g good evening from los angeles i'm tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with writer and activist khary lazarre-white , he joins us to discuss his work helping young people throughout his organization, the brotherhood sister soul with his debut novel"passage" glad you have joined us a conversation with khary lazarre-white comg up right now. ♪

>> announcer: and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you thank you. ♪ >> >> please welcome khary lazarre-white social justice advocate out with new november novel out called passage. a it is about a young warrior on the streets thanks for being on the program. >> thank for having me >> i was pleased, fascinated you call this kid warrior tell us why. >> i think it's so important when you tell the stories of young black men when they are telling their stories that they

put their own narrative front and center this is a novel about the internal psyche of a young man and what he loves about the meaning of his name, it tells every single person he comes in contact with who he is and what he represents. and he feels it struggles. to survive the conditions he's facing. even though he is from great loving family, the moment he leaves the doors is faced with so many sociconomic conditions so many others have faced. he feels he has to be a warrior navigating that, a tngs of wearing a strong mask and also being sensitive and loving to his family. >> you chose to give him mother and father why. >> i think it's critic proposal we tell more stories about the wholeness, and beauty poournd of the black family. so many grow up without a father, true but so many grow up

with a family and i wanted to show a deep love between his black man and his son that's intimate, affectionate, loving and supportive, a story we should be told more often. the history of our country the reson our children have survived over so many years over segregation and slavery and so in issues because of the strength of the black family. so many times it is painted in the negative light, so we need conversation around the strength of the family. >> you have critics for those who say drama that warrior endures stereo typical story what black boys in america deal with. how do you respond to those folk and on t other end mother and father both in the house is aspiration proposal. >> for those who stay it is ster

stereotypical they don't live in those communities. whether in houston or new york other rural areas it's not just about violent acts it's about growingum around am bentd ambient filling of violence. it's the fear of violence. what's it do to the psyche of a young man how traumatic for so many children to grow up in those conditions. i don't think it's very typical. he grew up with great love and support. also confronted with very real spector of vience. the fact he has a mother and father they're separated, mother in brooklyn and father in harlem but the fact children grew up with powerful influences is certainly true that's the other side of the coin as rampant as other fathers are in our community we also know there's millions oflack men doing what they are supposed to in our

community as well. >> how go you respond to the critique which is this notion that often times comes from the right, that the problem of black america is a problem of parenting if we had more men in the family in homes wouldn't have half the problem we deal wh. how do you deal with people who say we lack black men in homes. >> that's a few different answers, first we have a problem with manhood, mass u lynnity majority is committed by white man in violence it is still perpetrate bid men of all colors. we have mass shootings people talk about that's about mental health or gun. one thing not talks about is masculinity. it's the men doing it. is there a crisis of manhood in this country, yes. is that reflected in the black community, absolutely. do we need to talk about it,

without question. the idea that's the root of the country where 13 generations were born into slavery generations into segregation and 2 generations born legally free. we still have systemic racism in this country and to say the reason for difference in socioeconomic difference for our children is because of black men is putting the responsibility on the victim of the reality. >> so the work you do every day is real work in the real world. >> definitely. >> the condition that warrior has to navigate in this novel are real conditions real negros have to deal with every day yet you chose to tell the story in a novel, why a novel. >> because art at its best inspires people, it's a journey to allow people into another person's experience. i can read about a white boy in a rural community and it stays guys me.

i can read maxine hahn chinese girl coming of age, that inspires me part of the power of art is to let others into the story, thing that's statistics, policy and law can't often do. even though i talk in that language as well. this is not a young adult novel i hope people of all ages to read it. i want especially young men in thirteens and 20s to see their story. there's a way to reach people by sharing their story in this novel. i have a good man in his 30s said for the first time he saw his face on the cover of a book. just the optics, this is my story. it's an idea. story telling. there's a way to tell a story and novel that is not possible when writing a political essay. >> i will come back to the black

boys in a second let me start with the good white folk first. tell me why you think they will read a book and get a reality from a fiction text when many of them don't seem to get it when it's in their face live and in living color on the network news every night. >> i think that this is a country that only exists because of the objectfiction enslavement and continual persecution of black and brown bodies that's what the country is built on and we know that so well. that's only allowed to happen because of white folks aggressively against them allowing it to continue and theoretically people of faith o have not stood up enough. we live in a time the country elected a person who artic lates anti-woman issues, talk about

black and bwn and muslim people in the most horrific way. none of that was enough to stand in his face. that wasn't just the known to be racis racists. those were people's neighbors, people's friends so this isn't going to speak to the good white folks who also won't get into this novel. it will speak to people who truly want a more humane world who reject this inhumane institution we're living under. i hope it will speak to them. >> giving the work you do you know this well. i've been honored and blessed to do nmber of primetime documentaries with pbs over the years about the plight and suffering of young black boys. they don't deliver a love of reading by the third grade they're doomed. so many of them i discovered in the research don't develop a

love of reading by the third grade because they don't see themselves as characters in the narrative. the point you raised moments ago. these young bla black boys never see themselves on the cover of a book. i wonder if these issues didn't exist if they developed a love of reading early on. >> i think the educational realities and outcomes our children face is certainly part of the crisis we're facing. this idea that somehow doing well in school is being white is a very new phenomenalon as we kw there was nothing blacker than doing well in school. teacher costs move throughout the south and have homes to stay in because they were revered. think think part of it is finding some of the solutions that were already there. emphasis on education, desire to ensure our children get the right education it's done by

direct service that i do at brother and sister soul that we do in our schools helping the smaulg small number of young people to love learning, to love to read, to see in themselves aspiration propal conditions. we allow children to attend schools even if they are doing what they supposed to they graduate in 8th grade level of education we are telling them a false bill of goods. the children who push through telling them they won't be allowed to compete. i think math and science and coding is very important and also think the arts is very important, ensuring young people have a space to tell their story to be able to deal with the trauma and pain they face in their life often arts is an

outlet for that and seeing it ripped out of the schoolscross the country means that opportunity is not there. we have to return to holistic approach about education for young people which so many schools don't focus on even one that's theoretically provide an education to prepare children aren't preparing them to be moral in a inhumane world. or are we preparing just for a test. we have to look holistic development of young people. that's key. goes to what kind of citizens are we creating. this is not black and brown issue. if we are not dealing with moral issues of humanity we're not ensuring we have more good, progressive white folks to work hand in hand to work on issues. this is national issue we're dealing with. it's why we elected a president like trump. why we have so many mass shootings around the country. i don't think we're teaching

right issues in schools people are afraid of confront what under girds that. >> how do you team black boys or any child for that matter the value of being humane when they live and witness and have to endure a inhumane world every day. >> that's the essential tenant of passage, my novel. you have a young man confronted with violence all the time and he's tear fie what did violence can do to the human body. he also uses when necessary his physicality and strength to push back at the in humhumanity he f. i think we can raise children, this is work we've done for 23 years, we can raise children to confront massive injustice they face because of racism and other issues and push back at the change makers in a defiant

warrior spirit, and also to be gentle, loving and humane people to those who are gentle and loving and humane to them. you can do both things i think. when you look at leaders and advocates they've merged those two, the ability to confront the viciousness and yet also be humane in a world vision. i cerinly believe we can have children who could be like that. >> i want to go back to a good distinction you made between violence and fear. it seems tome we're good in this country about talking about the violence when it rears its ugly head as it often does but not so good about having conversations about the fear. you made that distinction earlier i wonder if you think the majority of the fellow citizens understand, never mind the violence the fear so many children have to navigate moving through their daily existence around the country.

>> in a word, no. i think baldwin talked many year ago about the ignorance so many people stroud themselves in, cloak themselves in. this idea if it's not happening in your community or immediately a jandjacent to you you're not e of that. and somehow how that makes innocent where your ignorance protects you. we are aware and the fact we allow crime to occur and all of these forms of brutality are allowed to occur because they're striking at poor colored and even poor white folks, once the violence hits other communities there's an uproar. it's not that the violence is new, it's the victim of the violence are new.

so that's a real moral struggle with this country. it's a country rthed in violence. almost has its identity in violence and thinks it can control the sicess of violence with violence which is a impossibility. roughly 300 murders this year. it is decreased strikingly. if you were in most countries around the world and a city had 300 murders they'd be bouncing off the wall figuring out what to do with the carnage. only reason we accept that as a norm we allow that violence to continue. if you grow up in a city with that level of violence you constantly think it's right around the corner, down the street. you come inert to it and terrified by it xd that produces trauma in our children. >> it's one thing for a novel to

make people aware, it's another thing for those persons to care, why do you think they care? if i wanted to i'm not going to but we could play devil's advocate for ten minutes and i can give you a littany of evidence a bounce thbound that don't care why do you think they care zb care. >> i call myself a realistic optimist. i'm based in a family of people incourse rated because of their beliefs who fought back in every single depression in ts country. i'm aware of american history. the american reality. i push back on the idea donald trump represents something new, he's representing something that's been here since this country's founding. i'm optimistic because in the end i believe people of good faith will win. i think we need moral eal eyes

our i'd more allieallies. i know there are people who will reject inhumity in this natio i have seen it. i've seen people protest, organize and contribute. brotherhood and sister soul unapologetic ally supports black and brown children. our supporters are black, white and latino. who support what we do. i know there's people doing it. i agree from a realistic perspective there's not enough that's why we have the police brutality and violence we have and why we have the justice system. it's not that i don't understand the conditions i've dedicated my life in pushing back those conditions every way i can. only way i can do that is i know onday we will win that.

i'm not saying that will happen tomorrow, tavis, or next year but i'm saying in the end a i believe a more humane world will come to pass. that's what we struggle for. >> before donald trump in washington there was movement, as you well know, on the criminal justice front. seems to be in the u.s. senate a bipartisan effort. corey booker on one hand and ranld paul on the other side. number coming together to get behind meaningf. justice reform. that's seemed to have stalled at he moment. where do you think that will go. >> i think some of the bipartisan was overstated. i think some of it was financial reasons. people not seeing it as financially tenable any more. i think we have to frame this in language of immorality. it is immoral to put human beings in cages. it's not about criminal justice

reform. we have to build something up for the small number of people who commit those crimes based on rehabilitation. i know a guy spent 25 years in prison and been in every correction facility and has yet to find one that corrects anything. so what's the point of the institution. has less legs than it had at the time but with the obama administration not enough focus on true comprehensive approach at social justice issues instead biting at the edges. i think it's interesting time with the face of open opioid addiction and response is one of healing and medication when face was cracked we know majority used by white folks but framed by a white drug then it was three strikes your out, increase poplation by 400%. i think that's a long urney.

i think it's one of the great stains on this country and i struggle that will have to happen politically. as a social organizer and community organizer has to happen on a people level. >> i totally believe you on the moral question. what scares me about that dr. king told us we can't legislate reality. so it is a moral argument. i'm not convinced we can get there by making it a purely moral argument. >> i d't think we can any more. talking about a novel and piece of art any more than that can win the argument. i think we need multiple approaches. one of the things i feel fortunate about in my professional career i'm able to move in several spaces. i'm an attorney and central to freedom in all different areas, i believe in strength from the ground up and protest and boots

on the ground. but i'm also an artist and believe role of art and social justice activism are intertwined and art makes that reality. same time moving towards litigation supporting all that it's the letter from the birmingham jail which is one of the most profound pieces written about race in this country and goaltende good natured white folks are not supportive of his movement. it is a moral and ethic al argument through the written word. i think we need that. i think it brings spiration. >> this is an impossible question, your critique you think our community the citizen artists are stepping up to the plate. >> insufficiently. i've been fortunate over the last decade to be close to and

inspired by harry belafonte someone we honored at the brother hood sister soul. manyhood sister soul. many stories he has about the intersection of art and social justice. we need more art, more story tellers, more unapology gettic ally committed to telling stories of social justice and fedom. we're at a time there's a lack of those. i think the attempt to merge the arts with a corporate approach to the arts has silenced so many of those voices. rain rents and difficulty of living in urban areas has decreased the ability of artists to congregate and to live. struggling artists. this is tough to be a artist committed to social justice

issues but believe we need them more than now. >> you're on the front line of the fight how do you sustain your hope? >> i think i am sustained in great -- in great depth by my family, my family has been committed to activism and social justice. by an awareness how long this fight has been. we will not win it overnight. when i look at the incredible strength and fortitude people have during difficult times i feel it is my responsibility to continue to advance that. if they could push through those times i have to push through these times. i feel at the end of the y if you cannot be helpful, if you cannot feel a more humane world will come to pass and we will defeat these elements than how does one struggle every day. i have to remind myself of that even as you said when i'm aware of the depth of what we're

facing and the massive struggle we're engaged in. >> i thank you for the text it's a novel called "passage" by khary lazarre-white . thank you breother. >> thank you appreciate it. >> that's our show tonight. thanks for watching and as always, key the faith. ♪ >> announcer: for more information on today's show visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. >> hi i'mavis smiley join me next time with conversation with film maker john alfred about his new documentary "cuba and the cameraman" that's next time, see you then.

>>nn >> announcer: baand by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you, thank you.

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