. we meet very little opposition, i must say. because you know what israel's situation is today in the world. but we go on the stage in berlin or tokyo or buenos aires, we have only friendly-- rbz it's about the music. >> only friendly audiences. >> yes. >> rose: right? >> yes, beethoven, marler, moz ard, it's what we inherited. and we give back. >> rose: any wagner. >> no wagner, not yet. in china one day. >> rose: one day, you would like to. >> i hope to. >> rose: you would like to. >> i hope. is he a great revolutionary of the 19th century. we play all his children's music. strauss, marler, but we don't recognize the struggle yet. we have to do that. we have to do that. and we know that he was a great anti-semite, we know how nazi

germany used him as their prop gandza. there are people who think that hitler and wagner lived at the same time. you know, they were 50 years apart. >> rose: but. >> but, he was used by them. people heard his music in the concentration camps. and there are still people living in israel with numbers on their arms without don't want to listen this music that they heard in the time of terror. >> rose: right. >> so we have to wait. >> rose: and the time of unspeakable crime. >> yeah. it's not something that you can argue intellectually, it is an emotional feeling that people with the numbers on their arms, they are still sitting in our concerts and they don't want to be brought back to the days of terror. >> rose: they deserve that. >> yeah. >> rose: a although you hope at some point. >> we have to. it is the education of our audiences, and the orchestra, that we should do it.

>> whose influenced you the most as a musician. >> first of all my father. my father was a great musician. he formed the bomb bay symphony. he plays queur tetes, recitals. and then my teacher in vienna. hans furosky who was very close to arnold schearnberg with the strauss, so his knowledge that he imported to us was undeniably accepted by all of us. and then of course we inherited the philosophy of tuscanini and-- a great genius, philosophies that don't coinside always. tuscanini cleaned up the master pieces, beethoven wrote his black and white, that is what i am going to do and i will read but i will read between the notes. that is what he really meant, to we inherited that, the exhilaration. >> rose: do you get back to i hadia much? >> i went last year with the

israel philharmonic. >> rose: that must have been amazing for you. >> yeah, yeah, going home. but pie greatest experience was in 1994 when i went with the israel philharmonic to india after they resumed diplomatic relations with israel. because after the six day war they had broken off. and to go there with yitzak pearl mrn playing concerts for 4eu78, bomb bay and deli was a great feeling for me. >> rose: is there anyone you have wanted to take the orchestra you have not been able to take it. >> yeah, the arab countries. >> rose: they won't take it at all. >> not yet, not yet. >> rose: not even in cairo. >> well, we should have gone to cairo but even the ises rheal government, i spoke to-- myself, 1978 after the great handshake. >> rose: right. >> with sadad and began. >> he spoke to him and he said no. >> he said have i to first think about my settlement. i didn't even know what he meant by settlement in 1978. >> rose: yeah.

>> we never, we couldn't have gone, you know, israel to cairo and back in one evening, we don't even need a hotel. >> rose: but then sadat came to jerusalem. >> yes. >> rose: that would have been the time to do it. >> yes, yes. but jordan once invited me personally to go to jordan. >> rose: hughes ann. >> yes. but didn't happen afterwards. >> rose: didn't happen. >> didn't happen. >> rose: i mean i talk about these issues all the time as you know. >> yeah. >> rose: at this table. do you think we'll ever, ever e ever find peace between arabs and jews, between pal stinnian and jews. >> both sides want it and both sides don't want it. there are powers that play that, the two leaders just don't meet and talk about out. i don't think-- . >> rose: in the settlement. >> i don't think netanyahu and

anbas have met thor than once, i'm not the expert there. it reminded us of the tragedy of the assassination of rabin. >> yes. >> rose: who had the courage and the strength. >> and he changed, sharon changed. >> rose: right. >> the prenlt leadership is not changing. they are happen with the status quo. they are happy to keep the religious happy,. >> rose: were you close to per es. >> very much. >> rose: i thought so. >> very much. per es could have brought peace to israel. but he was not used enough. >> rose: by the israelis. >> yes. when barack when with clinton and arafat he should have taken peres with him. he wanted to do it alone and he offered the arabs a lot.

arafat didn't expect it. half of that palestinian entity would have been in their hands by now. but arafat didn't accept it. for his own reasons. >> rose: he claimed that he would be a dead man if he did it, that was his-- explanation. >> there was such incitement on both parts. and that is still going on. >> rose: is it sure. is i just saw ehud bar ak in london. you should have asked him that question. >> yeah, i should. here is the interesting thing. i met a young israeli woman who is 31, who is now in the knesset. and she is the third highest ranking member of the labor party. >> the labor party has to grow now. >> rose: but she is example of them growing and changing, she is third ranking. >> there is a new leader. he is growing. and israelis expecting something from this man am because at the

moment the-- there is no opposition. >> rose: and in coalition with the religious party. >> oh yes. very much so. >> rose: you have any anything that you wish that you had done in music? i mean we look at the 100th anniversary of leonard bernstein, yeah? you did so many different things. >> i'm very great frefned israeli philharmonic. we are celebrating it next year. >> right. i am even playing bernstein's jeremiah symphony with the vienna philharmonic. he will be celebrating. >>. >> around the world. >> with those orchestras he was very close to the vienna philharmonic was one of them. >> rose: was his genius more built as a conductor and as a exoasesser but also as a

teacher? >> yes. >> rose: and in an amazing capacity to communicate. >> yes. >> rose: he was the great communicator of sim phonic. >> his concerts were ledge enary. and then his res election of the symphonies of maller all over the world. we were all doing it. but leonard in vienna, he almost taught the vienna philharmonic half the symphonies of marler and after the war they did start a new resolution-- res election there. and of course with the ises real philharmonic. he told me with us the israel philharmonic just sight readig marler sounds jewish. >> rose: what music did you want played at your funeral? probably c major quinn tet of schubert. one of the most beautiful. i love shubert very much, really. >> rose: much success to you and toes the israeli

philharmonic. as you come back home in a way. your many homes. >> yes. but india first. >> rose: india first, america. >> los angeles. >> rose: israel. >> step into israel i feel at home. i feel at home in vienna too. >> rose: thank you. >> thank you very much. >> rose: zubin mehta, thank you for joining us. see you next time. >> for more about this program and earlier episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlie rose.com. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

>> rose: funding for "charlie rose" has been provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. >> you're watching pbs.

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