good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. tonight, a conversation with a legendary journalist, dan rather, whose career spans a half century. he's written a collection of original essays about what it means to be an american. the text is, what unites us. we are glad you joined us. the conversation with dan rather coming up in a minute. ♪ ♪

and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ i'm pleased and honored to welcome dan rather back to the program. the former anchor for the cbs evening news is concerned about the future of this country. he's written a series of essay that is will inspire you. the book is called "what unites us." i'm honored to have him back on this program, my friend, dan rather. how are you? >> great. >> how is your bride?

is she still painting? >> she is. thanks for asking. she would delighted you asked. >> give her my regards. let me start with this quote. i love how you put this quote at the beginning of the book. the quote is the greatness of america lies not in being more enlightened by any nation, but rather in her ability to repair her faults. do we still have that ability? >> you bet we have it. we have it as a depth very few have it. we are in a dark time now. we are in a perless time because we tend to forget it. so many people preaching division, trying to exploit divisions for partisan reasons. it's easy to get caught up. we have divisions, tremendous

divisions, but we have a greater number of things with more power to embolden us and to make us brave than we sometimes think. inclusion, dissent, courage. this country has a lot of courage. the right to vote. those thing that is bring us together. that's the reason i want to write it. at a time, there's a tendency, particularly of younger people, you have a tremendous audience of younger people, to your credit, who think this is the worst we have been through. it's bad, no getting around it. it's heart breaking what we are going through, but we were pretty divided in the 1960s and during the high crimes, we call water gate. of course that disastrous catastrophe of the civil war in the 1800s. we have been through tough times before and if we remember who we are and what holds us together, we are going to be okay.

>> you were there for all of that, except the 1800s. >> no. >> even you were not there. you were not there for the civil war. the rest of it you covered. we may come back to that. let me chat with you. what seems to be lacking in this current moment, this current american crisis, which you talk about and write about beautifully in the text is empathy. so, that's why i started by asking whether or not we have the ability to repair our faults, if we lack the empathy required to do that. >> i think we have the empathy. you and i may disagree. i agree it's in very short supply, particularly among too many leaders. this is ducking around it. particularly with our present president. there's no sign of any empathy, but the country at large has great empathy and a sense of

fairness. look what happened in the wake of hurricane harvey. those people on the texas coast, neighbor helping neighbor, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity. it didn't wait for outside help to come. they welcomed it. we have empathy. one of the reasons i wanted to write the book, empathy is my favorite chapter, to point out the difference between compassion and empathy. compassion is you feel sorry. you pity someone. as my mother taught me at an early age, when i said well, we are doing this because we feel sorry for them. she said, no, we don't pity them. we know how they feel. a spirit of we try to walk in their shoes and say with the grace of god. that's empathy. the country has a great deal of it. you might never know it if you listen to the president's tweets and what's on cable television. >> you made the distinction

between compassion and empathy. let me come at a dichbt way. there's a difference between charity and justice. the example you gave is great, what we do after harvey or irma. after these disasters, we come together. that's more about charity. what i see lacking is a real focus, an interest in justice. charity ain't justice. >> no, charity is not justice. they are two different words, look them up in the dictionary. justice, we are committed as americans to the idea and ideal of equal justice under the law, no man is above the law and no man is above the law. that's an application of star out there. we are never going to achieve the perfection. but we know, down deep in her head, it came to a lot better than we do it now. >> again, i'm pressing only because i agree with you, that

is the american ideal, but i'm having a hard time just posing the ideals we profess, the i deals and the ideas. it's not just the president. there are other folk along with him. how do you square those ideals we profess as americans with the ideas like the tax plan we seem to be latching hold of? >> well, let's have it up straight. this tax bill is ridiculous, outrageous and heart breaking. this is the swamp in washington come alive. it will benefit the wealthiest people in the country. your point is well taken. if you say, our ideals are one thing, but ideas are another thing. we, in america, we are an experiment to constantly get our ideals closer to ideas. >> yeah.

>> but, we are not there. honestly, race is perhaps the most important talk point, conversation point fine justice point that we have made progress, no question about it. we have so far to go. getting people to understand that we have the ideal of racial justice, but we are miles away from reaching racial justice that lives up to the ideals under the law. anybody whose covered law enforcement as i have knows this justice system is badly out of balance, based on color. that's a fact. it's a fact a lot of people don't want to recognize. a lot recognize it but say i'm the right color. this is unpatriotic. part of this is, you know, patriotism. patriotism includes recognizing

we have our faults. nationalism is more of a chest beating. that's the reason i want to do reflections on patriotism. i don't think we spent enough time thinking about the difference, a deep love of the country. wouldn't die for the country, but recognizing that we always going for that distant star, the polar star, trying to get better. nice when they take the attitude, we are the greatest in the world. it's important, tavis. extreme nationalism, we know what that needs to. extreme economic nationalism in the 1920s lives great depression. based on race nationalism led to adolf hitler. we, in america, worry about the talk of nationalism. we need to talk about patriotism. what is patriotism in the second decade of the 21st century. >> i want to come back to that.

since you went there, there's a beautiful chapter in this book, a beautiful section about your covering the murder of evers. mega's youngest son is on this program. his niece, you know them all, she did your make up and my make up. so, we have the evers family here. i'm excited that tomorrow night on this program, the widow of mega is on this program. not one but two new civil rights museums opening in the state of mississippi where i am from, quite frankly. tomorrow night, she is on the program talking about the two civil rights museums. a fascinating conversation. not one, but two, as i said, and they are separate entrances. you can get two. why did you have to do two and why two entrances for civil

rights museums. back to your book, dan, where you write so beautifully and pointedly about what it was like to cover that murder, the question i want to ask is, when you look back on your career, covering civil rights and so many other incidents and see white supremacy in 2017 raising the ugly head again, the speck tor of it on the horizon, in the streets across the country, how do you juxtapose that, making a comeback, in some ways in 2017. >> first of all, very strong echoes that resinate to the time in 1960. the book, one that unites is the right to vote. evers is one of the bravest men i have ever met of any race, color, creed, religion, working hard around jackson, mississippi. this was the early 1960s.

i recount in the book, i went with him to a voting place where he had people with him who said, in effect, these people are here to vote. the white person standing on the porch, i won't repeat the language, basically, you ain't voting here today. i never got that out of my mind. when i hear the rhetoric of today, 2017, i say, you know, i wouldn't have thought in the 1960s, within 2017, way up ahead, the president of the united states, maybe other people, if not a president of the united states, saying these things that are biggotted, there's no other thing. the equivalency between neo-nazis and running a protest. we are seeing a renewal of some of what we had in the 1960s.

we thought in the 1960s, when we passed the voting rights act that would solve the problem. it helped the problem, immensely, no doubt about it. here in 2017, we have seen political side dangers trying to keep people from voting. we know what it's ant. the people they don't want to vote are people of color. there's no getting around it or denying it. it's a reminder, while we have made progress, we have a long, long way to go. >> how do you think the media is doing in covering the president? have they found their legs in how to cover him because, he obviously has gone at them and they tried to push back and he calls them name and fake news. has the media found its legs in how to cover this president appropriately? >> not completely, but i see signs of encouragement. there's more deep digging, investigative reporting than in five or ten years. in some ways, the media got

their spine. i prefer the press but everyone uses media. it's found its spine. another way of putting it, it's found its guts. the power of the presidency is so large, we have to remind the public that the press is, when it faces the kind of statements from the president, the president saying, you know, the press is these reporters they are enemies of the people. that's the kind of language that dictators use. i'm not saying donald trump is dictator. he has athortarian tendencies. nativism leads to tribalism. if we get to the point where we are a separate tribe to people, we won't be the united states of america. the press has a big responsibility. but, we have to remind the public while this is a problem to the president, what the president says about us individually and the institutions and as a

profession, it's more important for the country, as a whole. independent press is the red beating heart of freedom and democracy. without it, you don't have a check and balance in power. one of the times i was with you previously, my definition of news, it's not original with me, but news is what people need to know that someone, somewhere, particularly a powerful person doesn't want. that's news. >> yeah. >> never anything else. >> you determined that. some with attribution. let me -- >> yeah. >> i stole it from dan rather. because i'm curious and i expect the audience might be as well, why do you make a distinction between media and press and why do you prefer press? >> the first amendment of the constitution guarantees freedom

of the press, not media. i'm old fashioned and i recognize. i think the words are interchangeable. i want people to understand, when we have freedom of press, it's freedom of all media. the press, media, we can't d perfect, nobody can be perfect. the idea is not that the press has to be perfect, we make mistakes. it's press has to be free. it's such an important part of, as they say, the systems checks and balances. can you imagine what the trump administration would be without some of these investigative reports that "the new york times," "washington post," usa today, can you imagine what would be happening if you didn't have that counter balance with the press? >> speaking of press and media, i was tickled the other day, i don't know why this never occurred to me, just preparing for our conversation, looking at numbers and you are like literally reaching the largest audiences of your life.

>> it's true. >> through social media and the internet. what do you make of the fact you were at the news desk and here you are looking good and sounding good. what do you make of the fact that you have a whole new platform where you first started that's allowing you to reach as many or more people than you have? >> i'm amazed, but grateful. >> yeah. >> you have huge, huge followings of people. >> fairly large following of young people, which surprises me. look, i'm 86 years old. in many ways, i have been where i'm going. to have this audience, to have this reach at this stage in my career is humbling. believe you me, humble is not generally associated with past or present anchor men. >> let's put you on the spot. you have a huge following of young people, and you do.

put you on the spot, dan. what is your hope for people following you and reading your stuff? what is your greatest fear for the world? >> my biggest hope is that they will not lose hope and will not lose their idealism. >> right. >> part of the essence of being young is to be idealistic. a great undertow to lose your idealism. what i hope for them is they don't lose hope, they keep their idealism. my fear is they will come cynical. look, as a reporter, it's -- the essence is to be skeptical. an informed, active citizen should be skeptical, but not cynical. with so much cynicism, my fear is young people will say, you know what? you have to meet cynicism with cynicism. no. you meet the skeptical, but

never cynical. >> i wonder if it's too late for that advice? whether or not we have crossed that line where so many americans are cynical and you can't change the way they feel. i saw a report that suggested that for the first time, ever, maybe, a slight majority of americans state our best days are behind us, not -- >> i saw that. >> you saw that? behind us, not in front of us. we are already there and we can't make our way back. >> first of all, i try to avoid it. i'm not giving anybody a sermon, but i do believe in this country and know it's not too late. >> okay. >> but the hour is growing. it's not too late. it's never too late for gratitude, humility, modesty, tolerance, forgiveness, mercy and tenderness. it's never too late for those things.

i do agree with you, there's so much cynicism at the top, at a late hour, if we are going to save the country, i think this is a vital time, decision point for america, how are you going to go? we have been descending for the last year, year and a half, that the uncivil conversation, the tone and tenor of the presidency, which is sinked down, i find traveling around that so many americans are saying we are better than this. we are better than this and we are going to prove it. we have to start proving it. >> you used a word i want to come back to, dan. the word was tolerance. i don't mean to get philosophical, i guess i do, but whether tolerance is the best we can do. martin luther king talked about love. >> absolutely. >> bobby kennedy talked about

love. i wonder, sometimes, whether or not, although, the people i talked to, i wonder, is tolerance the best we can do? >> no, it isn't. i listed it. mark well, on the list of things, tolerance, forgiveness, mercy and love. tolerance is not enough. it is the minimum. we are americans. we don't settle. we don't settle for the minimum. the end result has got to be forgiveness, mercy and love. all love. sounds like a baptist preacher i listened to when i was young. there is an old hymn, love conquers all. i believe it. >> not push back on you, i'm raising it because i find myself in these conversations where i get depressed because i think that's become our standard. that's become our highest goal. >> as long as we can tolerate

one another. that irks me knowing it. >> no. that's not nearly enough. we have to come back to it. it's the absolute minimum. i agree with you, it's not the essence of patriotism, to know that tolerance is not enough. it's the minimum. in the end, you have to love the other person. who would think i'd be sitting here talking to tavis about love? but it's a subject we don't touch nearly often enough. there is one thing to say, okay, i can tolerate this person whose different religion, different ethnic background or color. it's another thing to say, i want to see that person as my brother or sister. >> this distinction you made between patriotism and nationalism, what signs do you see that we crossed the line? some of the internationalism?

>> well, any number as far as economic news. the pullback from saying america first. >> right. >> look, as an international colony, you cannot turn an eye. more than that, it's not only will we be better for it economically, but it's the right thing to do. that would be an example. on race, a number of examples of it that you can't just say, as we were talking earlier, you can't just say tolerance. understanding. we have to have empathy. time and time again, we reach a point in this country, up against the edge, up against the edge now and i'm here to say, with the folks, talking with you, we have to stop, take a deep breath, start listening to one another and try to have some empathy. it doesn't mean give up principles. it's the spirit of -- tavis, you are good at saying this.

we can disagree about 100 things. can we find one thing to help another person or our country. >> given all you have seen and covered and done, given this moment you have dissected that we are trying to navigate through, how do you sustain your hope? >> one, through the power of prayer. i believe in prayer. it's one of those things we don't talk about publicly and maybe it's just as well. that's one thing. the other, i travel around a lot. i meet people, i talk to people. i like people. i like to talk to people. i find, i'm encouraged when i travel. i took a trip with my eldest grandson this last summer. we drove from dallas to mt. r h rushmore, oklahoma. everybody we met had a strong sense of desense si about them. this is trump country. anybody who takes such a trip and doesn't remark on the

kindness and empathy of the american people missed something important about our country. >> get in my car and take a trip. that's all i need to do, take a road trip and i can increase my hope? the new book from dan rather, "what unites us: reflections on patriotism." i recommend it. i appreciate it. thanks our show tonight. thanks for watching. as always, keep the faith. ♪ for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. hi, i'm tavis smiley. next time, a conversation with williams about the opening of the mississippi sifrl rights museum. that's next time. see you then. ♪

♪ and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. ♪ be more.

. good evening from los angeles, i'm tavis smiley. one of the most challenging years every, and the nightmare of 1968. tonight lawrence o'donnell joins us to reflect on that troubling year, of political assassinations, convention violence and the election of richard m. nixon. all laid out in his new text, playing with fire. glad you joined us with lawrence o'donnell in just a moment.